High-tech generator-less motorhome

[Bob Denman]

Time will tell the tale; won't it?

[Thehobe1]

Originally Posted by Laco

My guess is, eventually, solar and battery technology will advance to the point that generators really will not be necessary, however, we are not there yet. Having said that, we are closer then we were, even five years ago, but there is still a long way to go. For today, IMO, a generator is still a necessity in todays RV.

Well, let's see: A Tesla powerwall has 14KW and 13.5KW useable. That's about equivalent to 25 100Ah deep cycle batteries with 50% discharge cycles. The lead acid batteries are around $2500 and the Powerwall is around $6,000. Yes, we are a long way from generator-less RVs. But it is possible not practical. LiIon batteries by Panasonic have taken 15-20 years to get to their present state and I am not sure that we are even close to your prediction...Remember when we thought Nuclear fusion was only 20 years away and now it's barely talked about.

[Chance]

The Fit RV finally published their test report on the new Winnebago Travato with the 48-Volt Lithium battery system provided by Volta. If anyone is really interested in state-of-the-art in this area, this article is a great read.


https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-reviews/...o-test-pilots/


Cost is no doubt very high, but the technology itself is essentially ready — just needs a few adjustments. At +/- $30k retail I feel it’s too expensive for me, but I guess it depends on what people want. Buyers pay that much for RV luxury items all the time already, so who knows if there will be much demand.


For what it’s worth, I happen to agree with James on many major points, including the fact that when you have large amounts of battery and alternator capacity, solar charging practically becomes pointless. This is particularly true for those of us who like smaller rigs because we move around a lot — like every day or two. When alternator can charge 30 times faster than solar, why even bother.

[captmetal]

Originally Posted by dstankov

and in some localities idling the engine is good for between 150.00 - 500.00 plus court costs (per occurrence) since idling engines is illegal and against municipality codes.

On connecticut idling a truck engine for three minutes can cost the trucker 25,000. Would this also apply to rvs. And in these instances the state of registration has no bearing on whether or not you are in compliance.

and connecticut is losing jobs as fast as liberal california, i wonder why

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by Chance

The Fit RV finally published their test report on the new Winnebago Travato with the 48-Volt Lithium battery system provided by Volta. If anyone is really interested in state-of-the-art in this area, this article is a great read.

https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-reviews/...o-test-pilots/

Cost is no doubt very high, but the technology itself is essentially ready — just needs a few adjustments. At +/- $30k retail I feel it’s too expensive for me, but I guess it depends on what people want. Buyers pay that much for RV luxury items all the time already, so who knows if there will be much demand.

For what it’s worth, I happen to agree with James on many major points, including the fact that when you have large amounts of battery and alternator capacity, solar charging practically becomes pointless. This is particularly true for those of us who like smaller rigs because we move around a lot — like every day or two. When alternator can charge 30 times faster than solar, why even bother.

As the technology rolls out and gains usage: pricing usually drops.
What you can tell me about higher capacity alternators that would bolt on to my V-10?

What's out there?

[Thehobe1]

Originally Posted by captmetal

and connecticut is losing jobs as fast as liberal california, i wonder why

This is obviously an extremely excessive fine based upon the relative harm to the environment. Remember, not all of us "Californians" agree with the very liberal politics in this state but if you were born here, raised here, your family is all here and the weather on the Pacific coast is outstanding, then there are a lot of reasons not to leave.
It used to be general tax laws made sense, fines for deviant behavior made sense, housing prices made sense but that was 50 years ago. A $10 or $25 fine might make more sense for the individual leaves a car idling for a few minutes but these outrageous fines are out of control.
Yes, I am one of the few of us Republicans in California, not really 100% behind Trump but am enjoying some of the "politically incorrect" actions he is "performing".
Can anyone agree with fines of this magnitude for such a minor offense? I can legally start and drive my 1946 Cadillac on the California roads and not be worried about a fine and I guarantee it puts out more pollution in 1 minute than modern vehicles put out in an hour! Cough cough.

[Thehobe1]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

As the technology rolls out and gains usage: pricing usually drops.
What you can tell me about higher capacity alternators that would bolt on to my V-10?

What's out there?

Bob, I read the saga of the LiIon Travolta or whatever it is called and I would be embarrassed if i was the designer of that LiIon system. The reviewer excused the LiIon generator from working properly because they used a different alternator in their vehicle, a last minute change. If the battery was being charged properly, the load on the engine should have been only moderate and not enough to have the belt break or slip, remember, the alternator should only have to make up for the additional load placed on the battery...something sounds fishy. I think the reviewers were way too soft on the LiIon system. I would say, based on this article that they are far away from a production vehicle that I would purchase. Their testing is woefully incomplete at this point. Maybe this is why RVs have such a poor reliability issue in general...not enough testing to work out the long term problems before introducing them to the public.

Just say'in.

No comment on you as I enjoy your posts and videos.

