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Old 04-21-2019, 02:13 PM   #1
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THOR #12751
Xantrex XM1000 Inverter AC Out Breaker (Outlaw 29H)

I have a question that I have not been able to answer for myself yet so I thought I would see if anyone of you might know.

My XM1000 inverter powers the 3 TV's in my Outlaw 29H and I have been looking at how hard it would be to change the wiring to allow the inverter to power the fridge on long drives so as not to need the propane.

As I have studied the Outlaw 29H schematics and the XM1000 manual, I am trying to determine where the circuit breaker resides for the outlets the inverter supplies.

I thought the 15A breaker for the general receptacles in the power control breaker box would cut power to the TV outlets but it does not. If I turn that breaker off and the inverter on, the TV's still have power.

There is another 15A breaker but it is for the GFCI outlets.

Looking closely at the 29H schematics it looks like the 15A general receptacle breaker cuts the AC power into the Inverter..... and I'm assuming the fridge AC power as well.

According to the XM1000 manual, there is a built-in 15A breaker in the inverter for the built-in GFCI outlet but the manual states that breaker does not provide protection to the AC out circuit when used in hardwired applications.

So my question is..... where is the breaker for the inverter AC out circuit that supplies the 3 TV outlets?

According to the XM1000 manual, the AC out circuit is supposed to go to a sub-panel with it's own breaker or a breaker on the main panel. It appears that breaker is not in the power control breaker box since I shut off the breakers and there was still power to the TV's with the inverter on so I am trying to figure where it would be located.

The Thor schematics indicates a breaker box near the inverter. My inverter is in an outside storage compartment. The only items in that compartment are the inverter, the transfer switch, the slider control and the rear leveler sensor. I do not see any breaker in that area. Unless Thor somehow managed to use the inverter's built-in breaker... but the manual says to use a separate breaker.

I have to believe there is a 15A breaker somewhere for the inverter AC out power and the circuit is not left unprotected. It would be good to know its location in case the breaker ever trips... plus it will help me determine if I can move the fridge outlet to that circuit.

Any ideas?
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Old 04-21-2019, 06:14 PM   #2
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Let me make sure I am understanding. When you turn off the AC breaker feeding the RECP, everything on the circuit goes "dead" except for the TVs, correct?

I am thinking that the RECP BREAKER is also feeing the AC input for the INVERTER. So, when the INVERTER loses AC power on the INVERTER INPUT, it may "automatically" switch to battery power to supply AC power to the TVs.

If you can turn the INVERTER OFF while turning off the RECPT breaker, the TVs "should" lose power. If you can turn the INVERTER OFF while the RECPT breaker is on, the TVs should also lose power.

If this is the case, then the other RECPT outlets would be wired on the upstream side of the AC that feeds the inverter...

Just a thought...
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Old 04-21-2019, 06:44 PM   #3
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THOR #12751
I suspect you are correct that if I power off the inverter with the receptacle breaker off, I would lose power to the TVís.

My concern is if I can turn off the 15A receptacle breaker and the TVís donít lose power with the inverter on, that would mean the inverter is powering the TV outlets directly without a breaker for protection.

If that is the case and there was a short or other problem with that circuit, there would be no breaker that trips and creates a possible fire hazard.

I think I will turn off the inverter and verify that turning off the 15A receptacle breaker powers off the TVís. That will at least verify the TV circuit is protected when there is shore power or generator power.

Iíd still like to think there is a breaker between the inverter AC output and the TV receptacles.
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:28 PM   #4
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THOR #4735
is the GFCI outlet on the Inverter itself being used? if not, just plug in your Fridge there, or use an extension cord.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:52 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
is the GFCI outlet on the Inverter itself being used? if not, just plug in your Fridge there, or use an extension cord.
No... the GFCI outlet was removed when they hardwired the inverter. The inverter has a built-in 15A breaker for the GFCI but that breaker is not used when you hardwire the inverter.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:56 PM   #6
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So I did verify that when I am on shore power and I turn the 15A receptacle breaker off, the power to the 3 TV's does go off.

However, if I then turn on the Inverter with the 15A breaker still off, the TV's power up.

I can't believe Thor would not have a separate 15A breaker for the AC coming out of the inverter. That would not pass any electrical code. The inverter does have some protection built-in but the manual specifically says a separate breaker must be used.

I'm going to keep looking for a breaker for the inverter output but I have still not found one.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:19 PM   #7
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I believe that this is what you are looking for:


Overload shutdown
Shuts the inverter down automatically if a short
circuit is detected in the circuitry connected to the inverter’s output, or if
the loads connected to the inverter exceed the inverter’s operating limits.

