Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Tech Forums > Modifications and Updates
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-12-2018, 09:22 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 498
THOR #12189
Inverter Charger Upgrade Question

I'm looking to perform an upgrade on a 30AMP coach using this 2500w pure sign inverter charger. I was wondering if anyone new:

1) The advantagse/disadvantages of using an inverter/charger with a automatic transfer switch in one unit.

2) Whether this can be a direct replacement for the charger and wired to supply power to everything. If it gets power on AC, it gets power from the inverter.

I'm struggling to understand why folks would only supply one bank or one circuit with inverter power when it seems the inverter's feed could just wire up to the existing breaker box/fuse panel; where the owner controls what draws juice, and when, as not to overload the system.

I know I have to be missing something . I mean, who wouldn't want that if there wasn't some rationale reason for not implementing it.

Looking forward to your feedback. Please don't be shy. Feel free to add as much info/detail as your fingers can handle. One thing I don't need on my hands is a coach that's been toasted from the inside out.

Thanks.
__________________

The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 09:51 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 1,454
THOR #6411
The bigger the inverter the greater the idle draw and the lower efficiency at partial loads. The inverter should be sized to supply the largest single draw. To make it any larger is a convenience and not a requirement. Better inverters have a power saver function which turns the inverter off until there is a load in the circuits then it wakes-up. You are correct to buy a true sign wave inverter as it is more efficient in supplying power for inductive loads. If you have only pure resistance load, the a modified sign wave is just as good and much cheaper. Most steer away from dual usage devices because they are more expensive to repair and the heat generated is concentrated; plus the better power centers include a good four stage converter. I like single action devices in series rather than "one does everything box", as they are much easier to trouble shoot and replace.


Only an opinion and not meant to be gospel.
__________________

__________________
Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
Beau388 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 10:22 PM   #3
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 11,170
THOR #8860
I'm still pretty dumb about these things... ... But if you don't add a serious upgrade to your battery capacity: won't you just be draining what you've got REALLY fast?
(Assuming that you're adding the big inverter due to wanting to run more "AC stuff"...)
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
FMCA Member F473304

Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Former coach: Thor Outlaw 29-H
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:11 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
TurnerFam's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Palazzo 33.3 34'bunkhouse
State: Alabama
Posts: 1,792
THOR #4735
on a 30amp coach, you basically only need an inverter capable of maybe 15amps, since the other 'amps' used in your coach are from appliances that cannot run thru the inverter, such as air conditioners, water heaters(elec element), etc., basically only the few 'outlets' that you have in your rV, such as to the microwave, bathroom, living room, tv(s), etc.

our 2000w ME2012 modified sine wave inverter handles all of our outlets, which includes all of those aforementioned items. We must use the shore power or generator for air conditioning and electric water heating.
__________________
the Turners
'14 Palazzo 33.3 bunkhouse 34' diesel
KingTailgater2 Dish HD, 100w/5a SOLAR, BlueOx
100,000+mi since '14 - US, Alaska, Canada.... was WC Georgia, then W NorthCarolina, now Lacey's Spring, AL : )
TurnerFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:16 PM   #5
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 11,170
THOR #8860
What is that equation for figuring out wattage; based upon amps and volts again?
(I forgot to write it down... )
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
FMCA Member F473304

Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Former coach: Thor Outlaw 29-H
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:51 PM   #6
Axis/Vegas Enthusiast
 
JamieGeek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Michigan
Posts: 8,125
THOR #1150
Rather simple:

Watts = Amps * Volts
__________________
2014 Thor Axis 24.1
2018 Chevy Bolt
blog - https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
JamieGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 01:14 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 3,929
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
on a 30amp coach, you basically only need an inverter capable of maybe 15amps, since the other 'amps' used in your coach are from appliances that cannot run thru the inverter, such as air conditioners, water heaters(elec element), etc., basically only the few 'outlets' that you have in your rV, such as to the microwave, bathroom, living room, tv(s), etc.

