Downsizing Continues

[Laco]

Seems like if you make a 'B' wider, you really have created a 'B+', which is really a small 'C'. What you really want is more space inside, without making it bigger outside!!! Damn laws of physics getting in the way again!!!!

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Question: Where does the toilet paper sit; when you've got a wet bath?

Usually a water proof toilet paper holder. Some wet baths separate part of bath with the shower curtain so everything doesn’t get as wet. I don’t like wet baths, but vans don’t normally have dry baths — hence why I don’t want to upgrade to something I don’t like.

It pays to think of all details before buying. I think that’s a mistake too many people make. On the surface things look great, then in actual use it’s horrible.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Laco

Seems like if you make a 'B' wider, you really have created a 'B+', which is really a small 'C'. What you really want is more space inside, without making it bigger outside!!! Damn laws of physics getting in the way again!!!!

I repectfully disagree. There are plenty of van manufacturers now making vans in the 24 ~ 25 foot range, and with 6’-4” to 7’ of headroom (before insulation).

The problem is that they are essentially all 80” in outside width, with most between 5’-10” to 6’-2” in interior width at widest point (70” ~ 74”). Motorhomes go up to 2-feet wider.

I’m not suggesting Ford, RAM, or Mercedes make a van 96” wide like dually pickups, but even at around 86 ~ 90 inches it would make a huge difference for van campers. And we’d still be able to park it at home, use it as a second car, etc. Other than slightly lower MPG, I’m not sure it would sacrifice much of anything that is significant.

[Laco]

Agree the length and height are there, but its the width that is not there in the 'B's. If you add two feet to the width, you are going to wind up with the same external size as the small 'C's of today. Mine for instance, with the slides in is 24 feet long, and a bit shy of two feet wider than a van. I'm not sure adding only 10 inches would make that much difference, but maybe. Would be interesting to see what a good design engineer could come up with, given that space to work with, that would actually be a usable floor plan that would compare to the small 'C's.

[Chance]

Laco, I think going from 80 to 90 inches would be huge for a van camper.

A lot of small motorhomes are 90” wide, like the Winnebago Via/Reyo Class A based on Sprinter chassis, and the Thor Gemini, etc. There is at least one B+ on Ford Transit that is 87” wide (Sunseeker).

In Europe many motorhomes are 88” wide (2.25 meters) and they work fine, so we can get an idea from them.

Regarding wider vans, Mercedes had one that was wider than a Sprinter. I’ve seen pictures of motorhomes built on that platform and they were very roomy by comparison. Even today the extra 4” between a ProMaster and a Sprinter is significant.

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by Travelin' Texans

Don't need it!! It's a walk-in bidet, turn on the shower.

I hadn't thought of that!
Excellent!

[Elite Washington]

I would say the biggest reason is because people’s lives change. I work for a bank and we reach out to our customers because life circumstances changes what was working before. It’s no different with an RV a house of car. Gas may have some to do with it but honestly nobody that is buying an RV is broke we all have disposable income whatever that means to you. As a luxury item the market is always going to be changing.

[Pete'sMH]

Why are Bs so expensive? Can get a 30 ft A with full body paint for the price of most of them!

[SuperD]

We had a 40’ DP and downsized to a 30’ class A due to storage and parking problems after a move. Love our 30’ but do miss the room of our DP. Still enjoy the road!!!

[Summerwind]

Nothing that hasn't been mentioned but it is as individual as the people owning.
But!
I gotta think it is increasing population and lack of space, à la the EU , with parking etc that are driving this (no pun intended)like Super D mentioned above
Coupled with older population that is worried driving larger vehicles in traffic and not wanting to tow an extra vehicle
Wanting to eliminate some responsibility with paperwork and taxes by owning one vehicle.
A Swiss army knife vehicle not unlike these small apartments that can be reconfigured for a dinner party for 70 but are only 550 square feet
Young peeps are more about experience and less about things so storage (when u own one tee shirt) not an issue

Originally Posted by Chance

.

It pays to think of all details before buying. I think that’s a mistake too many people make. On the surface things look great, then in actual use it’s horrible.

NOW you tell me Chance, now You tell me

Wanna buy a tiny house anyone?

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

Why are Bs so expensive? Can get a 30 ft A with full body paint for the price of most of them!

Probably because of the downsizing costs.
Smaller "stuff" that can do the same large as it's larger brethren has probably spent more time being figured out.

[vkb]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Probably because of the downsizing costs.
Smaller "stuff" that can do the same large as it's larger brethren has probably spent more time being figured out.

This week we looked at a Winnebago Travato 59k which has twin beds...it might have appealed to us, as Ron was thinking of downsizing a bit .. and may still do so .. however..in downsizing I can honestly say...the smaller stuff cannot do the same as the large stuff... refrigerator and microwave that is definitely designed for those who do not prepare meals in the RV or have the need of a cool beverage . Sure, it got down the road just fine, and there is something to say about the narrower body and about a foot shorter in height...still 24' long...and not even close to the amenities we are used to in our Axis. Unless there is a small C that offers twin beds (one of the Trend models)...we are not leaving our Axis behind.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

Why are Bs so expensive? Can get a 30 ft A with full body paint for the price of most of them!