The inverter itself "should" shut down if it detects a short (or overload) until reset.

Most inverters worry more about "shorts" in the DC voltage feeding the INVERTER, since those are not controlled by the INVERTER itself.

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Old 04-21-2019, 10:20 PM   #8
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I believe your inverter already has it's own breaker - otherwise they couldn't provide you with a GFCI outlet on the front... the factory, though, decided to 'hardwire' your circuits, so they used the internal wires rather than the GFCI receptacle.
Since this wiring scheme does not provide your Inverter as a 'whole house' type of power source, but only to these few outlets, you have a big job to try to turn it into one. One reason is that the inverter scheme already installed creates the 'sub-panel' for this circuit, which gives it power from either of the three 120v power sources - shore, generator, or the inverter. If you try to move this inverter's output into your Main electrical panel, to power more than this single circuit, you would have to create/install a separate sub-panel. Some coaches have a whole-house Inverter, like mine, a Magnum ME2012 30amp, and it is wired to the Main panel, via an integrated sub-panel with 4 - 15amp circuits, for four separate circuits of outlets, including a circuit with GFCI outlets, including the bathroom, kitchen, and outside outlet, a circuit for the front outlets, including the Fridge, a circuit for the rear outlets, and a dedicated circuit for the Microwave.
This sub-panel is the only way to separate these circuit breakers so that they are powered not only by the ATS(gen and shore power), but by the Inverter when either of the other two are not available.

For you, though, either way you do it, you will basically be using an extension cord to plug into one of your existing inverted outlets. Your fridge would then have 120v power while driving, or while on Shore Power or Generator, or if by propane, if you choose.

Because RVs mostly don't use the walls run electrical lines, your ability to run an extension cord, or even dedicated wiring, requires you to chase the wiring thru cabinets and places where wiring is already run/available. Most of the time you'll find your upper cabinets actually may have false walls/covers at the rear of the cabinets where wiring hides.
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:12 AM   #9
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THOR #12751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo_Mike View Post
I believe that this is what you are looking for:


Overload shutdown
Shuts the inverter down automatically if a short
circuit is detected in the circuitry connected to the inverter’s output, or if
the loads connected to the inverter exceed the inverter’s operating limits.

The inverter itself "should" shut down if it detects a short (or overload) until reset.

Most inverters worry more about "shorts" in the DC voltage feeding the INVERTER, since those are not controlled by the INVERTER itself.


While I did see that in the manual, that is not what the inverter manual states for the AC output hardwiring options. The manual gives you the following two options when you are hardwiring the AC out of the inverter:

AC Wiring Diagram without an Inverter Subpanel:

In this wiring diagram, the AC input comes directly from an AC source. The AC input must be limited with (input) breaker protection of 15 amps for the XM1000 and 20 amps for the XM1800. The output is routed to the main AC panel or circuit breaker.

OR

AC Wiring Diagram with an Inverter Subpanel:

In this wiring diagram, the AC input comes from the main AC panel which acts as the circuit breaker from an AC source. The output is routed to a separate circuit breaker acting as the inverter AC subpanel.



In both of the above options, the inverter manual wiring diagrams shows a separate breaker should be installed outside of the inverter for the AC output.

If Thor is using the inverter as the protection that seems to contradict the way the manual shows how the AC output should be wired.
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
I believe your inverter already has it's own breaker - otherwise they couldn't provide you with a GFCI outlet on the front... the factory, though, decided to 'hardwire' your circuits, so they used the internal wires rather than the GFCI receptacle.
Since this wiring scheme does not provide your Inverter as a 'whole house' type of power source, but only to these few outlets, you have a big job to try to turn it into one. One reason is that the inverter scheme already installed creates the 'sub-panel' for this circuit, which gives it power from either of the three 120v power sources - shore, generator, or the inverter. If you try to move this inverter's output into your Main electrical panel, to power more than this single circuit, you would have to create/install a separate sub-panel. Some coaches have a whole-house Inverter, like mine, a Magnum ME2012 30amp, and it is wired to the Main panel, via an integrated sub-panel with 4 - 15amp circuits, for four separate circuits of outlets, including a circuit with GFCI outlets, including the bathroom, kitchen, and outside outlet, a circuit for the front outlets, including the Fridge, a circuit for the rear outlets, and a dedicated circuit for the Microwave.
This sub-panel is the only way to separate these circuit breakers so that they are powered not only by the ATS(gen and shore power), but by the Inverter when either of the other two are not available.