....cut.....
Only limit now is money.

There are upgrade kits with 3600 watt rated inverters which makes full-coach 30-Amp wiring possible; as if it were a generator. Except for furnace and water heater that can be run on propane, everything else can be powered from batteries. Just takes deep pockets — much of it for the battery bank.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 12:24 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 498
THOR #12189
Thanks for taking time out of your day to share what you know. I really do appreciate it. I tried to answer below. Noone has stepped up and said it shouldn’t be wired into the breaker panel, so I’m guessing that’s safe – as long as you take responsibility for power management. I just won’t run the A/C while I’m away in case the power goes out. That way the load doesn’t try to transfer to inverter power. On second thought, if I isolate a circuit, it would only have to be that one. I love this place. It makes you think out of the box.

I’ll simply get one subpanel, one 20AMP breaker and isolate the A/C on its own circuit. If the power goes out, the A/C stops and doesn’t try to transfer to inverter power.

Ok, time to make swiss cheese out of that notion. PLEASE fire away! It’s easier (and cheaper) than putting out a fire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
…Only an opinion and not meant to be gospel.


Thanks Beau and only taken that way.

I came across your points about true sine and as that's what I also understand. I did however come across posts from some who said that the device chargers would even out the frequency. I can see where all the frequency hype could be a marketing tool but there's too many people in each camp to take sides. Unless you design circuitry for a living, and more so that kind of circuitry, you can't possibly know hands down right from wrong? I'll spend the extra $$ to play it safe. The difference in cost could be a new laptop. Then add the cost of a bare metal restore on top of that. Been there, done that and not worth the extra money. The device has a power saver mode and I really like that idea and can see using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
on a 30amp coach, you basically only need an inverter capable of maybe 15amps, since the other 'amps' used in your coach are from appliances that cannot run thru the inverter, such as air conditioners, water heaters(elec element), etc., basically only the few 'outlets' that you have in your rV, such as to the microwave, bathroom, living room, tv(s), etc.


Thanks for taking the time to add to the discussion. You’re not concerned about electronic equipment and the modified sine wave? How long have you been using that inverter with sensitive electronics. Those that dismiss the frequency hype may not be all that wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
… Only limit now is money.


Isn’t that almost always the case????

3500w???? Ohh, ohh, ohhh, oh, oh…MORE POWER!!!

Here they say to run the inverter output to a 30amp outlet and merely change where you plug in the coach (see method 4). It’s so simplistic it’s almost scary but I’m really liking it right now!

Thanks again for all your feedback.
Ed
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 12:39 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 2,882
THOR #7035
"Sensitive" electronics are few and far between. Most electronics use DC which has been rectified and filtered from the AC so MSW inverters don't bother them unless they do a poor job of filtering the harmonic frequencies and are sensitive to those harmonics. Rotating equipment that relies on the pure sine wave to create a smoothly rotating magnetic field are more susceptible to MSW inverters as they will draw more current to do the same work.

You can't go wrong with a PSW inverter but there is a lot of unjustified hype against MSW inverters which have their use as well at a lower price point.
__________________
The USER Formally Known As TFryman
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 12:41 PM   #10
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 11,170
THOR #8860
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
Rather simple:

Watts = Amps * Volts
Thanks! I actually wrote it down this time...
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
FMCA Member F473304

Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Former coach: Thor Outlaw 29-H
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 12:46 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 498
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfryman View Post
...Rotating equipment that relies on the pure sine wave to create a smoothly rotating magnetic field are more susceptible to MSW inverters as they will draw more current to do the same work.