Great point. As Consumer Reports comparison stated, Class Bs are indeed much more expensive for the size.

I think it comes down to a few things, like Class Bs having most of the same items as a Class A, just smaller. And I’m not sure that a smaller microwave or furnace costs significantly less. May even cost more due to lower sales volume.

I expect labor is much higher for a B because a van camper must be built inside an existing shell, which limits labor access, whereas A and C motorhomes are built partly from the inside out.

Vans also don’t have straight walls or ceilings, so much of inside has to be custom shaped. Also, the cargo van itself costs more than a stripped chassis (at least as priced by Ford on website).

An example is the bathroom of a Travato van camper with its complex curved shapes compared to a simple RV bathroom built using standard RV parts that are fairly cheap to buy. Installing them in a Class A is similar to building a house, but I can imagine that building the Travato bathroom, albeit a small wet bath, requires more labor.

From what I’ve seen, and CR mentioned, B build quality is usually much better also (but not always — some disappoint).

[vkb]

Chance .. agree … a couple weeks ago, Ron, actually pondered purchasing a Transit 22' van and converting it. We viewed a couple YouTube videos from a fello (young) who did this...having watched the build and what he had to do to create a very functional camper van...his final note was...it cost him about $20k to do the build in addition to the cost of the van. It was beautiful to say the least ! Having beginning with insulating the interior properly, .. He lined the roof with think slats of wood, one impressive job. What with all the wiring, plumbing, etc... He said it took him almost a year as he did it in his spare time.

Needless to say, it didn't take long to decide, that at our age, we didn't have time to do a build...Ron is very capable to do a project like that and in our minds eye, we knew it would be a neat challenge...just should have done it 20 yrs ago !!! HA !

[Chance]

Yes, a lot of people are doing their own conversions so they can get what they want, and leave stuff they don’t want or need out.

Sales number on first post doesn’t include these home built camper vans. I’m not sure there is a way to track numbers, but I’d guess it may even be higher than factory-built units.

If I had more free time, I’d give DIY a try. Sounds fun.


Mostly I like really simple stuff, and they don’t build much like that anymore.

[revjeffrey]

Not all downsizing but first time buyers opting for smaller units, driving small unit numbers up.

[vkb]

Originally Posted by revjeffrey

Not all downsizing but first time buyers opting for smaller units, driving small unit numbers up.

We have lifelong friends, who are on their 2nd Roadtrek and would not have anything else !!

Just one example of why they build so many different RV's .. trying to please everyone !

**when we had our Dodge van in the 90's .. it had a raised roof and an electric back seat which laid flat...Ron built a rack for a toaster oven and small refrig...installed an extra battery with inverter … had a porta potty. We had fun in that camper van . home made. downside was if you needed to get up in the middle of the night and forgot where you were you would hit your head on the roof of the van which was about 3 feet above you ! Ha !
Just a bit tight !

Our progression through the years has made us enjoy and appreciate each and every change we have made along the way .. and have had so much over the last 40+ years of camping !!

Whatever you decide...don't wait too long...do it while you can !!

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by vkb

...Whatever you decide...don't wait too long...do it while you can !!

Amen...

Whether it's a tent, or a 45 foot DP: go find some woods, and park it!

[Summerwind]

Originally Posted by vkb

Chance .. agree … a couple weeks ago, Ron, actually pondered
Snipped
Needless to say, it didn't take long to decide, that at our age, we didn't have time to do a build...Ron is very capable to do a project like that and in our minds eye, we knew it would be a neat challenge...just should have done it 20 yrs ago !!! HA !

Neat!
I toyed with this also but without the skills y'all have!
A lot of peeps on the transit and sprinter forums do beautiful work.
Swiss army vans
Yeah same reason I don't want a fixer upper house
Life is short wanna be outside
Same reason I want coach to be free if defects and not constanlty 'wrenching ' on it myself or correcting defects

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Summerwind

....cut...

Same reason I want coach to be free if defects and not constanlty 'wrenching ' on it myself or correcting defects

Same here. I take it a step farther, thinking that if we want trouble-free reliability, the fewer things we have to assume that need to work correctly, the more likely it will work right. Basically, simple is more reliable than complex.

As an example, I don’t like the looks or feel of slides, extended or retracted, but beyond that, a slide can not be as reliable as a solid wall. It’s one less thing to maintain or worry about.

I wonder if all the problems slides cause isn’t hurting growth rate of larger motorhomes. Class As essentially all have multiple slides or a full-wall slide. Practically all larger Class Cs have them, whereas smaller Cs not always. A few Class Bs have them, but the vast majority don’t. I doubt many buyers are downsizing solely to avoid slides, but anyone who researches how slides are the #1 trouble item on RVs can’t help being influenced to some degree.