LiFePO4 Upgrade?

[Obiwan57]

Hello, I own a 2022 Thor Vegas 24.3, and I’m interested in upgrading to lithium batteries when the time comes.

My solar controller and charger indicate a setting for lead-acid / /AGM and lithium, so my question is, am I drop-in plug and play or are inverter considerations needed?

Thanks all in advance.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Obiwan57

Hello, I own a 2022 Thor Vegas 24.3, and I’m interested in upgrading to lithium batteries when the time comes.

My solar controller and charger indicate a setting for lead-acid / /AGM and lithium, so my question is, am I drop-in plug and play or are inverter considerations needed?

Thanks all in advance.

An inverter takes your battery voltage and uses it to create 120 VAC for outlets and appliances in your MH - not a consideration in changing your batteries and AFAIK the 24.1 does not come with an inverter.

Your solar charger is only one thing to consider if you change to lithium house batteries:
You need to consider your converter charging capabilities
You need to consider the engine alternator charging capabilities and your BIRD/BIM.

Lotsa threads on this forum about changing to LiFePO4 house batteries.

[DavidEM]

More specifics to 16ACE27’s recommendations above:

Your converter’s battery charger probably doesn’t have a Li setting. Replace it with one that does and increase the amp output. The ubiquitous WFCO 8945 will only charge Li batteries to 70% and slowly at that.

Replace the Precision Circuits BIM 160 with their Li BIM 225 which uses a cycling algorithm to avoid overtaxing your alternator. Make sure it is wired correctly. Thor often wires them backwards.

David

[Judge]

Highly recommend you look at BigBattery. They have a nice sales going on right now. They have the best Ah / $ value that I could find for a high quality LiFePO4. They also offer an built-in On/Off Switch, LED Voltage Readout and quick connect battery cable.

https://bigbattery.com/by-voltage/#12


The previous posts are sound however we can make more recommendations based on your use case and expectations.

In my case I installed five of the 170Ah BigBattery units for a total of 850Ah. While I did install the LI-BIM 225 instead of a DC-to-DC Charger since I have two alterbators.

I also opted to go with an Inverter / Charger instead of the Converter / Charger. It offers more configurability and more efficient charging. I also upgraded from 2000W to 3000W for the Inverter and rewired my coach so I could run any circuit off the Inverter (A/C, Oven, etc.).

[Walter Brauer]

Judge,

My Big Battery arrived. Can you direct me to a thread, or provide more input, on the other system mods required, or optional, for a successful installation?

Thank you,
Walter

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Walter Brauer

Judge,

My Big Battery arrived. Can you direct me to a thread, or provide more input, on the other system mods required, or optional, for a successful installation?

Thank you,
Walter

Hi Walter.....

Here are a couple threads that may help. The first one is a thread mixed with my and a couple other guys doing the LiFePO4 Upgrade. I went with the LI-BIM 225 and the Victron Bluetooth SmartShunt 500A Battery Monitor. I also replaced my Converter / Charger with a Progressive Dynamics Lithium Model (but I ultimately went with an Inverter / Charger).


https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...ade-26210.html


This second thread I started when I decided to upgrade my Inverter to a larger Inverter / Charger and then rewire the coach so my Inverter can power any circuit in the coach. I ended up decommissioning the Progressive Dynamics LI Converter / Charger.

https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...wer-30879.html


If you have specific questions, please let me know.

[DavidEM]

There are threads that discuss the issues in much excruciating detail, but let me expand on my post above and give you a more comprehensive summary:

Thor usually installs a WFCO 8955 converter/charger on your new Vegas. My 2021 Axis has one. It charges rather slowly, one because it is only rated at 55 amps and two because it has a very poor charging algorithm that will probably only charge your new Li batteries to 50-70%. Progressive Dynamics makes a Li specific charger that is rated at 80 amps (which your new Big Battery can take) and has a Li specific charging algorithm.

Your coach almost certainly has a Precision Circuits BIM 160 battery isolator (my 2021 Axis does). That one is made for LA batteries and should be replaced with their Li-BIM 225 which is designed to work better with Li batteries and more importantly limits current from the chassis alternator to keep it from overheating and failing by cycling on and off about 50%.

You can read the other threads, but the above is the gist of it.

David

[Judge]

Originally Posted by DavidEM

There are threads that discuss the issues in much excruciating detail, but let me expand on my post above and give you a more comprehensive summary:

Thor usually installs a WFCO 8955 converter/charger on your new Vegas. My 2021 Axis has one. It charges rather slowly, one because it is only rated at 55 amps and two because it has a very poor charging algorithm that will probably only charge your new Li batteries to 50-70%. Precision Dynamics makes a Li specific charger that is rated at 80 amps (which your new Big Battery can take) and has a Li specific charging algorithm.

Your coach almost certainly has a Precision Circuits BIM 160 battery isolator (my 2021 Axis does). That one is made for LA batteries and should be replaced with their Li-BIM 225 which is designed to work better with Li batteries and more importantly limits current from the chassis alternator by cycling on and off about 50%.

You can read the other threads, but the above is the gist of it.

David

A couple of comments.....

First, he can't use the 80A Progressive Dynamics LI version unless he has a 20A outlet in his coach. Most coaches don't have the special 20A outlet so that would be something to add to the upgrade list. Otherwise he is limited to the 60A Charger.

Personally...... after going the Progressive Dynamics Lithium Converter / Charger route originally myself I don't recommend that option for all people / coaches.

In my case I determined it was better to go with an Inverter / Charger than the Converter / Charger.

In larger coaches where the Converter / Charger is located far from the battery compartment, you will never get 80A of charging.... or even 60A for that matter. Thor uses crappy wiring that is not of the proper size for the length of the run. As a result you can't get adequate charging out of the Converter.