You can't go wrong with a PSW inverter but there is a lot of unjustified hype against MSW inverters which have their use as well at a lower price point.
Thanks Ted. Your post was timely. Just as I started walking in one direction, your post pulled me back as to say "well hold on there one gosh darn minute..." LOL. Seriously - thanks.
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 12:46 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 498
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
Thanks! I actually wrote it down this time...
Just don't forget where you put it Bob.
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 12:52 PM   #13
Axis/Vegas Enthusiast
 
JamieGeek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Michigan
Posts: 8,125
THOR #1150
I find it interesting on the forums here when there are multiple threads running discussing almost equivalent things (or nearly the same things).

In this thread: Need help with self installed Power Inverter issue we have someone who has just completed what you want to do. In their case they installed the inverter after the converter/breaker panel off the breaker that goes to all the outlets.

I would think that this is more in line with what you want to do. It is fairly simple in that it only involves 1 line (all the non-GFI outlets).

The advantage here: All the high current A/C appliances are not on the inverter and thus you wouldn't have to worry about overloading it via them (A/C, water heater, etc.).

If you think about it: it really doesn't matter if you're installing before or after the breaker panel (I'm speaking physically here) because the inverter will be installed in the same spot--its just where/how you run the wires.
__________________
2014 Thor Axis 24.1
2018 Chevy Bolt
blog - https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
JamieGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 12:54 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 498
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
...The inverter should be sized to supply the largest single draw. To make it any larger is a convenience and not a requirement.
Beau, just one thought on this? Unless you plan to run that one thing, and one thing only, I believe you have to add up all the things you may run at once and size the inverter to that. For example, I like to brew a cup of coffee, make a couple slices of toast and catch the morning news all at the same time. To do that, and only that, I would need at least 2000w.

Coffee Maker ..... 600w
Toaster ............. 750w
TV .................... 600w
Total ............... 1950w

Hope that helped?
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 01:12 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 498
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
I find it interesting on the forums here when there are multiple threads running discussing almost equivalent things (or nearly the same things).

In this thread: http://www.thorforums.com/forums/f8/need-help-self-installed-power-inverter-issue-13024.html we have someone who has just completed what you want to do. In their case they installed the inverter after the converter/breaker panel off the breaker that goes to all the outlets.
...
If you think about it: it really doesn't matter if you're installing before or after the breaker panel (I'm speaking physically here) because the inverter will be installed in the same spot--its just where/how you run the wires.
I hear you and thanks for the add. I see where you might have thought I could glean something from his post.


I read that post as tactical and post-mortem. I'm in the strategy/investigatory phase of this and he was way ahead of me. A/C is the only thing I DEFINTELY don't want running off the inverter instead of coming in after the breaker panel and only lighting up a few wall sockets. Water heater? Maybe, we'll see. If not, I'll isolate that too in the subpanel for the A/C.

I'm researching the feasibility of feeding inverter power to the breaker/fuse panel. I realize this shifts the burden of responsible power management onto my shoulders (and the cost of any bonehead mistakes) but it's something I want to try, save a sure fire way to burn down the coach. From original post: “…If it gets power on AC, it gets power from the inverter”.
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 01:16 PM   #16
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 11,170
THOR #8860
Besides: most of us are probably suffering from "A.D.H.D." also!
Now: where did I write down that equation?
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
FMCA Member F473304

Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Former coach: Thor Outlaw 29-H
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 01:18 PM   #17
Axis/Vegas Enthusiast
 
JamieGeek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Michigan
Posts: 8,125
THOR #1150
Quote:
Originally Posted by RvEd View Post


I hear you and thanks for the add. I see where you might have thought I could glean something from his post.


I read that post as tactical and post-mortem. I'm in the strategy/investigatory phase of this and he was way ahead of me. A/C is the only thing I DEFINTELY don't want running off the inverter instead of coming in after the breaker panel and only lighting up a few wall sockets. Water heater? Maybe, we'll see. If not, I'll isolate that too in the subpanel for the A/C.

