Anyone Upgrade Aria Inverter?

[aznytfury]

Originally Posted by HaRVey

Yes, the MS2812 fits in exactly same spot, uses the same fasteners and exact same wiring.
The MS2812 insulation manual recommends adding a jumper wire from the used to unused (my Palazzo only uses one of the two available inverter circuits) hot and neutral 110 wiring lugs, but when I called Magnum, they said it's not nessesary, so I did not. And yes, everything worked perfectly afterwards without any changes and the Firefly panel reflected the new inverter model number.
I unplugged the coach, put it in Store mode, disconnected the Chassis batteries and disconnected the House batteries, all before swapping the inverter.

Did you have change any settings at all on the Firefly control panel? Or was it literally "plug and play"? Also curious about the battery charger capacity. I have a 2017 Aria 3901 with the ME2012 and am seriously considering the upgrade to the MS2812 (some electronics haven't worked on the modified sine wave inverter). I noticed the battery charger capacity is 125 amps on the MS2812 vs. the ME2012's 100 amp battery charger. That is great, but I also noticed there is a 100 amp charger connection breaker in the house battery compartment of the Aria 3901. Do you know if that will be an issue and I will have to upgrade that breaker (or if I can de-rate the charger to 100 amps in the Firefly configuration for the new MS2812 inverter?)

Thanks!

[HaRVey]

aznytfury -
You don't need to change any setting on the Firefly panel for the new inverter to work; however you will need to set the battery type to the ones which match your batteries (i.e. for stock batteries mine were four 6V flooded batteries, which I think the Firefly panel either calls "Wet" or "Flooded" and will automatically set all other parameters accordingly) and you will need to set the amount of battery capacity to match your set up (i.e. stock four 6V batteries = 400 amp hours)
The extra battery charging capacity (125amp 12V DC) will not benefit you with wet/Flooded batteries, because they can only accept a limited amount of current without damage (controlled by the inverter/charger for the type of battery selected); however if you ever change to AGM or LiFePo you can use the extra potential.
You do not need to worry about the 100amp (110V AC) breaker on the panel, because the inverter only provides 30amps 110V AC per circuit (the MS2812 has two circuits, but I think your stock application will only use one of the two circuits.) (The 125 amps is the 12V DC charging amps, not the AC power supplied to the RV by the inverter)
The good folks at Magnum can also guide you through all of your settings, questions and recommendations. I am adding a Victrom battery management system to mine later so I can monitor and manage my battery capacity so I don't wake to dead batteries because I USD too much during the day or didn't run the Benny enough to recharge them.
Good luck!

[powerboatr]

Originally Posted by HaRVey

aznytfury -
You don't need to change any setting on the Firefly panel for the new inverter to work; however you will need to set the battery type to the ones which match your batteries (i.e. for stock batteries mine were four 6V flooded batteries, which I think the Firefly panel either calls "Wet" or "Flooded" and will automatically set all other parameters accordingly) and you will need to set the amount of battery capacity to match your set up (i.e. stock four 6V batteries = 400 amp hours)
The extra battery charging capacity (125amp 12V DC) will not benefit you with wet/Flooded batteries, because they can only accept a limited amount of current without damage (controlled by the inverter/charger for the type of battery selected); however if you ever change to AGM or LiFePo you can use the extra potential.
You do not need to worry about the 100amp (110V AC) breaker on the panel, because the inverter only provides 30amps 110V AC per circuit (the MS2812 has two circuits, but I think your stock application will only use one of the two circuits.) (The 125 amps is the 12V DC charging amps, not the AC power supplied to the RV by the inverter)
The good folks at Magnum can also guide you through all of your settings, questions and recommendations. I am adding a Victrom battery management system to mine later so I can monitor and manage my battery capacity so I don't wake to dead batteries because I USD too much during the day or didn't run the Benny enough to recharge them.
Good luck!

second calling magnum...they have good techs that can help with the ins and outs

[HaRVey]

I should have corrected my spellchecker mess ups.
Much easier to talk to Magnum than try to interpret my Greek...

[aznytfury]

So I did the inverter upgrade this a.m.! I replaced the Magnum ME2012 equipped on my 2017 Aria 3901 with a new MS2812 (2800w) inverter/charger. Install went just fine...took about 2 hours for me to do it.

