‘14 Palazzo inverter bay devices - problem...

[TurnerFam]

since it looks like the 'Violet/Black' wire from the B.I.R.D. is going to the WhiteRodgers coil, I can only assume that it is then the ISOLATOR RELAY shown on the BIRD diagram, and the ISO RLY shown on the Thor diagram, which still leaves the Trombetta coil as the wild card, not shown on either.

The 'Coach Disconnect' shown on the BIRD diagram should be the same as my
RV CUSTOM PRODUCTS 12v Latching Relay disconnect, controlled by my wall switch, and
shown on the Thor diagram as 'HOUSE DISC'

The 'Chassis Disconnect' shown on the BIRD diagram is my manual ROTARY SWITCH disconnect, as shown on the Thor diagram as 'CHASSIS BATTERY DISC', in the battery bay

[TurnerFam]

so, I'll try to trace those Trombetta wires to see both where the secondary connections come from, and where the primary battery wired go to...

[javelin]

Sounds like you are getting there with your last statements comparing diagrams and devices. If nothing else you will learn a lot about how your coach is actually wired and can make your own modified thor schematic. That will go a long way to trouble shooting your current problem and any future problems. Funny how in life we learn the most sometimes when we have troubles.

[TurnerFam]

I have chased the Trombetta coil secondary wires, and it seems that the Green and Black wires leads back to an inline connector, which may lead then to the 12v fuse panel, at least that’s my best guess...

the WhiteRodgers coil looks correctly wired per the Thor and Bird diagrams, as well as the RV Custom 12v disconnect

[javelin]

So can you determine what device(s)/where the Trombetta relay main (high current) connections are wired to? That may assist with the role the Trombetta plays in your battery control system, since it does not seem to be shown discretely on the Thor schematic. I guess you are resolving your coach battery control wiring doing this (which is good), but still have your inverter issue left to resolve too.

[TurnerFam]

I uncovered something interesting, though... Thor's schematic shows a 30amp fuse wired to the RV CUSTOM Products 12v disconnect device, yet it's actually wired to the WhiteRodgers COIL...
Thor says this 30amp fuse is for the 'Bunk Lift PWR'... which I would 'assume' means all the Schwintec motor powered Slide systems(I have Three - Full Wall, Bedroom, and front BUNK)

My first assumption is that the wiring diagram may have this shown in the wrong 'place', as a 30amp fuse attached to the 12v disconnect would probably not make sense, but a 30amp fuse associated with the connection between the Slide Power and the WhiteRodgers 12v coil may. The slide motors are high torque 12v devices.
I also assume this because this coil is for the link between the AUX switch, and could help the slide Power, if the HOUSE battery levels were low.

But, another small but interesting FUSE is one that Thor shows on it's main wiring diagram, on the far left. A 5amp inline fuse noted as a 'INVERTER CUT-OFF', though I'm not sure 'why' the inverter would need any external 'cut off' since it has it's own.
Unless, this is just a way to 'pull a fuse' in the event you want to maintain 12v service in the coach, but NOT to the Inverter(?)...seems like a 5amp fuse would be too small for that.

[javelin]

I did a bit of forum hopping searching on Palazzo Trombetta and found a few people talking about the Trobetta relay actually being the “isolation relay” in the Intellitec battery control system. I found one person recommending replacing the stock Trombetta from Thor with a White-Rogers 200Amp relay with silver contacts because the stock Thor Trombetta had a reputation for failing contacts. Someone also noted a Trombetta replacement with silver contacts was available as an option. I am wondering if your White-Rogers relay being cleaner than the rest of the area is actually a replacement for an original factory Trombetta? The purpose does not change; it’s still the isolation relay. But that would beg the question, what is the purpose of the actual Trombetta relay you found? The main contact cabling on that one may provide the answer if you can follow the wires.
Regarding the other smaller fuse wiring items I can only speculate that Thor sends out their “standard” schematic for your coach and as we have read on this forum many times, the manufacturing techs seem to interpret things differently sometimes, so the stock schematic and what was built might be slightly (or not so slightly) different.