I installed the 60A version and typically only saw a max of ~25A out of my 60A Progessive Dynamics LI Converter / Charger. I could have done a new wiring run with the proper size wire so that I could get more charging current, but I decided not to since I planned to move to a larger Inverter so I could power anything in the coach.

I went with the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 Inverter / Charger capable of charting at 150A (the BigBattery units can handle 175A) plus it is completely configurable. With the much shorter cable run and properly sized cables, my batteries will charge at well over 100A now when I have it configured for 125A charging.

[DavidEM]

Comments to Judge's comments in bold below:

Originally Posted by Judge

A couple of comments.
First, he can't use the 80A Progressive Dynamics LI version unless he has a 20A outlet in his coach. Most coaches don't have the special 20A outlet so that would be something to add to the upgrade list. Otherwise he is limited to the 60A Charger. All you have to do is replace the 15A breaker that serves the charger with a 20A and upgrade the short 12" AC wire to 12 gauge. That should be sufficient AC power for an 80A charger

Personally...... after going the Progressive Dynamics Lithium Converter / Charger route originally I don't recommend that option for all people / coaches.

In my case I determined it was better to go with an Inverter / Charger than the Converter / Charger. Yes a Li specific inveter/charger is probably better but that is another kettle of fish.

In larger coaches where the Converter / Charger is located far from the battery compartment, you will never get 80A of charging.... or even 60A for that matter. Thor uses crappy wiring that is not of the proper size for the length of the run. As a result you can't get adequate charging out of the Converter.

In the Vegas/Axis, the battery is about five feet from the converter and is wired with #6 gauge wire. The voltage drop in #6 over five feet is 0.3 which is probably ok to provide close to 60A over that short distance. You can upgrade the wire if you want to, but you may also want to upgrade the 50A breaker near the battery that protects this wire if you go larger to support more than 50A. It is unlikely you will ever use more than 50A though.

I installed the 60A version and typically only saw ~25A out of my 60A Progessice Dynamics LI Converter / Charger. I could have done a new wiring run with the proper size wire so that I could get more charging current, but I decided not to since I planned to move to a larger Inverter so I could power anything in the coach.

I went with the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 Inverter / Charger capable of charting at 150A (the BigBattery units can handle 175A) plus it is completely configurable. With the shorter cable run and larger cables, my batteries will charge at well over 100A now when I have it configured for 125A charging.

I can't fault this plan if you want to charge really fast and need an inverter.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by DavidEM

Comments to Judge's comments in bold below:

A couple of comments.
First, he can't use the 80A Progressive Dynamics LI version unless he has a 20A outlet in his coach. Most coaches don't have the special 20A outlet so that would be something to add to the upgrade list. Otherwise he is limited to the 60A Charger. All you have to do is replace the 15A breaker that serves the charger with a 20A and upgrade the short 12" AC wire to 12 gauge. That should be sufficient AC power for an 80A charger

Easy but not quite that easy. In my WFCO Power Distribution Center, the Converter outlet is on the back of the Power Center and not a typical outlet. He would need to purchase a 20A outlet and a box and mount it to the floor or wall behind his Power Center.


My Converter was under the bed and about 20' from the battery compartment. In the end it was easier to go with the Inverter / Charger since it was less than 5 feet from where my batteries were being installed and I wanted more Inverter power to run the A/C units, oven, etc.

[Obiwan57]

My controller does have a Lithium setting, so that may not apply. I will be consulting my dealer and Thor about what else is required. I just may be plug and play after all.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Obiwan57

My controller does have a Lithium setting, so that may not apply. I will be consulting my dealer and Thor about what else is required. I just may be plug and play after all.

You would still need to swap out your BIM 160 (if you have it on your coach) with the LI-BIM 225 so your alternator can properly charge the LiFePO4's.

[Obiwan57]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

An inverter takes your battery voltage and uses it to create 120 VAC for outlets and appliances in your MH - not a consideration in changing your batteries and AFAIK the 24.1 does not come with an inverter.

Your solar charger is only one thing to consider if you change to lithium house batteries:
You need to consider your converter charging capabilities
You need to consider the engine alternator charging capabilities and your BIRD/BIM.

Lotsa threads on this forum about changing to LiFePO4 house batteries.

Hello and thanks for the reply; my Vegas does have an inverter, I have sent queries to Thor and my local dealer and will await their response.

[Boatman]

Been reading all I can about putting Lithium batteries in my couch. I know I need to change the BIM160 and the WFCO 9855 converter/charger. What are the advantages/disadvantages of a single large 200/300 amp battery or 2 150 amp batteries?

[DavidEM]

Changing from BIM 160 to a Li BIM 225 is an exact drop in replacement. Each old wire goes to the exact same terminal on the new one except as noted above, make sure Thor wired it right and if not, fix it.

The WFCO has a separate charger inside underneath the breaker/fuse panel that you remove and replace with a drop in Progressive Dynamics Li compatible charger.

You probably should upgrade the wire size and breaker that feeds AC to the charger to 12 gauge and 20 amps from 14 gauge and 15 amps. The 80A charger will pull more AC amps, possibly more than 15.

The single big battery probably keeps the cells better balanced than two separate batteries, but probably not enough to make any real difference.

David

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Boatman

Been reading all I can about putting Lithium batteries in my couch. I know I need to change the BIM160 and the WFCO 9855 converter/charger. What are the advantages/disadvantages of a single large 200/300 amp battery or 2 150 amp batteries?

Depends on the batteries and their use. That single big battery may only be rated to supply 100 amps continuous. If the two smaller batteries can supply 100 amps each; now you can supply 200 amps. Important stuff if you plan on powering an inverter.