Steve

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

As the technology rolls out and gains usage: pricing usually drops.
What you can tell me about higher capacity alternators that would bolt on to my V-10?

What's out there?

The latest E-Series with V10 have a standard 155-Amp alternator. Ford also offers a 225-Amp option.

My guess is that your motorhome comes with standard alternator, so I’d first confirm which one you have, and if it’s the smaller one, then I’d ask Ford what is involved in upgrading after the fact.

I think it would be so expensive that it’s not worth it — not unless you have a real need for more alternator charging power.

[Thehobe1]

If your present RV has a 155 A alternator, may I ask what you need more than that for? 155 A x 14.4V = 2232 Watts! Are you trying to run you AC and hair dryer with the engine running and the generator off?

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Thehobe1

.....cut.... If the battery was being charged properly, the load on the engine should have been only moderate and not enough to have the belt break or slip, remember, the alternator should only have to make up for the additional load placed on the battery...something sounds fishy. .....cut....

We can’t analyze this system like a regular lead-acid battery system. Lithium batteries of that size can take extremely high charging power, thus why they went with a 6 kW alternator.

Actually, I’m disappointed the alternator is that small (assuming James is correct) because I expected closer to 10 kW of power. I expected around 200 Amps, but system seems much lower.

Anyway, an add-on alternator that large with a belt drive does require a lot of belt capacity to power it. In other threads about RAM’s and Mercedes’ 48-Volt alternators for mild hybrid applications, we discussed how getting up to 15 kW is a real challenge, even for talented OEM engineers with lots of resources.

An option is to close-couple the alternator so it wouldn’t need a belt at all, but that requires OEM involvement like Mercedes is doing with some models. Other companies are getting involved also, but all this is way beyond what a Winnebago or Volta can design and build. For now we are limited to belts, and hopefully ones that are designed correctly.

I’ve always thought it would be far better for Ford to offer a second alternator option (or at least its bracket) from the factory instead of these aftermarket companies designing their own.

[Thehobe1]

[QUOTE=Chan

I’ve always thought it would be far better for Ford to offer a second alternator option (or at least its bracket) from the factory instead of these aftermarket companies designing their own.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your statement. The truck manufacturers have the knowledge and experience to do this properly. The RV industry seems to use "practical" knowledge to design their system without a thorough testing process to go along with it. Then they let the RV owners deal with the consequences just hoping that the new owner does not come back in the warranty period.

Of course, this is why we get such a large bang for the buck in RVs. I do not know how they could ever improve on the margins they must work with.

[Chance]

I checked the cost of a second alternator option from RAM a couple of years ago, and it was less than $500 at that time, if I recall correctly. Aftermarket alternator kits are many times that much. Granted, they may not have the same duty ratings.

The same goes for lithium batteries. There is no way a mass-produced OEM system with roughly 10 kWh of capacity should end up priced at $30k (retail). Not when we consider they eliminate the cost of the Onan.

Just like regular motorhomes tap off the 12-Volt chassis alternator to keep prices very low, I expect OEM companies like Ford will have to supply much of the system as part of the chassis for the cost to become truly affordable. Ford is already working on 48-Volt alternators, already has lithium battery technology, and will soon be introducing generatorless power for work pickups. All they need is to integrate it all on a motorhome chassis. If they do, the price should drop significantly.

[Thehobe1]

[QUOTE=Chance

The same goes for lithium batteries. There is no way a mass-produced OEM system with roughly 10 kWh of capacity should end up priced at $30k (retail). Not when we consider they eliminate the cost of the Onan.

The Tesla 85 KWHr battery has 7104 18650 size cells that have around 12 WHr each.

Panasonic 18650 cells are $4 apiece and they each have 10WHr. 10KW/10 x $4= $4,000. Tesla uses around 7,000 18650 cells and the cost at $4/cell amounts to $28,000 which sounds about right. A 10 KWh should cost around $4,000-$5000. I would hope that the retail cost should be less than $8,000. It's just my guess based on very little known data.

The Chevy Volt battery uses it's own structure including coolant channels to cool or warm the battery, adding to it's cost. I think it is a 14 KWhr battery.

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by Chance

The latest E-Series with V10 have a standard 155-Amp alternator. Ford also offers a 225-Amp option.
My guess is that your motorhome comes with standard alternator, so I’d first confirm which one you have, and if it’s the smaller one, then I’d ask Ford what is involved in upgrading after the fact.

Thanks; you've given me a direction worth investigating...

[m0rstar]

We have a 2016 ACE, last September we had 3 100W solar panels and 2 600 amp hour batteries installed, along with an inverter. Total cost was about 8k. We are able to run everything but the air conditioner with this setup. AM Solar in Oregon did a great job, and had it done in a few days.