[TurnerFam]

i checked w my local auto parts store for a replacement battery - and was also given an option of ‘replacement chemical’, which supposedly might restore the cells
basically sulfuric acid, or such

might be worth a try

[javelin]

Well I think I would make sure each of my batteries were on their last legs first. Have them tested and then make a decision. Trojan battery web site has a wet cell battery test procedure if you want to try yourself. Perhaps one battery is causing current delivery issues for your whole setup. While its best to replace all together, if only one is needed to get you by for a while, it is a consideration.

I have never done an electrolyte swap, but it sounds messy to me. You have to remove old electrolyte completely and neutralize/recycle it somewhere and then perhaps mix/add the new electrolyte with distilled water in correct proportion (I assume it is not already mixed acid and water). Make sure you don’t wear your favorite shirt, coat or pants during the process because one flick of electrolyte and in a few days you will have some extra holes in your clothes…. no extra “charge”. Pun intended.

[TurnerFam]

after more wiring 'searching', I'm coming to the realization that both of these 12v COILS, or solenoids as some refer to them, are for two different, but RELATED, activities on the 12v side of both CHARGING, and SHARING, of 12v power...

The cleaner looking WhiteRodgers 12v Coil has a Violet(Purple) wire coming to it from the B.I.R.D... since the BIRD's job is to decide when to COMBINE the Charging from the engine's Alternator, or from Shore or Generator power, to BOTH battery banks, I am assuming that the wire's job is to send the 'trigger' signal to CLOSE the 12v coil when the CHASSIS batteries have reached a certain charge level, then allowing also the HOUSE batteries to be charged by the engine's alternator output, or vice versa when on Shore or Generator power.
"Intellitec’s Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay offers a new approach to charging batteries in an RV application. Unlike prior systems that only allowed charging the RV battery from the engine’s alternator, the Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay charges both batteries when either one is being charged. When the coach is being driven, both batteries will be charged from the engine’s alternator. When the coach is plugged into shore power, both batteries will be charged from the converter. If neither battery is being charged, the batteries are fully isolated. The controller also senses heavy loads on either battery to prevent the wrong battery from being inadvertently discharged."
And, since the job of the COIL is to stay closed during very long periods of CHARGING, from either source, that may be the reason that it is a larger coil than the other, and rated at 200 amps, for CONTINUOUS flow.

Now, the other smaller 12v COIL, the Trombetta brand, has a GREEN wire coming into it, from another wire loom, and inline connector, that I believe runs all the way to the dash's AUX switch.
This AUX switch provides a way to MANUALLY tie together the output of the two battery banks, both the HOUSE and the CHASSIS. This switch is a great tool to provide the additional 12v power should EITHER battery bank be low enough that it cannot do it's 'normal' job, such as powering the SLIDES, starting the GENERATOR, etc.
Since this is a Momentary switch, only providing the connection as long as you hold it down, the COIL's job is a temporary one, and therefore the need for a larger size coil may not be as important. It's certainly smaller than the other COIL, and probably not as powerful, nor does it need to be.

The RV CUSTOM Products device is the doorside 'switched' 12v Disconnect, a Momentary LATCHING 12v powered unit - meaning that it does not need a continuous 12v to continue being 'disconnected', or 'connected', and therefore why it's doorside Momentary switch does not have to stay in either the USE or STORE position, but the middle instead. The 12v power is only needed for the quick instance that you either switch to connect(USE), or switch to disconnect(STORE), 12v power to the HOUSE.


the final question is one of the originals - WHY would my inverter periodically DISCONNECT from 12v power, or LOSE it's 12v power, and shut OFF?
I'm believing more and more that it's an issue with a LOW or DEAD couple of battery cells, identified in only ONE of my 4 House batteries.
While the Inverter can sense full 12v power when under small loads, it is somehow momentarily sensing a loss of 12v power when a larger load is turned on. The flickering of the RVs 12v lights is the part, though, that had me puzzled, as 'why' would the loss of the inverter have anything to do with them(?)... but, realistically, the batteries DO effect everything that runs off of them, even if it's a 12v item not having anything to do with the inverter.

