Thor AV and QC guys must've been ...

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by EV2

That is totally unrealistic and just not possible. People try to make comparisons to an automobile, but it is closer to a custom built home with all of the connected utilities and the car in the garage. Any proper "inspection" would require filling water, lpg, etc. Then draining and winterizing. The cost at the factory would be prohibitive. The complete and final inspection must be done by the dealer after the transport to them. Moving the coach down the road to the dealership would require another complete inspection after arrival. Been there - done that. And, the dealer can hold the mfgr. to the fire or drop the line. That is what he is paid to do by the buyer.

In line with what you stated, the Owner's Manual states the dealer is responsible for performing a "complete pre-delivery inspection of all motorhome components as specified in the pre-delivery checklists supplied by the manufacturer". It also states that you should receive a copy of these completed checklists from your dealer when the motorhome is delivered to you.

I personally received two completed checklists from the dealer when my coach was delivered and this did not include the checklist we completed during my PDI.

Basically it boils down to dealers cutting corners to control their costs and whether or not the customer accepts delivery of a unit that has problems identified during the PDI.

Also, one additional point, how many folks buy a house without having a home inspection done first. There is nothing that says a customer cannot hire a mobile RV tech to be present during their PDI to act in their interest and to place a clause in the purchase order that the sale is contingent upon the final inspection. When a dealer faces the loss of a sale due to issues with the unit they will move fast to get things corrected.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by EV2

That is totally unrealistic and just not possible. People try to make comparisons to an automobile, but it is closer to a custom built home with all of the connected utilities and the car in the garage. Any proper "inspection" would require filling water, lpg, etc. Then draining and winterizing. The cost at the factory would be prohibitive. The complete and final inspection must be done by the dealer after the transport to them. Moving the coach down the road to the dealership would require another complete inspection after arrival. Been there - done that. And, the dealer can hold the mfgr. to the fire or drop the line. That is what he is paid to do by the buyer.

I must not be understanding your post. Is the warranty not from Thor? As a buyer I would ultimately expect Thor to make the unit right, not Camping World or whatever dealer sold the unit. The fact that Thor in effect contracts with Camping World to fix issues doesn't shift the warranty to CC, or does it?

Yeah, I guess I'm seeing it much like a car where the warranty is a Ford Corporation responsibility and not a dealer's. In my case, if Honda builds minivans with defective transmissions, I don't blame the dealer. They didn't design or manufacture a poor transmission.

[EA37TS]

Someone mentioned visiting a Camping World and seeing the coaches lined up end to end at the service department. 10 to 1 says that 75 percent of them were waiting pre-delivery prep rather than service.

My dealer has 2 distinct centers for servicing RVs. The technicians assigned to the sales department handle all issues within the first 90 days of sale. After the first 90 days all customers are then directed to the Service Department.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by EV2

Yes, understanding the difference is important. To use your automotive reference, imagine a tire problem. A good dealer will assist you, but the warranty is not Honda. But, now extend this to the coach. Honda built the transmission, Thor did not, so you have another warranty for your chassis. Thor does not warranty the batteries. How about the Dometic or Samsung refrig? Take a look at the stack of warranties that come with a coach and compare to your car - apples and oranges. That is why it is not comparable. If your Honda was assembled with an Onan, generator, a Dometic refrig, an XYZ toilet, an ABC water pump, a DEF roof vent fan, a GHI entertainment system with a JKL television, a MNO automatic awning, a PQR inverter, and about 50 other non-Thor components with individual and distinct warranties, you would rely on the common denominator, a good dealer. And then there is the total difference in manufacturing with one being mostly automated with millions produced compared to a few hundred or thousand custom, hand built with little to no automation possible while introducing hundreds of out of house components. You have all of the systems of a fully optioned truck carrying everything that you have in your house including the house, while operating an electrical utility, a gas supplier, a water plant, a cable company and then shaking it down the road. But, I am glad your Honda is reliable, just am at a loss how anyone would think it is comparable.
Finally, if you are willing to make an appointment and return to the Thor manufacturing location, my bet is that they will assist you. And, for those buyers that will purchase from the super high volume, low margin dealer, that probably would be the best option because the reality of the industry is that there will be many necessary adjustments and repairs on a very complex system and high volume, low margin dealers will have them stacked up waiting. I assure you that super expensive, top of the line coaches are NOT problem free, but you paid thousands extra for support. Simply reality.

