Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Brands and Products > Thor Motor Coach | Class A, Class B+ & Class C Motorhomes
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-03-2019, 01:54 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 34J
State: Michigan
Posts: 27
THOR #12625
Bath Fan Not Turning on Right Away

2019 Hurricane 34j. Has firefly system.

Watch this video https://youtu.be/vMl4EfpA9To

When you press the button to turn the fan on, it "tries" to start, but doesn't. Like a jump start. I can do it on and off a few times with it not starting and staying on as long as I space then on/off presses. I have to do it on/off quickly and then after 2-3 times it will start and stay on.

Here is the kicker. It ONLY does this when plugged into shore power or the generator is on.

It does NOT do it when only running on house batteries. On house batteries only, it starts immediately (and stays on) every time.

I "chatted" with Thor CS today. They said it was working as designed. Can't imagine that is true.... anyone have any thoughts?
__________________

__________________
-----------------------------------------------------
2019 Thor Motor Coach Hurricane 34J | Front Sumos | Front Koni FSD | CHT Front & Rear | Roadmaster Steering Stabilizer
Hurricane34J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 04:01 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2013 ACE 30.1
State: Alberta
Posts: 917
THOR #2631
Interesting problem. I don't have a Firefly system just to be clear. So AC power sources feeding the converter/coach batteries seem to cause your issue.

Does any other Firefly controlled fan or load being turned on have the same problem, when you are on shore/gen power?

I think the Firefly system uses a capacitive touch sensitive screen, so perhaps the AC sources are causing or inducing some electrical “noise” on the line that the Firefly controller sees as off signals when you are turning the fan on? This is almost behaving like a mechanical switch with contact bounce in digital circuits. You might try contacting Firefly tech support with your system model info and see if they have heard of this before. Could be simply a bad ground somewhere that is allowing electrical noise to interfere with this fan control. Failing that a flakey Firefly control pad maybe? Good one....2 points for a head scratcher.
__________________

__________________
javelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 12:07 PM   #3
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 34J
State: Michigan
Posts: 27
THOR #12625
Quote:
Originally Posted by javelin View Post
Interesting problem. I don't have a Firefly system just to be clear. So AC power sources feeding the converter/coach batteries seem to cause your issue.

Does any other Firefly controlled fan or load being turned on have the same problem, when you are on shore/gen power?

I think the Firefly system uses a capacitive touch sensitive screen, so perhaps the AC sources are causing or inducing some electrical “noise” on the line that the Firefly controller sees as off signals when you are turning the fan on? This is almost behaving like a mechanical switch with contact bounce in digital circuits. You might try contacting Firefly tech support with your system model info and see if they have heard of this before. Could be simply a bad ground somewhere that is allowing electrical noise to interfere with this fan control. Failing that a flakey Firefly control pad maybe? Good one....2 points for a head scratcher.
Thanks for the reply and insight. I failed to mention that I did contact Firefly. First, they are truly awesome! I have had other issues and they have promptly fixed those either by sending replacement hardware or updating programming when there were errors. They have gone above and beyond and try to troubleshoot other problems that were not directly related to Firefly. They thought this is a dirty ground issue. They thought Thor would be able to troubleshoot with that information as Firefly had previously spoken to Thor about this similar type issue. However the customer service representative Jason when I spoke to him yesterday said it was working by design. I still don't believe that this is by design. I'm not sure where to start with a dirty ground as it relates to shore power or generator power. I have all the wiring diagrams from Firefly and Thor for my coach. I am not finding the issue.