For you, though, either way you do it, you will basically be using an extension cord to plug into one of your existing inverted outlets. Your fridge would then have 120v power while driving, or while on Shore Power or Generator, or if by propane, if you choose.

Because RVs mostly don't use the walls run electrical lines, your ability to run an extension cord, or even dedicated wiring, requires you to chase the wiring thru cabinets and places where wiring is already run/available. Most of the time you'll find your upper cabinets actually may have false walls/covers at the rear of the cabinets where wiring hides.

It does have it's own breaker but the manual states it is only to be used with the built-in GFCI outlet and not for hardwiring the inverter:

The manual states:

15 A supplementary circuit breaker provides overload protection for the GFCI receptacle. In a hardwired installation, the supplementary circuit breaker does not protect output wiring.

Also see my previous post about the manual stating the AC output needs its own breaker and the inverter wiring diagrams show a separate breaker should be installed outside of the inverter.


All that being said, there isn't an easy way to run an extension cord from one of the inverter powered outlets to the fridge when driving since the fridge outlet is on the outside of the coach. I could do this when I was parked since the outside TV outlet is powered by the inverter. Hence the reason I am looking at feeding the fridge outlet from the inverter.
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:40 AM   #11
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Something else also seems a little crazy to me......

There is a 15A breaker for the general receptacles in the main power control panel. When there is shore power and the inverter is off, the breaker will cut the power to the outlets that are also supplied by the inverter. That makes sense.

The inverter also has a built-in transfer switch so it knows when there is shore power or generator power and does not provide any AC output. That makes sense too.

But here is where things don't make sense.... when there is no shore power and the inverter is on, wouldn't the output of the inverter feed AC back across the 15A breaker for the receptacles when the breaker is still in its normally on position and because all of the receptacles are all wired together on the same circuit?
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Old 04-22-2019, 04:02 AM   #12
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As a non professional armchair electrician- I offer a full refund for this free advice if itís crap. The xantrex gets a/c in from the panel/breaker, and its a/c out goes to the outlets; this is the pass through when on shore/gennie. When inverting from battery, itís sending a/c directly out to those outlets- itís not sending back to the panel. Because the fridge does not benefit from inverting, it must be Ďupstreamí from the inverter. Iím not sure how that wiring is accomplished, maybe someone here knows.
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Kickstand View Post
As a non professional armchair electrician- I offer a full refund for this free advice if it’s crap. The xantrex gets a/c in from the panel/breaker, and its a/c out goes to the outlets; this is the pass through when on shore/gennie. When inverting from battery, it’s sending a/c directly out to those outlets- it’s not sending back to the panel. Because the fridge does not benefit from inverting, it must be ‘upstream’ from the inverter. I’m not sure how that wiring is accomplished, maybe someone here knows.
Thanks.... while that does make sense, according to the manual if it is not sending the AC back to the panel, Xantrex says there should be a breaker on the outbound AC to act as a subpanel.

But even thinking about what you said... the AC is not a direct pass-through from the inverter directly to those AC outlets because when I am under shore power the breaker in the panel will shut off the shore power AC to the TV's.

Then if I turn on the inverter, power is restored to the TV outlets with the panel breaker still off.

I am starting to think Thor did not follow the recommended hardwiring procedure that is stated in the manual..... putting a breaker between the inverter output and the outlets.

I am thinking what Thor did was have shore power / generator power run to the power control panel and a breaker and from there to a junction box (I found a couple junction boxes behind the power control panel). They then ran power out of the inverter to the same junction box. From that junction box they ran wiring to each of the TV outlets. That would explain the behavior and why they didn't add a breaker out of the inverter as recommended by Xantrex.


Doing a rough drawing..... I think this is the way the 3A circuit for the TV's and fridge is really wired based on the circuit behavior under shore power and under the inverter. Thor should have placed a seperate breaker between the inverter and the junction box in my drawing.
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Old 04-27-2019, 10:10 PM   #14
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So after not being able to get any AC circuit schematics from Thor for my 2018 Outlaw 29H, I spent a fair amount of time investigating how Circuit 3A for the Fridge and Inverter powered TV’s is wired. I thought I would share this information in case anyone else might need it in the future. I will also explain a fairly easy way to put the Fridge on the Inverter so you don’t have to use propane on long drives to keep the Fridge cold.

To gain access to the wiring, remove the large drawer above the Power Control Panel.

First, here is how the 3A circuit is wired and works. A wire runs from the 15A breaker marked “Receptacles” in the Power Control Panel out to the Fridge receptacle. Another wire is spliced into the Fridge receptacle and runs back towards the Power Control Panel. The wire from the Fridge receptacle then runs into a metal junction box and is spliced to another wire that runs under the coach to the Inverter AC Input side of the Inverter.