I think you make an excellent argument, and the reference to tire warranty is great, although I see it more of an exception than the norm.

If I buy a Ford truck and an axle breaks, do I go to Ford or Dana, or whoever sold Ford the axle? What about a TRW part that fails and takes out an engine? Does the engine warranty come from Ford or TRW? As an owner of a Ford truck you get warranty repair from Ford, and don't really care whether the failure was from a component manufactured or purchased by Ford. If Ford has some kind of agreement to back-charge TRW every time a failure costs them money, that's their business. Same with any component sourced by Ford from third parties and assembled by Ford into the vehicle I purchase as a unit.

In the case of a Thor Motorhome, I can see segregating the chassis from the rest of the coach, but have a very hard time going beyond that. I don't doubt that's the way it works, but it's a horrible system. No wonder it leads to warranty issues and unhappy customers.

If Thor buys a roof AC, stove, microwave, etc... what's wrong with those units being included by the original Thor warranty? This would put some incentive on Thor to select components of higher quality. Otherwise if they have little skin in the game they will buy the cheapest stuff that looks great in the showroom with little regard to how it holds up longer-term.

I can see both sides of this issue, and as a prospective buyer I'm not encouraged at all by what I'm reading.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Chance

...
In the case of a Thor Motorhome, I can see segregating the chassis from the rest of the coach, but have a very hard time going beyond that. I don't doubt that's the way it works, but it's a horrible system. No wonder it leads to warranty issues and unhappy customers.

If Thor buys a roof AC, stove, microwave, etc... what's wrong with those units being included by the original Thor warranty? This would put some incentive on Thor to select components of higher quality. Otherwise if they have little skin in the game they will buy the cheapest stuff that looks great in the showroom with little regard to how it holds up longer-term.

I can see both sides of this issue, and as a prospective buyer I'm not encouraged at all by what I'm reading.

It's called the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act of 1975.

If Thor uses a Whirlpool Residential Refrigerator in a coach (as is the case in mine) and Whirlpool offers their own warranty Thor can do one of two things. Either Thor can accept responsibility for the other manufacturer's warranty or they can provide you with the warranty info from Whirlpool. In the case of my coach Thor informed me in the owner's manual that the refrigerator was covered under a separate warranty and they also provided the refrigerator's owner manual which includes Whirlpool's warranty info. In the case of the refrigerator, if warranty service is required Whirlpool will come to the house to service the refrigerator while it is installed in the RV with no trip to the dealer required. That will change when the refrigerator warranty expires and my extended warranty kicks in which will then require a trip to a dealer for service.

On my prior coach when I took it in because the refrigerator door would not remain locked while travelling the dealer submitted the warranty invoice to Dometic, not to Forest River.

In your Dana example, that axle is manufactured to specs submitted by Ford Engineers. That and the desire to offer a 5 year 60K power train warranty is why Ford assumes responsibility for the axle warranty. If you purchase an axle from Dana chances are that it may be slightly different in its design because it is used for multiple applications and also the warranty would be than the 5 year 60K warranty offered by Ford.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by dstankov

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In your Dana example, that axle is manufactured to specs submitted by Ford Engineers. That and the desire to offer a 5 year 60K power train warranty is why Ford assumes responsibility for the axle warranty.

....cut....

Dave, it mainly avoids finger pointing between two large companies, with a single individual caught in the middle.

When a person buys a Dodge pickup truck, it may come with a ZF 8-speed transmission. That's transparent to buyer. So are Brembo brakes, or Delco alternators, etc...on many new cars. If we as customers had to deal with multiple companies it would likely become a pain.

As it is, buyers seem to get caught in red tape between the chassis supplier and coach builder. In the case of Winnebago Travato built on RAM ProMaster van, some modifications done by Winnebago made vans not start according to RAM. And according to Winnebago it was a van issue. Owners initially reported neither side accepting responsibility and thus fixing the problem. Eventually they worked it out but it wasn't a pleasant experience from buyers' perspective.