One idea I had was to make Firefly intiate a relay to turn on the fan instead of directly. I may end up doing that.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------
2019 Thor Motor Coach Hurricane 34J | Front Sumos | Front Koni FSD | CHT Front & Rear | Roadmaster Steering Stabilizer
Hurricane34J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 01:20 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2013 ACE 30.1
State: Alberta
Posts: 917
THOR #2631
You did not mention if other coach loads were also being affected by this same control issue? Perhaps a second fan with the same issue?
So either the Firefly system is controlling your fan(s) motor by direct wire connection to the fan (with a small relay either located in the control pad (likely not if low profile).....or located at the fan).......or the control pad is wirelessly controlling the fan(s) which would definitely require a wireless receiver located near the fan to receive the control signals and a mini relay to connect the 12vdc to the fan when required.
If you have a second similar fan in the coach controlled wirelessly (which is working fine) you could try swapping the fan receiver modules (if they are the same module) to see if you just have a sensitive receiver module on the one problem fan.
Failing that approach, you could try to go through your AC system (safely) tightening all ground connections starting with the transfer switch (a good idea to check all connections anyway based on the poor connections discussed on this forum). Since both shore and gen cause enough AC/electrical “noise” to cause this problem the transfer switch and AC breaker panel connections are a good place to start checking for good and tight connections. I would think that the coach batteries would act like big filter capacitors to help filter any AC noise coming through the converter into the DC circuits. The converter would also have its own filter caps of course.....and the fan receiver module would use DC power for its electronics too. I would be surprised if AC power RF (through the air) harmonics are interfering with the fan wireless receiver......but you never know.
__________________
javelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 01:46 PM   #5
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 34J
State: Michigan
Posts: 27
THOR #12625
Quote:
Originally Posted by javelin View Post
You did not mention if other coach loads were also being affected by this same control issue? Perhaps a second fan with the same issue?
So either the Firefly system is controlling your fan(s) motor by direct wire connection to the fan (with a small relay either located in the control pad (likely not if low profile).....or located at the fan).......or the control pad is wirelessly controlling the fan(s) which would definitely require a wireless receiver located near the fan to receive the control signals and a mini relay to connect the 12vdc to the fan when required.
If you have a second similar fan in the coach controlled wirelessly (which is working fine) you could try swapping the fan receiver modules (if they are the same module) to see if you just have a sensitive receiver module on the one problem fan.
Failing that approach, you could try to go through your AC system (safely) tightening all ground connections starting with the transfer switch (a good idea to check all connections anyway based on the poor connections discussed on this forum). Since both shore and gen cause enough AC/electrical “noise” to cause this problem the transfer switch and AC breaker panel connections are a good place to start checking for good and tight connections. I would think that the coach batteries would act like big filter capacitors to help filter any AC noise coming through the converter into the DC circuits. The converter would also have its own filter caps of course.....and the fan receiver module would use DC power for its electronics too. I would be surprised if AC power RF (through the air) harmonics are interfering with the fan wireless receiver......but you never know.
Interesting insight.
There are no other devices having the same issue. The other fan in the coach is not controlled oddly by Firefly. It has a traditional toggle switch. I do believe the relay with Firefly is the issue but Firefly thinks it is a coach ground problem and not their system. Firefly has control boards where all devices come into. The G9 board is where the inputs (tank sensors as an example) and outputs (fans, lights etc) terminate.

I agree in batteries. As far as I know, the shore power and generator are just powering the battery charger. So it seems that Firefly would not know or act differently. first I was thinking that it was a amperage problem. The fan was pulling too much amperage and overloading the circuit. However after talking to Firefly and reviewing the g9 board amperage and the amperage requirements of the fan, the Firefly system is providing up to 3 amps and the fan is 1.4 amps. So that doesn't seem like the issue. However I wonder if the software of firefly is less than three amps and the customer service person is not aware of this. Again I think that if I was to put a relay in that wood expose that as to the real issue or perhaps it would still just solve the problem in general. however that still doesn't explain why it only doesn't work on Shore or generator power.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------
2019 Thor Motor Coach Hurricane 34J | Front Sumos | Front Koni FSD | CHT Front & Rear | Roadmaster Steering Stabilizer
Hurricane34J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 02:32 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2013 ACE 30.1
State: Alberta
Posts: 917
THOR #2631
Hi again. I am not sure I follow your software comment related to the 3 amp load capability; but if it was a software issue I would expect many other customers (with that software) would have the same problem.



It is possible that Firefly uses a transistor (not a relay) to control the problem fan (but I would lean to a relay since it is a motorized device)…….but it would still either require hard wire between controller panel and the fan, or a wireless approach for control. If wireless then there must be a small receiver module located near the fan or close by (with some kind of repair access) that actually turns the 12vdc on/off to the fan motor itself. If you can find the fan module you could try to obtain a replacement and see if that cures the issue (this assumes the module is flakey or sensitive to any AC noise coming through (or induced) on the 12vdc lines). Since this fan is the only problem load it would seem more likely that the receiver module at the fan is the problem (again assuming a wireless control). Maybe other owners will chime in who have had this issue and will suggest their final solution.


