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Old 07-07-2018, 11:24 PM   #1
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Try this first before you buy 2nd AC unit or bring your unit in for AC service.

I been wanting to share this for 4 weeks so I finally joined the forum today so I can share some of my success stories. This is my most satisfying (and cheapest) so far.

This might be a bit long winded for my first post but I wanted to tell the entire problem and my solution so please read along. I have read about this same exact problem 20 times + on this forum so I hope it helps others. It might save you $800 - $1000 over installing a 2nd AC unit so might be worth a try - you decide.

I will "try" and keep my other posts about my other mods more brief. (I said "try" LOL). And before you ask I will try and post some pictures later.

When I purchased my 2017 Axis brand new the 15000 BTU AC was not cold enough and was driving me crazy. The best it would do was around 85 - 87 deg inside temp after being on all day in the hot sun (95 deg + outside) while driving or parked at the “trail head” (Mtn biker here). At first I thought it was not the AC's fault and I fitted all of my windows with bubble wrap like I read on this forum (thanks to Jerry' Hurricane Mods and many others), added the extra AC cold air vent on cover, then inserted roof vent foam inserts to block all the heat that I could. That helped some (Maybe 82 deg at best) but not enough and took forever to get down to this temp once the RV heated up.

So right before I had a few things done on my punch list this spring (but after I fixed 20 + items myself first) one of the Camping World employees at service desk gave me a useful tip (imagine that- LOL) that I have NOT read on ANY forum or in any of my many searches on this subject.

He said to move the temp probe ("Thermistor probe") up a little to see if that would help but not too much so the unit don’t frost up. So after researching on that topic for a few weeks I thought I would try a few things myself before I have CW tear into it.

At first I decided insulated the AC box (on roof) really well with left over Dynomat and Frost King duct insulation (I did the entire aluminum ductwork under the plastic cover on roof). Then I used the foam rubber pipe insulation on the exposed AC copper pipes to prevent frosting up. Left it like this for a week or so - This helped some but I was really doing this to help with the 2nd mod I was planning. So I took out my automotive AC thermometer and stuck it directly in the cold air path inside RV at AC cover - it was reading about 65 deg. Small improvement (but im not sure by how much since I didn’t take a before temp – sorry).

For 2nd part of this job I removed the inside cover and used aluminum duct tape to seal up leaky ductwork and added some half inch soft foam to insulate between cover to the duct work (many small leaks - im sure this helped a lot - check yours now!).

3rd part of AC mod - I moved temp probe up about two inches or so. Make sure it contacts the coil inside fins by slide it in and then down slowly until it stops at coil. You can see this probe on the cold air return side (this is inside the RV looking up for a single white wire with metal probe stuck in the aluminum fins about one inch from the bottom - which by the way is the location the manufacture recommends - I checked. So this might void your warrantee (move it back before AC service?)).

Now tested the cold air duct again and it was down to 55 deg! I tried it out for a day and I was able to get the inside of the RV down to like 76 deg or so. Big improvement. But the next day I thought "we can do better" and "My car AC show 35 deg at the vents why only 55 deg on the rv?" so I moved the probe up another 1.5 inches (about 4 inches total – which was about the max you should go according to my research – make sure you do your own research.) and then I checked with my temp probe - It was 45 DEG NOW!! Wow. I thought that was great and I better leave it alone - don’t want to frost up the coils or screw something else up.

Final results = 75 temp in inside of RV now on 90 - 95 deg days sitting in full sun!!!! And that’s WITHOUT BUBBLE WRAP on windows!! (70 -72 in shade).

And 70 – 73 degrees in full sun with my new “ceramic window tint” (that will be a later post – highly recommend).

Success!!

I been testing it for a few weeks now before I posted this so I knew it worked well and has NOT frosted up on me. I even went on the roof to check coils/pipes after two hours full blast and not one sign of frosting up, then I check again at 4 hours - looks normal. I also removed inside cover and looked around - no frost – even on hot humid days.

We did several day trips (and one weekend) with AC unit on for 2 - 5 hours at a time and it worked perfectly. And on the 4th of July it was on for 10 hours straight and worked perfectly the entire time.