My plan now is to test this theory, in the following ways:

A) make use of the AUX switch - tying the House and Chassis battery banks together for more 'power'....press and hold the switch, with the Inverter ON, and then also powering on the microwave or the vacuum.
If the inverter can continue to handle the load, and doesn't turn OFF - then we can assume that the low or dead cells are the issue.

B) REMOVE the House battery in question from the battery bank, using only two of the known good batteries for the battery bank. Now, we should have good 12v power, and the low or dead cell(s) will not be part of the equation, even though we will have less 'amp hours' of storage - but that's not really any issue for this quick test.
Again, with the Inverter ON, start the microwave, or run the vacuum. If the inverter holds up, and does not turn OFF, we've probably confirmed that the battery in question is the culprit.

C) REPLACE the battery in question with a known 'good' one, used or new. It stands to reason that if the Inverter continues powering loads as it normal 'would', the problem has been solved.

D) Find a lot of $$ and replace ALL of the HOUSE batteries : ) ....maybe.

[javelin]

Excellent writeup and it makes sense with great conclusions and test theory: heavy duty coil white-rogers relay for continuous duty battery charging interconnections; lighter duty coil on Trombetta for the occasional short term emergency start interconnection of batteries. It will be interesting to see what a pair of your best two fully charged batteries will do with the high inverter load situation. Good luck!

[TurnerFam]

today, while rainy and not a real good time to try to work outside the RV, I took a moment to stop by and try test A) use of the AUX switch (while inside out of the rain!)

yep, the inverter worked FINE while the AUX switch was pressed, and with the large load, giving it the House AND Chassis batteries to use... but the moment the AUX switch was released, the Inverter shut OFF again.
I tried this several more times, in several differing configurations, but ultimately each one gave me the resolve that the 'dead' cells in one of the House batteries is more than like the culprit.


Now - when the rain subsides, and the temps are a little higher, I'll try test B) removing the suspect battery from the House battery bank equation, and see if the Inverter stays online with a load. Wish me luck.

[Wbrads3133]

I know I’m probably at the wrong sight but I just sign up. And I’m new to all of this can some one please tell me how to make my own thread

[m1noel]

Originally Posted by Wbrads3133

I know I’m probably at the wrong sight but I just sign up. And I’m new to all of this can some one please tell me how to make my own thread

PM sent

[TurnerFam]

SUCCESS:

so, I came to the recent realization that the Inverter was shutting OFF due to several 'low' or 'dead' cells in one of the four 6v House batteries - and I was right(not that I really wanted to be!)...

today, I took time, in good weather(thank the Lord, finally), to pull all of the batteries from the battery bay. What a job : / .... not fun, but now it's done.
The hardest parts are removing the 'brace brackets' that hold down the batteries to keep them from moving, and lifting these heavy suckers OUT of the bay! I think I now need some 'icy hot' : )

I cleaned up each battery, as best I could, with baking soda, water, and lots of wipes. I also used a slender finger nail file(the sandpaper type) to really clean off the connectors, and the wire ends.

I then took the 12v reading for each battery, and the multimeter told me that each of the first 3 had readings of 6.2 or better, while number 4 was a little lower at 6.1 or so.
I then took the specific gravity reading for each cell, in each battery. For the most part, the cells in the first 3 had good or good/fair border line readings, but the battery cells in number 4 were all in the 'not so good' low reading, as I previously suspected.

Knowing now that I had 3 good batteries, I put those back in the bay and wired two in Series to give me 12v output, leaving number 3 to suffer alone until number 4 might be back in business.
The two batteries were wired successfully, and the motorhome's 12v system was back in business. Lights worked, and the Inverter panel's DC readout was showing 12.4 or so. Since the RV is in storage, with only some solar to keep them trickle charged, and with few days lately of any substantial sun, this is about what I expected.

I took the 12.4 as a fine place to TEST the Inverter - I turned it on and it powered up just like it should.

I then put a load on it by opening the fridge door, and the fridge light came on. The then turned the fridge temp knob to power up the compressor - and the compressor came on - the Inverter continued working.. Nice.
I then ALSO added a vacuum... and still successful.
I then ALSO added the MICROWAVE! ... and the Inverter continued. NICE!