It fixed several issues for me actually:

1) GFI outlet is no longer tripping under certain loads.

2) The unsettling electronic 'buzzing' sound of the microwave/convection oven combo unit is gone (probably cleaner power given the pure sine-wave configuration vs. the modified sine-wave previously).

3) The reported output voltage is now showing a correct value (~120vac vs. ~90vac) on the Firefly panel (this was always an odd thing to me). See pic.

4) My UPS for my media server now works and detects the output of the inverter (vs. before it wouldn't acknowledge the power unless I was on generator).



BTW: Any recommendations on the I/C Settings for VAC Dropout and Low Battery Cutout?

[jtyphoid]

Congratulations on the successful swap. I'm happy with the MS2012 that I swapped into my Aria 3401.

I left VAC Dropout at the Magnum default of 80VAC because I don't have a good reason to change it. I wouldn't want to set it any lower, but there are downsides (potential to drain batteries more if you have frequent brownouts) to setting it higher.

You should set low battery cutoff depending on how far you are willing to discharge your batteries, while also considering auto generator start. I set my AGS to 12.2 VDC, which is 50% DOD for flooded lead acid, then set low voltage cutoff to 12.0 to keep from completely draining the batteries if AGS fails for some reason.

Also, if you haven't already done so, check whether your solar panel is wired into your charge controller with the correct polarity. Mine and some others were wired in backwards. Just use something to cover the solar panel then swap the two solar panel wires where they connect to the charge controller if yours are backwards, too.

[aznytfury]

I upgraded my solar on the Aria 3901 this past week. I didn't do a large upgrade, just enough to offset some base load/usage and provide better charging support for the house batteries. I pulled the factory solar panel and added 3 Renogy 100 watt panels with low profile mounts. Kept the original solar controller (40 AMP capable) and leveraged the existing 6 AWG wiring. I am happy with how it turned out.

[jtyphoid]

Those panels look great! Upgrading the solar on our 3401 is on my list of things to do, but I'm going to have to get creative on where to put the panels because we don't have as much roof space as you do.

[pavemike]

Originally Posted by aznytfury

I upgraded my solar on the Aria 3901 this past week. I didn't do a large upgrade, just enough to offset some base load/usage and provide better charging support for the house batteries. I pulled the factory solar panel and added 3 Renogy 100 watt panels with low profile mounts. Kept the original solar controller (40 AMP capable) and leveraged the existing 6 AWG wiring. I am happy with how it turned out.

Attachment 19666 Attachment 19663

aznytfury,
This is off subject but, is that a TOGO Roadlink I see on your roof?

[aznytfury]

Originally Posted by pavemike

aznytfury,
This is off subject but, is that a TOGO Roadlink I see on your roof?

Yes, it is. Added it a couple months ago.

[pavemike]

Originally Posted by aznytfury

Yes, it is. Added it a couple months ago.

Thank you. I'm installing mine tomorrow. Sorry for the side track folks...Now, back to our regular scheduled programing.

[aznytfury]

Originally Posted by pavemike

Thank you. I'm installing mine tomorrow. Sorry for the side track folks...Now, back to our regular scheduled programing.

If you have any questions or run into any challenges...feel free to PM me.

[pavemike]

Thanks, I will. Hopefully, all goes well.

[NG7V]

Originally Posted by m1noel

Ours was upgraded to the MS2012 because of the issues with the GFI. It should help extend the life of the fridge and other electronics according to the info I got from Magnum. Also, no more GFI issues. I don't think going bigger would help too much, at least with the stock battery bank. It will run the stuff we need it to. Going bigger without need will use a little more battery power.
Mike

Mike: Did you make the swap yourself? Having had this inverter in use for a time, are you still of the opinion that it is enough inverter or would you have gone to an MS2812 in retrospect?

I am considering an upgrade at some point and I am interested in your views on this.

[aznytfury]

Originally Posted by NG7V

Mike: Did you make the swap yourself? Having had this inverter in use for a time, are you still of the opinion that it is enough inverter or would you have gone to an MS2812 in retrospect?

I am considering an upgrade at some point and I am interested in your views on this.