So now when turn on the AC and the RV is hot inside (90 - 100 deg!) in 45 minutes its down to 82 - 84 deg next to kitchen sink (were I keep a digtal gauge) and 72 - 74 deg in 1.5 - 2 hours! The thermostate is in the bedroom and it will show about 2 - 3 degrees warmer temp then the kitchen. Eventally it will equalize temp with all roof ducts open. It has not problem maintaining 73 - 75 deg at any given time with door opening up some and windows not covered or shade pulled down (after my window tint) or driving down the road on a sunny days. Its been realativly cool this year (90 -92) so if its 100 outside Im sure my readings will differ some.

My 4th AC mod was installing he Coleman Mach digital thermostat (I highly recommend). Really make the system work well.

I hope this helps a few of you guys either suffering with inadequate AC units or thinking of adding a 2nd AC unit.

I hope I didn’t bore you on my first post - I thought I should explain it fully so you can decide if you want to modify yours. Im not telling you how to do it – just telling you how I did mine and you take full responsibility if something goes Wrong.

Happy trails
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Old 07-08-2018, 12:15 AM   #2
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Many thanks for a great detailed description and simple fix. That's what we like to see is quick and easy.
You can bet I will be messing with the probe movement down here in "furnace land".
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Old 07-08-2018, 01:07 AM   #3
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FYI this was on my 2017 Coleman Mach Model # 48254c869 15000 BTU AC unit.
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:27 AM   #4
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Nice descriptive post. Thanks and please post pics. Sometimes pics help to understand everything done.

And no post can be to long if its filled with good info

Jerry
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Old 07-08-2018, 05:24 AM   #5
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Thanks for the great ideas and all your research!
I just finished insulating the cold air box on the roof (which does help) and was going to paint the black shroud white but believe I will now be repositioning the freeze temp sensor up a row or two or more.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:38 AM   #6
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This is great info. Thanks. I will do the insulation of the air box and the piping.

I checked the thermistor location and note it is approximately 4 in from the bottom of the fins as it came from the factory. Don't know if Thor or Coleman places this in the unit, but as it is how it came, I guess I'll leave it alone.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:54 AM   #7
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Welcome! Super post, deserving of "sticky" status. The A/C on our Vegas is usually adequate, but I am always interested in improving efficiency. Thanks!
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:23 PM   #8
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Fantastic!! We have done most of the forum recommended modifications trying to cool down our 2017 Challenger with 2-13,5k units. We have yet to get the coach any cooler than 10 degrees lower than the outside temp. Going to try the thermisor adjustment and also the rooftop insulation mods this weekend when we are back in the coach. THANK YOU!
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:37 AM   #9
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Here is a picture of the thermistor probe. If you look below it you can see where it was at from teh factory.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:10 PM   #10
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Cool post.
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Old 07-14-2018, 05:49 AM   #11
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Good thread and valuable information.

I have a couple thoughts and additions...

Moving the temp probe upwards on the evaporator should actually make the temp sensor read colder temps, which would have the opposite result. The evaporator temps are hotter at the bottom and colder at the top.

I believe what's happening is you're moving the temp probe to a spot that has better airflow because it's more inline with the fan. The increased airflow is what's keeping the temp probe reading a little warmer, which in turn keeps the compressor running at full and in turn making the outlet temps colder.

So my point is that this "mod" shouldn't really make that much difference as far as "moving the probe higher makes the AC output colder". I believe moving the temp probe to a spot that has a little better airflow is what you did. Moving the temp probe all the way to the very top "should" result in higher outlet temps in my opinion and assessment of the operation.

Here's MY suggestion if you guys want to REALLY get some cold AC air. Especially when you're talking about very high temps in your coaches, try this... Pull the inlet vent cover and filter off, pull the evap temp probe out of the core and let it hang in the inlet air. That should all take a total of 2 minutes and is totally reversible.