Another wire then runs from the Inverter AC Output side of the inverter under the coach back up towards the Power Control Panel. That wire then goes into a second metal junction box. It is then spliced into another wire that runs to the 3 TV receptacles.

This explains why when on Shore Power and the 15A breaker is tripped, there is no power to the Fridge or TV’s but then when the Inverter is turned on, the TV’s are powered (and the Fridge is not) even though the 15A breaker is off. The TV's are being powered by the Inverter AC pass-through and the Fridge is being powered directly from the Breaker Panel.

Thor did not follow Xantrex’s recommended hardwiring procedure of adding a supplemental 15A breaker on the AC Output circuit of the Inverter. Thor seems to be relying on the Inverter to deal with any shorts, etc. but that is not the recommended best practice from Xantrex for a hardwire installation.

One positive thing to note from Thor. We have all seen the terrible wiring with wire nuts in junction boxes on these rigs. On my rig, Thor used Wago 221 Lever-Nuts instead of regular wire nuts in these junction box. These are super clean, easy and secure compared to wire nuts and make wiring changes a breeze!

Now… onto the reason for all this effort figuring out this 3A circuit…. moving the Fridge to the Inverter so you don’t need to use propane during long drives. This is actually not very difficult and can be fairly clean to do. Here is what I am going to do in my coach:

1) First, I will first pull the wire from the 15A breaker that goes to the Fridge receptacle and move it to the second junction box and splice it into the Inverter AC Output wiring. This will allow the Inverter to provide power to the TV’s plus the Fridge.

2) Next, I will then take the wire running from the Fridge receptacle into the first junction box and I will terminate it with wire nuts and electrical tape. This wire used to supply AC voltage into the Inverter and it will no longer be used to provide the AC Input for the Inverter.

3) Finally, I will run a new wire from the 15A breaker to the first junction box. I will splice this new wire from the 15A breaker to the Inverter AC Input wire and this will now provide the AC voltage directly into the Inverter instead of it routing to the Fridge receptacle first.

The 3A circuit will still work basically the same way. When on Shore Power, the 15A breaker will control power to the Fridge and TV’s via the Inverter pass-through. When there is no Shore Power, I can turn the Inverter on and AC voltage will be provided to the Fridge and to the TV’s. Of course, while driving the TV’s won’t be on so only the Fridge will be using Inverter power and the alternator will be keeping the house batteries charged.

Since I am going to make this change, I may follow Xantrex’s hardwiring recommendation by adding a 15A breaker subpanel to the Inverter AC Output. I would run the AC Output wire to a new 15A standalone breaker and then have the wiring feed to the Fridge and TV receptacles.

Here are a couple rough wiring diagrams I put together for the stock 3A Circuit wiring and then my modified wiring to put the Fridge on the Inverter.
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Old 05-05-2019, 06:46 PM   #15
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THOR #12751
So I solved one last mystery on how Thor hardwired the Xantrex inverter in the Outlaw 29H and got away with not adding a circuit breaker to the AC output of the inverter. I am going to guess they have done something similar with other coaches.

When you read the Xantrex documentation and they discuss installing the inverter for a hard wired installation, they recommend that you use the lugs for the AC Out in the inverter and then add a 15A circuit breaker if you have the 1000W or a 20A circuit breaker if you have the 1800W inverter.

What Thor did was remove the built-in GFCI outlet from the inverter and instead of using the AC Out lugs, they wired the TV circuit to the wiring that was connected to the GFCI outlet. Instead of the cost of adding a standard 15A circuit breaker for the 3 TV outlets as Xantrex recommend, they are relying on the built-in 15A breaker that supplied the inverter GFCI outlet they removed since they used those wires and not the AC Out lugs.

I'm going to think about whether to use Thor's wiring scheme as is or go with what Xantrex recommends when I move the fridge to the inverter circuit.

Home Depot has a small Square D 70A Load Center that will hold two circuit breakers. I can mount it right next to the inverter in the outside bin with a standard 15A breaker. I can then remove Thor's wiring from the inverter and connect it to the mini Load Center circuit breaker and then run new wires from the AC Out lugs in the inverter to the mini Load Center.