I'm researching the feasibility of feeding inverter power to the breaker/fuse panel. I realize this shifts the burden of responsible power management onto my shoulders (and the cost of any bonehead mistakes) but it's something I want to try, save a sure fire way to burn down the coach. From original post: “…If it gets power on AC, it gets power from the inverter”.
Yeah I see where your coming from.

There are, at least, a couple of appliances that make no sense running off the inverter (not including air conditioning):
- The refer: It is far more efficient on propane
- Likewise the water heater is also far more efficient on propane
In both cases, when running on A/C they just use a resistive heating element which is hugely inefficient (just ask any EV driver in the northern states during winter how inefficient a resistive heating element is).

Sadly us clever humans haven't figured out a way to heat something better than fire (yeah the refer uses fire).
__________________
2014 Thor Axis 24.1
2018 Chevy Bolt
blog - https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
JamieGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 01:37 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 498
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
(yeah the refer uses fire).
LOL - I know - right? the first time someone said that to me I thought they were trying to get me to bite. That is, until I saw the flame. Who'da thunk it???
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 02:53 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 3,929
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by RvEd View Post
Beau, just one thought on this? Unless you plan to run that one thing, and one thing only, I believe you have to add up all the things you may run at once and size the inverter to that. For example, I like to brew a cup of coffee, make a couple slices of toast and catch the morning news all at the same time. To do that, and only that, I would need at least 2000w.

Coffee Maker ..... 600w
Toaster ............. 750w
TV .................... 600w
Total ............... 1950w

Hope that helped?

What kind of TV uses 600 watts? The latest 32” Samsung I purchased uses under 50 watts.

Anyway, inverters are not most efficient at 100% of power rating — it’s much less than that. For that reason oversizing some won’t be that bad. A good point was made about idling power consumption, but there is a lot of variation between brands and models. Make sure you check into specs in detail.


My technical opinion is that there isn’t much of a middle ground on how to approach your original question. If you want to wire the entire coach to run off the inverter (and some Class B coaches are doing it), you need a very large inverter and huge battery bank; otherwise it makes little practical sense.

In most cases that’s not practical, particularly as a retrofit on an existing motorhome that wasn’t designed to optimize limited battery capacity. Like stated previously by different people, there are so many high-power items you’d never want to power off batteries that it makes no sense to connect them to the inverter. You always have generator as a backup.

The only coaches I’ve seen that have the entire coach powered from an inverter are those that have no generator. And even those only replace the conventional Onan generator with an engine-powered alternator.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 03:05 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
TurnerFam's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Palazzo 33.3 34'bunkhouse
State: Alabama
Posts: 1,792
THOR #4735
correct, no TV is going to be pulling those type of watts, mine runs on less than 1 amp at 120v, the receiver maybe a little more, it's not that much.

what I will add, though, from experience, is that most folks don't use their inverter for high-draw HEAT related items, like the toaster and the coffee maker, since both draw huge amps during their heating cycle, and can not only quickly draw down the batteries, but trip the inverter or circuit breaker, OR cause the Inverter to cut off due to the LBCO setting(Low Battery Cut Out).
most generally use the Generator or shore power for these items, just like a hair dryer, which falls into the same category.

'CAN' you do these things, especially 'all' at the same time.... sure, but it's doubtful you'll do it very often since you'll quickly realize that Inverters aren't designed well for those type of activities. If you use your microwave for 30secs to a minute, you can get away with it, but if you're trying to pop some corn for 4 or 5 minutes, you might find that an Inverter is lacking in that job detail.

It's not so much the 'size' of your inverter, as they mostly all can handle inverting very well, but it's the 'size' and condition of your House battery bank...that's where the power comes from.
__________________

__________________
the Turners
'14 Palazzo 33.3 bunkhouse 34' diesel
KingTailgater2 Dish HD, 100w/5a SOLAR, BlueOx
100,000+mi since '14 - US, Alaska, Canada.... was WC Georgia, then W NorthCarolina, now Lacey's Spring, AL : )
TurnerFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 08:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×