YIKES! What did he say to do? Won't my AC blow up? Won't it turn into a giant ice cube? Won't I void my warranty? To those fears I say this... Relax. Nothing horrible is going to happen. Your AC isn't going to blow up. It's possible that you could ice up the evap core, but it's not that likely unless you try to get your coach down to 60 degrees by running it for hours on end without it cycling. And if you're worrying about voiding a warranty, you probably shouldn't own an RV. lol.

I don't have my temp probe in the evap core. It's hanging in the intake air. I've ran my AC for hours on end without cycling, getting the coach down into the '60's on a hot day and it didn't freeze up. The kind of use most of you are complaining about poor cooling isn't the situation where evap icing is likely. Most of you want better cooling on super hot days or when the coach is super hot inside. If the inlet air going into the AC is 80-90 degrees, it's not going to ice up.

So try it. I guaranty you will get HUGELY NOTICEABLE cooler AC output temps. If it does ice up, you're gonna know because the outlet airflow will stop. Simply turn the AC off for awhile and it will melt. Not a big deal. Stick the temp probe back in the evap core and experiment over. No harm, no foul.
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:19 PM   #12
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Wow I never heard of this. Good to know. Im not sure about the temp probe location NOT getting colder as your raise it (Im not an AC expert perhaps someone else can confirm this).

My probe was located about one inch from the bottom so the first time I raised it like 2 inches and checked the output temp and it was 55 deg temp on my temp gauge then I raised it 1.5 inches more I got 45 deg. But I also agree it "might" have more airflow towards the center of the coils. I guess if someone has a infrared temp reader they can check this out pretty easy for us.

I had one CW employee make it sound like it will start frosting from the bottom up (so the bottom is colder than the top) and not to not raise it too much. But perhaps he was just speculating or theorizing as he was behind the part counter and not in the shop working.

But I think your Idea of just removing it - at lest temporary sound intriguing. I would not want to see this probe hanging down "outside" but I think you are letting your probe dangle down "inside" the air return and its still under the plastic cover? Perhap we need to use a diff word? LOL All of this "Probing" might sound better on a diff forum - LOL .

I think mine setup is perfect the way it is (for me) so I will leave well enough alone. But your idea sounds like it might work for a few folks.

Did you ever take a reading on the output temp? I would be interested to see what it shows. Have you run it all day (like 10 – 12 hours) straight like this? If so did it frost up at all.

Thanks for the info.
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Old 07-14-2018, 05:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long & Winding road View Post

Did you ever take a reading on the output temp? I would be interested to see what it shows. Have you run it all day (like 10 – 12 hours) straight like this? If so did it frost up at all.

Ok so I did a little testing for you... haha.

With an infrared heat gun it does show that the temps at the top of the evaporator are colder. It's not super accurate because I was shooting the thermometer at an angle since it wouldn't fit all the way inside. I didn't take the unit apart to verify which end the high and low side lines come in though. That would tell you exactly what areas of the evaporator will be colder. I've had AC evaporators freeze up, if I remember right they mostly freeze from the center and the edges are last to freeze. I've had aftermarket AC's stop all airflow and turn into a giant ice cube inside. No big deal, you just turn it off until it melts.

The edges of the core showed warmer, which makes perfect sense. Putting the probe at the absolute edges of the core could be a good idea.

I've ran mine for about 2 hours straight with no compressor cycling and it didn't freeze up. About a 90 degree day, entire coach in direct sun, inside coach temp was down to 67 degrees, (!!! It was pretty d@mn cold!) and outlet temps were in the very low 40's.

Your question about running it "all day- 10-12 hours" is my (and yours too) point in all this. If you have to run your AC non-stop all day long with no cycling to maintain a decent temp, something is wrong. It seems to me that Coleman is pretty conservative on their evaporator icing prevention strategies. I think they're cycling the compressor at temps that are way too high. Someone in this thread quoted Coleman's inlet and outlet temp specs, it's pretty weak actually as AC systems go. Automotive systems are much stronger of course, but getting ~40 degree outlet temps on a 100 degree day usually isn't a big deal. The "testing" specs on these RV units says something like a 20 degree temp drop is "normal"? F that. That's pretty weak.