In my opinion the more entities are involved in warranty claims, the more likely the owner will be unhappy. For the most part I still don't see the need to do it like Thor does it other than to make it easier for themselves at the owners' expense.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Chance

Dave, it mainly avoids finger pointing between two large companies, with a single individual caught in the middle.

...

In my opinion the more entities are involved in warranty claims, the more likely the owner will be unhappy. For the most part I still don't see the need to do it like Thor does it other than to make it easier for themselves at the owners' expense.

First, I disagree that it avoids finger pointing. In the case of the Dana axle, Dana's warranty is 3 years maximum with some being 2 years. Ford warrants the axle for 5 years. As such they assumed responsibility for the axle warranty.

Next, I have on a couple of occasions had the opportunity to wait for warranty service on my cars because the dealer had to take them to an Automotive electronics shop that was authorized to repair a particular electronic component. On the third occasion, the dealer made the appointment and I took the car there myself to eliminate the three days of downtime.

Also, a Motorhome is not an automobile. It is a home on wheels. As such I challenge you to find any home builder that provides warranty service on the HVAC, Appliances or selected items within the plumbing system. A home builder warranties the structure to include cabinetry, the electrical, and the plumbing minus some fixtures (e.g. Jacuzzi tubs). Again, under Magnuson-Moss the builder's responsibility to inform you of that some items are covered my manufacturer's warranties and not by the builder's warranty.

The functional systems within an RV are somewhat built using national residential building code standards for electrical and plumbing systems. That is why you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers and 120V systems. Applying standards or practices used across the auto industry for anything other than the chassis on an RV would be a disservice to the industry and create a cost burden so high only the elite could award to look at let alone own an RV.

[Teeitup26]

Originally Posted by dstankov

First, I disagree that it avoids finger pointing. In the case of the Dana axle, Dana's warranty is 3 years maximum with some being 2 years. Ford warrants the axle for 5 years. As such they assumed responsibility for the axle warranty.

Next, I have on a couple of occasions had the opportunity to wait for warranty service on my cars because the dealer had to take them to an Automotive electronics shop that was authorized to repair a particular electronic component. On the third occasion, the dealer made the appointment and I took the car there myself to eliminate the three days of downtime.

Also, a Motorhome is not an automobile. It is a home on wheels. As such I challenge you to find any home builder that provides warranty service on the HVAC, Appliances or selected items within the plumbing system. A home builder warranties the structure to include cabinetry, the electrical, and the plumbing minus some fixtures (e.g. Jacuzzi tubs). Again, under Magnuson-Moss the builder's responsibility to inform you of that some items are covered my manufacturer's warranties and not by the builder's warranty.

The functional systems within an RV are somewhat built using national residential building code standards for electrical and plumbing systems. That is why you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers and 120V systems. Applying standards or practices used across the auto industry for anything other than the chassis on an RV would be a disservice to the industry and create a cost burden so high only the elite could award to look at let alone own an RV.

Dave, have you got your lawyer writing this stuff or is you the lawyer? lol

[Chance]

Originally Posted by dstankov

First, I disagree that it avoids finger pointing. In the case of the Dana axle, Dana's warranty is 3 years maximum with some being 2 years. Ford warrants the axle for 5 years. As such they assumed responsibility for the axle warranty.

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Doesn't this statement contradict itself? When my van needs axle work I don't even need to know or care that the axle was built by Dana. Since Ford assumes all warranty responsibility, as owner I don't get drawn into issues between Ford and Dana. As far as I'm concerned the vehicle was built by Ford. All of it. Including airbags made in Japan if that applies. If there is an issue there, I deal with Ford for resolution, and no one else.

I understand your point of view but can also imagine many technical problems where the RV "assembler" could make mistakes that affect the operation of individual components. And this could easily lead to the finger pointing between the two that I was referring to; making it harder for owner to get issues fixed quickly and with less aggravation.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by dstankov

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Also, a Motorhome is not an automobile. It is a home on wheels. ....cut....

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this premise. To me a motorhome is more of a vehicle that I can sleep in than a house I can drive.

I'm not ready to accept this premise to then conclude that their warranty has to be structured like that of a house. It's too unrelated for me.