We recently spent a week boondocking in Nevada, and only ran our generator about an hour and a half total, and that was mostly because we were using the microwave. Of course, we had clear skies and it wasn't too hot yet, so we didn't need to run the A/C. I did run a small electric heater a few times in the early morning hours.

We spend a lot of nights in Sam's Club parking lots and Interstate rest areas when we travel across country. We save quite a bit on overnight park fees, and we can watch TV or a movie or two without running that noisy generator.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by m0rstar

We have a 2016 ACE, last September we had 3 100W solar panels and 2 600 amp hour batteries installed, along with an inverter. Total cost was about 8k. We are able to run everything but the air conditioner with this setup. AM Solar in Oregon did a great job, and had it done in a few days.

....cut....

Nice.

What kind of batteries are they? Is it 600 Ah each or total?

Also curious if you can run microwave from inverter if you choose to. I understand you ran generator for microwave, but could you if you wanted?

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Thehobe1

The Tesla 85 KWHr battery has 7104 18650 size cells that have around 12 WHr each.

Panasonic 18650 cells are $4 apiece and they each have 10WHr. 10KW/10 x $4= $4,000. Tesla uses around 7,000 18650 cells and the cost at $4/cell amounts to $28,000 which sounds about right. A 10 KWh should cost around $4,000-$5000. I would hope that the retail cost should be less than $8,000. It's just my guess based on very little known data.

The Chevy Volt battery uses it's own structure including coolant channels to cool or warm the battery, adding to it's cost. I think it is a 14 KWhr battery.

Tesla is getting close to the magical $100/kWh price point--I know at this point they are below $200 now.

The latest incarnation of the Volt has an 18.4 kWh battery and the Bolt has a 57kWh battery (even though Chevy has it spec'd for 60kWh).

Both the Volt and Bolt use prismatic cells which are larger than the small cells Tesla uses (and thus they have fewer of them).

The Bolt has a cooling plate that the batteries are mounted to--a much easier manufacturing method than Tesla's snaking the coolant tubes around the batteries.

For more info see this video:
https://insideevs.com/watch-chevy-bo...-1-hour-video/

Given time auto manufacturers will take a ton of cost out of batteries...

[JamieGeek]

Here is a couple who installed a Tesla Model S battery module in their 5th wheel:
https://insideevs.com/rv-runs-solar-...del-s-battery/

Note that they still have a generator, and they only installed 1 module (yielding about 5.2kWh).

That battery module is pretty reasonable at $1349 for 5.2kWh:
https://hsrmotors.com/hsr/products/battery_module_85

[bry899]

After reading this thread I was just wondering?
If I replaced the alternator with a high output Alternator (2009-2018 F & E SERIES FORD 320 AMP 250A @IDLE HO ALTERNATOR- $450)

or a Dual Alternator kit (DUAL ALTERNATOR KIT FOR 1997-2015 FORD E SERIES VANS WITH 5.4L & 6.8L & 270 amp alternator- $1300)

connected to an inverter would this be able to power most outlets individually inside the motorhome?

Is my math correct?

Approx the 320 amp @1200 rpm is @29 amps 120v & the 250 amp @ idle is 22 amps 120V
The dual alternator Kit with second alternator is a second addl 270 amps & 25 amps @120v, With a 20% reduction for losses they should still all be over 18 amps each.

In my mind this would be a better solution than the generator, as the generator is way too loud for sleeping or TV.
the only other issue I could think of is any damage being done to the engine if it was to idle for 8+ hours.

If the engine is running I also wouldn't need to run the roof AC or furnace (again both way too loud), my unit is only 25' total and the dash AC & heat cranks.

I also like the idea of replacing the generator with a large capacity battery.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by bry899

After reading this thread I was just wondering?
If I replaced the alternator with a high output Alternator (2009-2018 F & E SERIES FORD 320 AMP 250A @IDLE HO ALTERNATOR- $450)

or a Dual Alternator kit (DUAL ALTERNATOR KIT FOR 1997-2015 FORD E SERIES VANS WITH 5.4L & 6.8L & 270 amp alternator- $1300)

connected to an inverter would this be able to power most outlets individually inside the motorhome?

Is my math correct?

Approx the 320 amp @1200 rpm is @29 amps 120v & the 250 amp @ idle is 22 amps 120V
The dual alternator Kit with second alternator is a second addl 270 amps & 25 amps @120v, With a 20% reduction for losses they should still all be over 18 amps each.

In my mind this would be a better solution than the generator, as the generator is way too loud for sleeping or TV.
the only other issue I could think of is any damage being done to the engine if it was to idle for 8+ hours.

If the engine is running I also wouldn't need to run the roof AC or furnace (again both way too loud), my unit is only 25' total and the dash AC & heat cranks.

I also like the idea of replacing the generator with a large capacity battery.

You would also need a high idle kit or some other mechanism to kick up the RPM's from the standard idle of 700-800 RPM's. (That is part of the trick with a generator: when there is a call for more current from the generator the throttle is increased.)