My point is that you should NOT have to run the AC non-stop for 10 or 12 hours to maintain a decent inside coach temp. And if it's that hot and your (not "your" specifically, I mean everyone's in general terms) RV has that much heat loss, that means the AC's input temps are going to be way too hot to get the evaporator to freeze up even if you pulled the temp probe completely out of the core.

And yes, I have my temp probe (thermistor) hanging in the airflow in front of the evaporator, up inside the AC unit. I basically just wound it around the harness coming from the control module inside the inlet area.

For you other guys reading this, TRY IT. It's a totally reversible mod that takes about 2 minutes to do. There are tons of people on here complaining about AC performance. You've got nothing to lose trying this and it might just fix your issues.

I just put a link to this thread in the other AC thread talking about adding a vent. For those that try moving or removing the temp probe, remember that MORE airflow is better. Open ALL the outlets. Lack of airflow is what makes evaporator temps get too low.
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz View Post
Ok so I did a little testing for you... haha.

With an infrared heat gun it does show that the temps at the top of the evaporator are colder. It's not super accurate because I was shooting the thermometer at an angle since it wouldn't fit all the way inside. I didn't take the unit apart to verify which end the high and low side lines come in though. That would tell you exactly what areas of the evaporator will be colder. I've had AC evaporators freeze up, if I remember right they mostly freeze from the center and the edges are last to freeze. I've had aftermarket AC's stop all airflow and turn into a giant ice cube inside. No big deal, you just turn it off until it melts.

The edges of the core showed warmer, which makes perfect sense. Putting the probe at the absolute edges of the core could be a good idea.

I've ran mine for about 2 hours straight with no compressor cycling and it didn't freeze up. About a 90 degree day, entire coach in direct sun, inside coach temp was down to 67 degrees, (!!! It was pretty d@mn cold!) and outlet temps were in the very low 40's.

Your question about running it "all day- 10-12 hours" is my (and yours too) point in all this. If you have to run your AC non-stop all day long with no cycling to maintain a decent temp, something is wrong. It seems to me that Coleman is pretty conservative on their evaporator icing prevention strategies. I think they're cycling the compressor at temps that are way too high. Someone in this thread quoted Coleman's inlet and outlet temp specs, it's pretty weak actually as AC systems go. Automotive systems are much stronger of course, but getting ~40 degree outlet temps on a 100 degree day usually isn't a big deal. The "testing" specs on these RV units says something like a 20 degree temp drop is "normal"? F that. That's pretty weak.

My point is that you should NOT have to run the AC non-stop for 10 or 12 hours to maintain a decent inside coach temp. And if it's that hot and your (not "your" specifically, I mean everyone's in general terms) RV has that much heat loss, that means the AC's input temps are going to be way too hot to get the evaporator to freeze up even if you pulled the temp probe completely out of the core.

And yes, I have my temp probe (thermistor) hanging in the airflow in front of the evaporator, up inside the AC unit. I basically just wound it around the harness coming from the control module inside the inlet area.

For you other guys reading this, TRY IT. It's a totally reversible mod that takes about 2 minutes to do. There are tons of people on here complaining about AC performance. You've got nothing to lose trying this and it might just fix your issues.

I just put a link to this thread in the other AC thread talking about adding a vent. For those that try moving or removing the temp probe, remember that MORE airflow is better. Open ALL the outlets. Lack of airflow is what makes evaporator temps get too low.
I can confirm the airflow freezing: our old 5th wheel was setup like our Axis is: ceiling vents and the closable vents on the bottom of the A/C. If I closed all the vents on the bottom of the A/C it would freeze up--I always had to leave at least one of the bottom A/C vents partially open.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
I can confirm the airflow freezing: our old 5th wheel was setup like our Axis is: ceiling vents and the closable vents on the bottom of the A/C. If I closed all the vents on the bottom of the A/C it would freeze up--I always had to leave at least one of the bottom A/C vents partially open.
You’d expect that. If you reduce air flow across evaporator enough it will get so cold that it will freeze.