FWIW: I ended up stepping up to the MS2812 for the additional capacity when I replaced the ME2012. Dropped it in myself. Project took about 2 hours. Gives me some power flexibility to have the coffee maker, microwave, etc. all running at the same time without approaching the limit. The MS2000 is cutting it close in my opinion. The cost difference wasn't too bad. I also upgraded my house battery plant to 600 ah of LiFePO4 batteries. Gives me a lot of fully-usable energy storage.

As my next project, I am actually toying with the idea of swinging the front air conditioner thru a selector switch & soft start module so I have the option of intermittently running the AC at night in my warm climate while boon docking (without cranking on the generator in the middle of the night). If I do that, I may up my battery storage capacity to ~1200 ah since the AC draw is substantial. The point is that the MS2812 gives me that flexibility for future uses/ideas like this too.

[NG7V]

Good advice. Thank You!

I had an episode today trying to swap the GFCI made by EATON in the bathroom with something beefier like a Leviton. The forum recommended Leviton 8899 is no longer available in black so I took a chance and just got a Leviton 15A at Home Depot. All GFCI receptacles since 2015 follow UL 468 guidance and incorporate a reset lock feature as part of the self-test.

My Aria came with a 15A Eaton that I suspected of tripping. I also had a blown coffee maker made by Black and Decker, the one with the thermos carafe. I went through 2 of these, the second went out in one day. I knew I had a power issue but I didn't know where. Co-incidentally, I had a USB charger for my RVI brake hub in the bathroom that developed a bad micro-usb connection while on the road. Combined with several GFCI trips ups, I was completely confused about what was going on.

Too many moving parts to figure things out. So:
I replaced the bad RVI hub, I returned the 2 broken coffee makers, got a refund, no questions asked (I think they have a known issue with that model). I sat down and read everything Thor related to GFCI issues and decided to attack the cheaper end first: the receptacle.

To make a long story short: The stock inverter generates so many harmonics that neither of the Eaton or Litton GFCI receptacles would successfully pass self test. The only way i found to bring up either of them was to enable shore power and reset them. Once they are successfully reset and ready to operate, they will work perfectly on the inverter. That's why this issue is so hard to figure out.

I suspect the coffee makers I had are susceptible to the same harmonics or RFI. I researched it and then found a one plug RFI/Surge suppressor that would probably fix the coffee maker problem.

To me, that is unacceptable because if you are boon-docking or on the road and the GFCI trips, you are toast until the time you reach a shore connection to reset it. That sux big time. The generator will not help because the circuit is on the inverter and the inverter needs to be on pass-through mode and that is available on shore power only...

Thus my decision to opt for pure sine inverter but OUCH! the price!

[TurnerFam]

interesting take on a 'GFCI' issue, but I'll weigh in on my experience:

our 14 Palazzo came stock with the ME2012, which to this day has never had any 'issues' with any of the GFCI outlets or the master GFCI outlet in the bath. Also, while we had the Magnum inverter replaced by the EXACT same model several years ago, due to an unrelated issue, we still have had NO issues with the GFCI circuit, AND, to add, we've had NO issues with the operation of the Whirlpool Fridge, since we started full-timing in the Palazzo back in August 2014 and after 110,000 miles...

To this day, regardless of what people 'say' about a modified wave inverter, I doubt seriously that it has ANYTHING to do with GFCI circuits, and I highly doubt it has ANYTHING to do with the operation of appliances, and it certainly has never caused ANY issues with ALL of our technology, whether laptops, gaming Desktops, gaming consoles, Televisions, Internet modems, phones charges, etc.

I think the 'problem' that can come to view with GFCI outlets or circuits is HOW THEY ARE WIRED. You can certainly assume that any even 'slight' wiring issue can create a tripping annoyance from a GFCI circuit, while regular outlets work perfectly - a loose wire, etc - referring to how the FACTORY wires them.
While a 'new' MS model inverter might seem to 'solve' the problem, I suspect that it will eventually show it's head down the road, regardless.

[TurnerFam]

also, our coffee maker or microwave also had no issues on our ME2012


I think you've 'ouched' a little too soon - check other options first.

[aznytfury]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

interesting take on a 'GFCI' issue, but I'll weigh in on my experience:

our 14 Palazzo came stock with the ME2012, which to this day has never had any 'issues' with any of the GFCI outlets or the master GFCI outlet in the bath. Also, while we had the Magnum inverter replaced by the EXACT same model several years ago, due to an unrelated issue, we still have had NO issues with the GFCI circuit, AND, to add, we've had NO issues with the operation of the Whirlpool Fridge, since we started full-timing in the Palazzo back in August 2014 and after 110,000 miles...