In any case.... if anyone loses the AC Output of the inverter, check the built-in breaker in the inverter as that could have tripped. There is not a separate circuit breaker as the Xantrex documentation would leave you to believe the way Thor did the wiring.
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:05 PM   #16
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Xantrex ships their Pro and Freedom XI inverters with a GFCI installed in the face just below the monitor assembly. Also shipped are the block off plates and the communication cable. The Pro comes with a 15 amp pass through relay and the Freedom XI comes with a 30 amp pass through relay. If you feed a Freedom XI with #10 Romex through a 30 amp circuit breaker, you should use a supplemental breaker panel for the typical 15 amp branch circuits (#14 Romex). If you overtax the Xantrex inverters by tiring to exceed their rated output, you will get an E-05 hard shutdown fault. This fault will also disable the pass through relay. It is necessary to reset the inverter to use it again (remove all battery power for 10 seconds). On my coach tripping the tripping the 200 amp circuit breaker in the battery compartment won't do it. I had to remove the ground.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
Xantrex ships their Pro and Freedom XI inverters with a GFCI installed in the face just below the monitor assembly. Also shipped are the block off plates and the communication cable. The Pro comes with a 15 amp pass through relay and the Freedom XI comes with a 30 amp pass through relay. If you feed a Freedom XI with #10 Romex through a 30 amp circuit breaker, you should use a supplemental breaker panel for the typical 15 amp branch circuits (#14 Romex). If you overtax the Xantrex inverters by tiring to exceed their rated output, you will get an E-05 hard shutdown fault. This fault will also disable the pass through relay. It is necessary to reset the inverter to use it again (remove all battery power for 10 seconds). On my coach tripping the tripping the 200 amp circuit breaker in the battery compartment won't do it. I had to remove the ground.
Yep...... Thor pulls the GFCI out of the Xantrex Pro XM 1000 and instead of running 14 gauge wire from the AC Out lugs, they are tapping into the wires for that were used for GFCI and using the 15A internal breaker.

Thor is not even using 14/2 Romex solid to and from the inverter. They are using flexible 14/2 stranded wire for the AC into and out of the inverter. It is more like wire used for power tools. They did use Romex to the outlets but it seems crazy they didn't run Romex to and from the inverter.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Judge View Post
Yep...... Thor pulls the GFCI out of the Xantrex Pro XM 1000 and instead of running 14 gauge wire from the AC Out lugs, they are tapping into the wires for that were used for GFCI and using the 15A internal breaker.
Thor is not even using 14/2 Romex solid to and from the inverter. They are using flexible 14/2 stranded wire for the AC into and out of the inverter. It is more like wire used for power tools. They did use Romex to the outlets but it seems crazy they didn't run Romex to and from the inverter.
Not on my coach when it came from plant 750.. Romex all the way from the the 15 amp circuit breaker in the WFCO power center to the inverter and from the inverter to the steel electrical junction box where the three #14 ga Romex circuits branch originate. The only flexible electrical cable is the wring to the two duplex receptacles on the big slide (you wouldn't want Romex there). I rewired the entire coach when I upgraded to a 50 amp coach with PPS power center (5355) and 1800 watt Xantrex Freedom XI inverter.
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:30 PM   #19
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Not on my coach when it came from plant 750.. Romex all the way from the the 15 amp circuit breaker in the WFCO power center to the inverter and from the inverter to the steel electrical junction box where the three #14 ga Romex circuits branch originate. The only flexible electrical cable is the wring to the two duplex receptacles on the big slide (you wouldn't want Romex there). I rewired the entire coach when I upgraded to a 50 amp coach with PPS power center (5355) and 1800 watt Xantrex Freedom XI inverter.
Thanks for letting me know they ran Romex in and out of your inverter. I could probably rewire my inverter that way.

My inverter is in an outside storage compartment and then the wiring runs under the chassis to a hole in the floor that comes up behind the Power Control Board.

Might be worth pulling the flexible wiring and installing 14/2 Romex or even 12/2 if I decide to upgrade to the 1800W inverter at some point.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:27 PM   #20
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Very interesting read, I believe I will copy and print off for future references.

From my experience, the fridge doesn't use all that much propane anyway.
This seems like a lot to get into just to save on propane, then figuring "am I going to over tax the inverter".

I added a valve connection at our tank outlet, that allows a portable tank to supply propane, in turn shutting off onboard tank.

Maybe that is a consideration, but then you need to tote that 20lb tank, which we do on a luggage carrier mounted into the trailer hitch.

Just thoughts...

By the time you get done customizing your rig to work the way you want, you may not want to start all over again, but you will know this one inside and out!
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At my young age, lol...
You could still maybe see me rolling down the highway, on my motorcycle, pulling a trailer with camp gear, smiling, beard in braids...
Feeling The Wind! (FTW)
Rusty
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