The point that was being made, I believe, is that for most owners who complain about the RV being too hot, it shouldn’t make much difference. When you have air going in at 80F and coming out at 60F because the A/C is already cooling at maximum 15,000 BTU/hr, how is moving the prove going to help? When it’s really hot inside RV, everything is already designed to call for maximum cooling capacity.
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Old 07-15-2018, 03:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
You’d expect that. If you reduce air flow across evaporator enough it will get so cold that it will freeze.

The point that was being made, I believe, is that for most owners who complain about the RV being too hot, it shouldn’t make much difference. When you have air going in at 80F and coming out at 60F because the A/C is already cooling at maximum 15,000 BTU/hr, how is moving the prove going to help? When it’s really hot inside RV, everything is already designed to call for maximum cooling capacity.
Well you don't even own an RV so I guess you don't have to worry about how efficient these roof AC's are.

Seriously, this all goes back to a basic question... Do you (the rest of you guys too) think manufacturers like Coleman, Thor or even Ford create products that are at 100% efficiency in 100% of the end users situations?


The factual answer to that question is no, they absolutely don't. There are few products made in this world that can't be improved upon in at least some tiny little way. It's actually what drives innovation, end users not being content with the operation of some product, and taking it upon themselves to modify it to work better. Many times those "mods" get evolved into actual production changes. And the world becomes a better place. lol.

If I trusted Ford to deliver my V10 engine with the best, most efficient engine calibrations, my RV would be down about 80 ft/lbs of torque right now. If I trusted that Thor made the most efficient RV, I'd be camping in a vastly inferior coach than I now am. And if I trusted Coleman to make the most efficient roof AC unit for RV's, I'd be a helluva lot sweatier while in my RV.

The simple fact is that these roof air conditioners are NOT running at their peak efficiency in any particular coach. The design has been basically unchanged for decades, and a few different models are supposed to "fit" all the different RV designs and configurations on the road. There absolutely IS room for improvement on operation of this particular product.

If you want to be a Negative Nelly, that's fine. Just don't keep squashing the hopes and dreams of the rest of us that like to mod things and enjoy the improvements and newfound knowledge that it brings.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:17 AM   #17
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gmtech

I hate to ask, but for those like me that have no idea what the evap temp probe even looks like, is there a way you can post a pic of what you did?
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dippytwo View Post
gmtech

I hate to ask, but for those like me that have no idea what the evap temp probe even looks like, is there a way you can post a pic of what you did?
I posted a picture of the probe at the begining of this thred. Very easy to move but if your is already at the bottom (Like mine was) try moving it up a couple of inches or just let it dangle like GM Tech said. Let us know your outcome.
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:59 PM   #19
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GM tech - Which Thor product to you own (Not listed in your profile)?

To touch on this "Running all day to keep cool" and you said something is wrong with that? I don’t think so. My RV was in the SUN for about 10 hours or so on the 4th of July. We were at the lake for 8 hours (well with about 2 hours of driving as well) and it was on my driveway for 2 + hours with the AC running the entire time to cool down and maintain temp. It doesn’t take long now to suck out the heat (Not like before). I had the Thermostat set at 70 deg and interior temp ranged between 72 - 74 deg depending on where you were.

My RV WAS IN THE FULL SUN THE ENTIRE DAY. If I had shade im sure the AC unit would have gone off. I had NO reflective bubbles in ANY of my windows. I was testing to see how cool I could get this coach AND to make sure nothing froze up. If I put bubbles in the FRONT windshield Im sure that would have helped maintain temp.

I had NO curtains drawn in the cockpit at all (Only the dinette shade and bedroom shades where pulled down). This was part of my test - see how comfortable I can make it WITHOUT the hassle of bubbles AND to be able to look out at the lake and enjoy the sunshine and my surrounding.

Perhaps you have double pane windows or a better coach that is more insulated? Sounds like your goes off after a few hours? What is your thermostat set at? Plus your output temp is around 5 deg cooler than mine (40 vs 45) so that might have made a difference.

Before I did my mods I was at 82 deg (at best – no joke) inside, in full sun with all of the windows blocked off with Reflective bubbles and could not see out any windows (And my AC unit running the entire time). So Im very happy with my results.
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:07 PM   #20
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Here is a few pics of the insulation on the roof and temp gauge inside vent.
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