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Old 07-29-2016, 01:21 PM   #21
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As long as the rubber bands weren't manufactured by Harris there shouldn't be a problem. Fuel economy would drastically improve and storage space requirements would decrease. Takes a lot less storage for a box of rubber bands than it does for 80 gallons of gas.

Ever sit in a plane while maintenance is working an issue? 10 minutes for the repair and one hour for the inspections and paperwork.

Also, this one fits the "You had to be there category". A 2.5 hour flight delay because nobody at the airport is qualified/certified to touch the wing of the plane to see if ice has formed during a moderate snow fall.

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Old 07-29-2016, 05:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Brown Ace View Post
Bob, you are comparing apples against oranges. Next you'll be comparing RVs against surgery equipment. Does not apply.
I DISAGREE!

We are comparing build quality, or lack of it! Which applies whether you are building RV's, aircraft, surgical equipment, or battleships!
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:22 PM   #23
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Personally I think Bob is researching becoming a multimillionare by producing flying RVs.

I am waiting for his crowd funding site to open, so I can get in on the ground floor. Im sure my investment will go up as fast as his "AirBob" RV.

This secret photo was taken at a airport his home.

Ken

Sorry Bob, I have never been able to keep a secret.
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:24 PM   #24
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If he is, he is a little behind the times:
The Flying Winnebago | History | Air & Space Magazine



Note to Chance: This RV has no slideout



Note that in this instance Sikorsky built the airframe and Winnebago built the RV pieces (much like Ford supplies the chassis for our units).
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:28 PM   #25
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It's kind of an apples/orange comparison.
1. Aircraft technicians require specific certifications and they vary depending on what systems/subsystems are involved. The certification requires annual training and upgrade requirements.
2. Aircraft require hundreds of process inspections. Many if these are in process inspections that must be performed before the next assembly can occur.
3. Aircraft parts require specification compliance. Many of the parts and subassemblies require extensive documentation for forensic tracking.
4. Aircraft require rigid standardization. Every assembly has a specific drawing and can only be assembled in accordance with the certified specification.
5. Every assembly process has a prescribed procedure which allows no deviation. Everything is "by the book."

It would be nice if an RV manufacturer followed those procedures; however, the cost would be exponentially than what we pay today.
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
If he is, he is a little behind the times:
The Flying Winnebago | History | Air & Space Magazine

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;]

Note that in this instance Sikorsky built the airframe and Winnebago built the RV pieces (much like Ford supplies the chassis for our units).

That's way outdated. You will note from the picture's large intake that Bob's RV is turbojet propelled. Also what does't show is that it is an adaptation of the Harrier jet, so you can drop right into or out of your favorite campsite.

Ken
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Old 07-29-2016, 06:45 PM   #27
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This thread immediately reminded me of a motorhome that was created by a plane designer over 50 years ago. While it doesn't address the "quality" issue directly, it does reveal insight into how those that design airplanes would likely go about designing a motorhome.

Keep in mind this was created over 50 years ago, so compare to motorhomes of the early 60s. The Ultravan was a small, low, wide, light, aero and fuel efficient Class A.

In general I think those with engineering/technical backgrounds would design motorhomes with much greater emphasis on efficiency, reliability, ease of maintenance and repairs, etc... In other words very practical but not necessarily what most prospective buyers will be drawn to in the showroom. Manufacturers, on the other hand, build what we are willing to buy.



In my opinion, and as also stated by others above, cost and quality can't be treated as independent variables. It cost more to build things better or right. It may not be apparent on the surface, but the cost is reflected in there somewhere.

Someone very close to me studied aviation and is a commercial pilot. He told me that even in commercial aviation they place a value on human life in order to justify the added cost of equipment. It is certainly not a case of building planes as safe as absolutely possible. It's about economics. An example one of his professors gave was that airplanes could be built with parachutes, which could save some lives, but it's not economical because accidents are so rare. The cost per life saved would be too high. Those funds spent by society in other ways would save more lives by comparison.

Motorhomes could be built better but it would add cost. Or given a budget we could trade content for improved build quality.
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Old 07-29-2016, 07:00 PM   #28
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Airstreams (another Thor product) are built like airplanes. However Q/C is about the same.

Ken
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Old 07-29-2016, 07:04 PM   #29
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....cut....



Note to Chance: This RV has no slideout



....cut....
Very funny!


Can you imagine an airplane with slide-outs so when they overbooked they could create extra space?

It's either that or stretch the plane to get the extra space. One idea seems so much simpler to me.
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Old 07-29-2016, 07:32 PM   #30
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An example one of his professors gave was that airplanes could be built with parachutes
Note that general aviation now has "ballistic recovery systems" installed: They shoot out parachutes.

Most notable general aviation aircraft that has this is the Cirrus SR22: Cirrus Aircraft | Airframe Parachute
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Old 07-29-2016, 07:59 PM   #31
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Very funny!


Can you imagine an airplane with slide-outs so when they overbooked they could create extra space?

It's either that or stretch the plane to get the extra space. One idea seems so much simpler to me.
Lets hope some executive at one of the major airlines doesn't get any ideas on putting slide-outs on jets. They may try it. I heard once they were going to remove seats and replace them with slant boards so they could sardine more passengers in per flight. :
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:04 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
Very funny!


Can you imagine an airplane with slide-outs so when they overbooked they could create extra space?

It's either that or stretch the plane to get the extra space. One idea seems so much simpler to me.
The Winnebago Heli-Home! Wow. I would fly in one for sure!
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:09 PM   #33
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Note that general aviation now has "ballistic recovery systems" installed: They shoot out parachutes.