You could try your own relay control with a manual switch hard wire solution, but that defeats the Firefly controller you paid $$ for. I agree with you that this is not normal operation. The final fallback since I assume you are still under warrantee is the Dealer…….but at this time of year it is hard to get in and they have your coach for as long as it takes. You could ask Firefly to confirm if this is a wireless control of the fan install and ask them for a replacement receiver module if it is.
__________________
javelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 02:55 PM   #7
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 34J
State: Michigan
Posts: 27
THOR #12625
Quote:
Originally Posted by javelin View Post
Hi again. I am not sure I follow your software comment related to the 3 amp load capability; but if it was a software issue I would expect many other customers (with that software) would have the same problem.



It is possible that Firefly uses a transistor (not a relay) to control the problem fan (but I would lean to a relay since it is a motorized device)…….but it would still either require hard wire between controller panel and the fan, or a wireless approach for control. If wireless then there must be a small receiver module located near the fan or close by (with some kind of repair access) that actually turns the 12vdc on/off to the fan motor itself. If you can find the fan module you could try to obtain a replacement and see if that cures the issue (this assumes the module is flakey or sensitive to any AC noise coming through (or induced) on the 12vdc lines). Since this fan is the only problem load it would seem more likely that the receiver module at the fan is the problem (again assuming a wireless control). Maybe other owners will chime in who have had this issue and will suggest their final solution.


You could try your own relay control with a manual switch hard wire solution, but that defeats the Firefly controller you paid $$ for. I agree with you that this is not normal operation. The final fallback since I assume you are still under warrantee is the Dealer…….but at this time of year it is hard to get in and they have your coach for as long as it takes. You could ask Firefly to confirm if this is a wireless control of the fan install and ask them for a replacement receiver module if it is.

Couple of points.

1. The software comment is based up discussions with Firefly. They have software limits in amp/current draw. He gave an example where Thor said the water pump was 3 amp yet it needed 7/10. They updated the software to fix it

2. It is wired and not wireless. I believe they are switching with a transitor and not physical relay. However I can use their system to activate a physical relay if current was the culprit.

3. I try hard to avoid the dealer. But agree that may be the best option

4. I did consider that maybe the fan itself is bad. I may do some volt tests to see if we are losing voltage when it false starts or if voltage is good and the fan just doesn't start.

5. I generally do agree with your more customers would complain comment. However, I have worked with them on other issues that they have subsequently fixed...that they did not know about. Also, within a model year, we know how Thor and vendors update parts and substitute... Could have created a more unique situation. They have updated their firmware multiple times this week. That was due to bugs I identified...so it does happen.


I think my next step is to check voltage or current drops. Then if that doesn't give any leads I will try a physical relay. Sadly that I think that may be easier than trying a replacement and/or the dealer
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------
2019 Thor Motor Coach Hurricane 34J | Front Sumos | Front Koni FSD | CHT Front & Rear | Roadmaster Steering Stabilizer
Hurricane34J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 04:00 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2013 ACE 30.1
State: Alberta
Posts: 917
THOR #2631
I understand all your points, thanks for clarifying many things. Liked the original posting Utube video also.



The controller panel sounds very interesting in that it controls the current levels in the load ccts and is not just acting like an on/off switch (using a transistor). The other thing you could try is instead of the fan load, connect a smaller lamp load (say less than 1 amp as an example) to the fan hardwire cct (disconnect the fan) and see if you can control that with shore or gen running. Maybe the fan is drawing too much current as you say.....beyond what you can adjust on the controller perhaps? This sounds like you will have to do some trouble scenarios to get closer to the cause.

As we mentioned before, it does not hurt to investigate your AC connections too, although it is usually an access PIA sometimes. Might save you some other AC issue down the road as a bonus. It will be interesting to hear what you find out. Good luck.
__________________
javelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2019, 11:45 PM   #9
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 34J
State: Michigan
Posts: 27
THOR #12625
Just a follow up. I didn't spend the time in troubleshooting to see if it was a current issue. Instead I just put a relay in. The firefly turns on the relay and then the relay turns on the power to the fan. Works perfectly.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------
2019 Thor Motor Coach Hurricane 34J | Front Sumos | Front Koni FSD | CHT Front & Rear | Roadmaster Steering Stabilizer
Hurricane34J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 12:51 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2013 ACE 30.1
State: Alberta
Posts: 917
THOR #2631
Inovation gets the job done. It would have been interesting to know why the Firefly was having an issue with AC sources running.....but hey, now you can move on to other things. Thanks for advising about your working solution.
__________________

__________________
javelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 03:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×