To this day, regardless of what people 'say' about a modified wave inverter, I doubt seriously that it has ANYTHING to do with GFCI circuits, and I highly doubt it has ANYTHING to do with the operation of appliances, and it certainly has never caused ANY issues with ALL of our technology, whether laptops, gaming Desktops, gaming consoles, Televisions, Internet modems, phones charges, etc.

I think the 'problem' that can come to view with GFCI outlets or circuits is HOW THEY ARE WIRED. You can certainly assume that any even 'slight' wiring issue can create a tripping annoyance from a GFCI circuit, while regular outlets work perfectly - a loose wire, etc - referring to how the FACTORY wires them.
While a 'new' MS model inverter might seem to 'solve' the problem, I suspect that it will eventually show it's head down the road, regardless.

I am glad yours has worked without issue. Unfortunately, my experience with the ME2012 was different. Our 2017 Thor Aria 3901 came equipped with an ME2012 from the factory and the following issues occurred:

1) GFCI would trip when I plugged in our trailer lighting to the outside protected outlet when I was inverting with the ME2012.
2) A UPS would not recognize the AC power when inverting from the ME2012 (used for protecting a NAS for a media server).
3) The Firefly Integrations display would read the output VAC as 90 volts vs. expected 120 volts when inverting from the ME2012.
4) The microwave's LED display/clock electronics produced a noticeable high pitch whine when inverting with the ME2012 (not really an issue, but odd nonetheless).

Switching to a pure sine wave MS2812 solved all four items for me.

From Magnum Energy's manual for the MS2812 suggesting that there is a difference on what will run on a modified sine wave:

Modified Sine Wave – Also referred to as
a “quasi sine wave” or a “modified square
wave”. This output looks like a one-step
staircase and the waveform changes its
width to continually provide the correct
RMS output voltage regardless of the
battery voltage. Most loads that run from a
sine wave will also run from a modified sine
wave. However, things such as clocks and
furnace controllers may have trouble.
• Sine Wave – An AC waveform that looks
like rolling waves on water. It rises and falls
smoothly with time. The grid puts out a sine
waveform. Any plug-in AC equipment will
operate from a sine wave output inverter.

[NG7V]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

also, our coffee maker or microwave also had no issues on our ME2012

I think you've 'ouched' a little too soon - check other options first.

My Cuisinart coffee maker and my microwave are quite happy as well. I am not concerned about them. If you don't mind try this:

Make sure you have a GFCI of the latest variety. Disconnect your shore power to let your rig fall into inverter mode and then press the test button. You should see a yellow light turn on. Next, press the reset button. If you can reset your outlet without issue you are good to go. Mine does not reset, the reset button is locked and will not let me reset the receptacle. If i press the test button again, it posts a blinking red light because it failed the self-test. If I reconnect the shore power, the inverter goes into pass-through and the reset button is unlocked and it allows me to enable the receptacle. While on shore power, the GFCI trips and resets just like it should. I tried this on two different GFCI receptacles, both behaved in exactly the same manner.

There is no lose wire in this, there is no mixed up wiring to look for, one thing changed: the quality of the power what the GFCI sees and expects.

Could it be looking at peek voltage? Obviously the inverter is calibrating the RMS value to 75% of peek as it should so that's okay, Could there be harmonics that case spikes above 120V that are visible to the test circuit of the outlet? Maybe... I don't know...

Oh forgot to mention. If I go on and off shore power, the receptacle works perfectly, no failure. Problem happens only if it trips while on the inverter.

A pure sine inverter would produce a good result on any of these characteristics. That is why I am betting on it being the solution. I just find the cost a bit more than what I expected at first.

For me, it isn't an emergency. I can cope with all of that by connecting my coffee maker when I am in a park connected to shore. I don't boon-dock that much so, it is very unlikely that the GFCI will trip at all. What got me going on this is that my Black and Decker coffee maker tripped my GFCI when I was on the road. I left it connected in its outlet on that trip and tripped my outlet when it failed. I could not reset the circuit, that puzzled me.