Most notable general aviation aircraft that has this is the Cirrus SR22: Cirrus Aircraft | Airframe Parachute
Yep, I'm familiar with them. They've saved many lives already. Risk in general aviation is much higher per passenger mile so it's easier to justify the cost. Plus when it's the owner paying, they don't need to justify it at all.

The bottom line is that having a wing fall off a plane is very different than having a slideout get stuck at a campground. Both could be due to poor quality, but consequences are not even close. In a way it makes sense to me that we collectively prefer to buy cheaper RVs of questionable quality.
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:16 PM   #34
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Lets hope some executive at one of the major airlines doesn't get any ideas on putting slide-outs on jets. They may try it. I heard once they were going to remove seats and replace them with slant boards so they could sardine more passengers in per flight. :
I recall reading about that study. I think it was meant for very short commuter flights where standing was compared to standing on a bus or train. A big problem if I recall correctly was not being able to evacuate extra passengers in allowed time in case of emergency.
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:22 PM   #35
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Yep, I'm familiar with them. They've saved many lives already. Risk in general aviation is much higher per passenger mile so it's easier to justify the cost. Plus when it's the owner paying, they don't need to justify it at all.

The bottom line is that having a wing fall off a plane is very different than having a slideout get stuck at a campground. Both could be due to poor quality, but consequences are not even close. In a way it makes sense to me that we collectively prefer to buy cheaper RVs of questionable quality.
I can't remember hearing of a private plane having the wing fall off under normal flight conditions..maybe it has, but I have not heard of it.

Funny you mentioning slides. My slide on my new Ace would not retract today. First I called Bretz RV in Billings MT but that was no real help.

I called Thor and we spent close to an hour trouble shooting etc. and there is a control box in the second bay that controls the slide. There is a reset button that you push six times in a row (it lights each time) and hold on the seventh push until the light blink rapidly off and on and then go inside and the slide comes in (your hope). We resynced the slide but again it would only come in a few inches and stop (sounds like the front motor stops first) and again we had to reset it.

Maybe my dealer will get me in in a week or two...maybe and they can fix all the things wrong at one setting (most minor) but the slide thing could leave me a long ways from home... Bottom line is Thor took care of me. The weak link is dealer service.
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:54 PM   #36
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I was an AF acft maint sq commander twice and was the Logistics Group Commander at Barksdale AFB La. It is not uncommon to find wing root cracks, landing gear cracks, or other defects. But those are usually found during extensive x-ray inspections that are performed at scheduled I tervals.

My troops would perform a Phase inspection every 200 flying hours on every B-52. They in essence completely tore the acft apart. We inspected engine mounts with dye penetrant and UV light (as well as x-ray). All the control surfaces, control surface rigging, and flight controls received extensive inspection. Same for landing gear. It was a three shift operation performed over 10 - 14 days. Also included extensive corrosion inspections. It involved 30 - 40 people per shift and we would perform hundreds of supervisory inspections.
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:59 PM   #37
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This is comparing apples to oranges.

But, I will say that If ANY RV manufacturer built a plane, I would not step foot on it.

They all are terrible with QC...Thor, Winnebago, Tiffin.

But lets not forget its also the selling dealers responsibility to have the coach ready for PDI.

On my current coach, My salesperson and service manager did an outstanding job of assisting getting the "BUGS" worked out. Night and day difference compared to my two previous coaches.
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Old 07-29-2016, 09:09 PM   #38
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I can't remember hearing of a private plane having the wing fall off under normal flight conditions..maybe it has, but I have not heard of it.

Funny you mentioning slides. My slide on my new Ace would not retract today. First I called Bretz RV in Billings MT but that was no real help.

I called Thor and we spent close to an hour trouble shooting etc. and there is a control box in the second bay that controls the slide. There is a reset button that you push six times in a row (it lights each time) and hold on the seventh push until the light blink rapidly off and on and then go inside and the slide comes in (your hope). We resynced the slide but again it would only come in a few inches and stop (sounds like the front motor stops first) and again we had to reset it.

Maybe my dealer will get me in in a week or two...maybe and they can fix all the things wrong at one setting (most minor) but the slide thing could leave me a long ways from home... Bottom line is Thor took care of me. The weak link is dealer service.
I don't like slides for many reasons that go well beyond lack of reliability, but what I find hard to relate to is the following they have considering they are the #1 reported problem with RVs year after year.

I know they provide added room and resale value, but the negatives are so many that it surprises me that more buyers don't choose to pass on them. I get wanting benefits of slides, but have a harder time with why owners put up with all the problems.
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Old 07-30-2016, 12:27 AM   #39
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I don't like slides for many reasons that go well beyond lack of reliability, but what I find hard to relate to is the following they have considering they are the #1 reported problem with RVs year after year.

I know they provide added room and resale value, but the negatives are so many that it surprises me that more buyers don't choose to pass on them. I get wanting benefits of slides, but have a harder time with why owners put up with all the problems.
Sometimes people don't thoroughly research them. Some others think, "They wouldn't keep selling them if they were unreliable". Probably there are a bunch who have owned them with no problems.

It is my personal opinion the the added complexity overrides the benefits even with no problems. In our motor home we would have gained anther 18" of floor width in between sink and dinette. We don't need it.

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure out why people who have different priorities than I do are always wrong.

Ken
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Old 07-30-2016, 12:32 AM   #40
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I don't like slides for many reasons that go well beyond lack of reliability, but what I find hard to relate to is the following they have considering they are the #1 reported problem with RVs year after year.

I know they provide added room and resale value, but the negatives are so many that it surprises me that more buyers don't choose to pass on them. I get wanting benefits of slides, but have a harder time with why owners put up with all the problems.
Are there any manufactures out there that make Class A motorhomes without slides? I agree if you get a 30-35 foot coach and arrange the inside correctly you don't need slides but I am not aware of any major manufacturers that make them now.
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