No problem though, it's not like anyone is forcing me to buy a new motorhome. If I don't like their terms and conditions I can always look at other options.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Chance

Doesn't this statement contradict itself? When my van needs axle work I don't even need to know or care that the axle was built by Dana. Since Ford assumes all warranty responsibility, as owner I don't get drawn into issues between Ford and Dana. As far as I'm concerned the vehicle was built by Ford. All of it. Including airbags made in Japan if that applies. If there is an issue there, I deal with Ford for resolution, and no one else.

I understand your point of view but can also imagine many technical problems where the RV "assembler" could make mistakes that affect the operation of individual components. And this could easily lead to the finger pointing between the two that I was referring to; making it harder for owner to get issues fixed quickly and with less aggravation.

The statement does not contradict itself. When you buy a Ford you do not get a warranty issued by Dana. You get a Ford Power Train warranty which clearly states the drive axle as a warranted component. Since Ford changed the terms of the warranty they can not legally direct you back to Dana for repair. The history behind these arrangements dates back to when the US manufactures were getting their clocks cleaned by the foreign manufactures. Although some manufacturers did improve the quality of automobiles for others it was a marketing scheme to give the impression of improved quality.

Sometimes issues such as you mention do come up and a GOOD dealer will handle those issues for you. Under the law an RV dealer must make all warranty information available, upon request, for review prior to the sale. All too often I have seen where the customer is concerned about one aspect of the purchase and that is the price of the coach. I'll go out on a limb and say over 90 percent of customers never look at the warranty info until after they submit an offer to purchase. They may ask "what's the warranty" but they never look at the warranty document itself.

I believe one of the biggest improvements Thor could make to their reputation for quality is to eliminate 50 percent of their dealer network. Unfortunately when we as consumers have a bad experience with a dealer we often voice our frustration against Thor, not the dealer, on forums such as this instead of voicing our frustration against the dealer to Thor.

[Larry]

Originally Posted by Teeitup26

Your point is well taken. But i might just buy a new car with high QC standards and rent a nice hotel room for a whole lot less

You could certainly do that if you want to see some interesting tourists locations and have a place to sleep which is about all you'll get for your money. Been there and done that but if you want to see some really nice campgrounds (as witnessed by some pictures on this Forum from various beautiful sites) and meet some really nice folks and a whole lot more; the RV experience is the way to go.

Just returned from a trip to Gulf Shores SP (just over 500 miles round trip) and the Axis performed great in all aspects; flawlessly and couldn't be happier with the purchase. Looking forward to our next camping excursion.

[Teeitup26]

Originally Posted by Larry

You could certainly do that if you want to see some interesting tourists locations and have a place to sleep which is about all you'll get for your money. Been there and done that but if you want to see some really nice campgrounds (as witnessed by some pictures on this Forum from various beautiful sites) and meet some really nice folks and a whole lot more; the RV experience is the way to go.

Just returned from a trip to Gulf Shores SP (just over 500 miles round trip) and the Axis performed great in all aspects; flawlessly and couldn't be happier with the purchase. Looking forward to our next camping excursion.

Larry, You are absolutely right, although i have never owned an RV and traveled that way, i know i will like it when i finally buy it. I've been in touch with Scott Moody several times visiting about different things, but i'm convinced his dealership is the way to go. I'm also getting convinced that the 24.1 is the way to go. I visited Camping World in Golden and looked at the 24.2 and 25.2. I know now that i need a slide out in the living room. We ran the generator and I'm impressed how quiet it runs although you can't use them in parks. The build quality in that Thor 24.2 was impressive actually, more than i had thought i would be impressed. The whole idea of traveling alone to places i've driven by for years appeals to me. I'm 69 and not mechanical so i'm hoping this product will hold up and not need too much work. I don't plan to pull anything if i go, at least that's how i feel now. So, i'm waiting on the new stripped chassis using the 6 speed tranny and I'll probably order when Scott tells me they are making them. Thanks. Dave

[Larry]

Dave,

Good luck! I hope it all works out well for you.

Don't let some of the issues you see some folks on here having scare you away. Though some seem major, a lot of the things that come up just require common sense and preventive measures. And a lot of the modifications and opportunities to shine that I see on here I would never attempt to tackle, and would leave it to the pros.