O.K... so now we know that lows cells in one of the house batteries can eventually cause the inverter to lose power, maybe at first only with large loads, but also eventually even with smaller loads, over time.
I imagine that while I was 'only' watching the bedroom 12v TV, along with the satellite 120v RECEIVER, when the instance first happened, it was probably due to the fridge COMPRESSOR kicking on at that time, which I why I first lost power to the Inverter.

Good News, and even if it takes a while to replenish or replace the bad battery, I can continue to use the coach just fine - I just won't have as much 'time' on the inverter as before.


----------------------------------
The plan now is to wash out battery number 4, replenish it's chemicals, and send it through several full charge and discharge cycles to see if it will revive.
If so, I've saved a battery and saved money... if not, I've made a valiant try, and will get a replacement battery - oh well.

all in all, it's a great learning time when you have an issue and you want to try to 'figure out' why it's happening. Even having a coach over 4 years, traveling over 86,000 miles into Alaska, Canada, and most everywhere in the continental U.S., I've never really 'had' to know the specifics of the devices in the Inverter bay - the RV CUSTOM PRODUCTS 12v cutoff(latching magnetized relay with doorside momentary switch), the B.I.R.D. BiDirectional Isolation Relay(sensor for properly combining the Chassis and House battery charging), the WhiteRodgers 12v DC Continuous COIL(controlled by the B.I.R.D. to pass thru CHARGING to the House or Chassis batteries), or the Trombetta 12v DC coil(for the dash AUX 'battery boost' momentary switch to combine the House and Chassis batteries temporarily)... or too terribly much about the batteries since they've performed so well over 4 1/2 years. And, they're not done yet!


and THANKS for everyone's input : )

[m1noel]

I've followed this thread from the start. I didn't post because I have no input based on any experience or expertise. But I'm pretty sure your detailed exploration of your problems will come in handy at some time in the future. Thanks for sharing with us.
Mike

[revjeffrey]

Originally Posted by m1noel

I've followed this thread from the start. I didn't post because I have no input based on any experience or expertise. But I'm pretty sure your detailed exploration of your problems will come in handy at some time in the future. Thanks for sharing with us.
Mike

X2 Awesome thread ! I have learned a ton.

[javelin]

Congrats on a well done, detailed write up and methodical exploration of your battery control configuration and its problem. Many folks can learn a lot from this exchange. The icing on the cake is that you resolved the problem and will try to repair the failed battery. I look forward to learning how that turns out. Maybe wear a plastic rain coat when you do that though.....it is amazing how battery acid gets places you don't want it to even when you are careful.

[TurnerFam]

today I have drained the battery cells, refilled with distilled water, and am running it thru a full charge cycle .... I'll then redrain, fill with the battery acid/distilled water, and continue the charge and discharge cycles to get a better idea of the voltage and specific gravity readings... and see if it can be revived to appropriate levels.

[TurnerFam]

o.k., so now I've started the 'reviving' of the 6v battery process...

-drained the battery, saving the 'used' battery fluids, just in case
-filled with distilled water
-charged overnight
-drained battery again
-added battery acid, and while not enough to fill each cell, I added back enough of the 'leftover' fluid to top each cell off
-charged overnight again

Checked voltage: 6.2 or so
Checked cell specific gravity: none registered very much

-recharged the battery many more times over the next two days
-saw the specific gravity starting to change to 'better' levels, though not yet there

REALIZATION:
maybe not a biggy, but realized I was using a 12v 8amp Charger for a 6v battery : / oh well, I guess that's why the charger would never show the battery as 'charged'....
-decided to get one of the other 'good' 6v batteries, wire in series, and produce a 12v battery 'bank' that the charger could then properly charge... SUCCESS.
The battery charger now charges fully, then goes into maintenance mode, and the battery bank reads 12.8 volts at rest.

-Specific gravity is rising slightly for each cell after each charge

tomorrow, weather permitting(snow, ice, rain? in western NC, n GA), I'll add these two batteries back to the 4 battery bank at the RV and see how the Inverter then holds up under a load...