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Old 05-30-2019, 06:28 AM   #1
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THOR #1658
Exclamation Electrical issue

Well I lost all power in the entertainment center area and three plugs in the kitchen. Traced it down to a junction box under the kitchen slide. Luckily the fire did not spread out of the junction box. Got it cleaned up, damaged wires cleared away and re-wired. Back up and running now.


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Old 05-30-2019, 09:16 AM   #2
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Complete BS the kitchen is even part of the entertainment area. Had a fellow DRV owner help me make all my outlets in the kitchen on a 20A I had already added next to the fridge.

Thanks Tony!!!

Another complete BS is that even happened. Happy for you it did not get worse.

Where is that box located?
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cummins12V98 View Post
Complete BS the kitchen is even part of the entertainment area. Had a fellow DRV owner help me make all my outlets in the kitchen on a 20A I had already added next to the fridge.

Thanks Tony!!!

Another complete BS is that even happened. Happy for you it did not get worse.

Where is that box located?
It was not from a draw, but loose connections. When I was pulling the wires out, one of the neutral wires just came right out of the connector.
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Old 05-30-2019, 10:50 AM   #4
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I cringe every time I see one of these posts... and there have been plenty of them!

I must be one of the lucky ones. So far it looks like Thor did not use traditional wire nuts for any of the 110 volt wiring in my 2018 Outlaw 29H. All of the junction boxes I have opened up have had Lever-Nuts for wire splices and not wire nuts.

These things are great!!! Clean installation, easy to use and very secure. They are also great if you are making and changes or modifications to the wiring.

I just ordered a bunch off of Amazon to use around the house and garage. I will never use a regular wire nut again! I am also going to use them for installing my solar system once I get around to installing it.

If I was anyone on here, I would order a bunch of these and replace every wire nut or crimp connector in my rig with them.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:23 AM   #5
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Personally would NEVER use the connectors you showed. You are only touching the wire by a thin pc of metal. No different than the stab and jab electrical receptacles.

The pictured failure is not a wire nut it's a crimp on connector. IMHO fine for low volt but NOT high voltage.

Twist on wire connector is IMHO the best connection.
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Old 05-30-2019, 12:10 PM   #6
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I see nothing wrong with using "lever-nuts", as long as they are rated for the current in the cable - it's the current that causes overheating in bad connections, not the voltage. However, I'd be concerned about their ability to maintain a secure connection under repeated vibration, i.e. in a moving trailer. I presume that they're designed for residential applications. I prefer good quality wire nuts, with the conductors securely twisted together.
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cummins12V98 View Post
Personally would NEVER use the connectors you showed. You are only touching the wire by a thin pc of metal. No different than the stab and jab electrical receptacles.

The pictured failure is not a wire nut it's a crimp on connector. IMHO fine for low volt but NOT high voltage.

Twist on wire connector is IMHO the best connection.
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Originally Posted by Big Willy View Post
I see nothing wrong with using "lever-nuts", as long as they are rated for the current in the cable - it's the current that causes overheating in bad connections, not the voltage. However, I'd be concerned about their ability to maintain a secure connection under repeated vibration, i.e. in a moving trailer. I presume that they're designed for residential applications. I prefer good quality wire nuts, with the conductors securely twisted together.

They are far more secure and reliable than standard wire nuts!!!!

You might want to get your facts straight before bashing something about which you have not been educated or do not have first hand experience.

Here are the facts:

- They are rated for wires from 24 to 12 AWG
- They are rated for AC and DC applications
- They are UL approved
- Voltage Rating of 450V
- Impulse Voltage of 4kV
- Current Rating of 32A
- Max Continuous Operating Temp of 221 Deg F
- They lock the wire more tightly and securely when installed correctly (the appropriate amount of insulation has been stripped and the metal wire is the full length of the locking mechanism)

As a test, I installed a 14 AWG ground wire into one side and locked the lever-nut. I pulled so hard that the wire started cutting into my hand before I could finally pull it from the locking mechanism.

I also moved the wire in every direction over and over..... at least 50 times.... and the wire began fatiguing where it was bending and never broke free of the lever-nut.

Lever-nuts were used throughout my rig from the factory and every wire connection that I checked was solid and safe.... unlike the dozens of videos people have posted showing burnt wiring from loose connections using standard wire nuts.

Feel free to use regular wire nuts if you think they are better than lever-nuts but the facts speak for themselves.
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:28 PM   #8
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Thanks for the facts, and your experience, but no need for the harshness in the intro.
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:43 PM   #9
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"You might want to get your facts straight before bashing something about which you have not been educated or do not have first hand experience."

What did I say that was not correct? I gave my OPINION and YES there is a pc of metal pressing against the wire. Electricity travels around the wire. By twisting the wires together and using a Twist On Wire Connector/wirenut the surfaces are in more contact with each other.

They are legal per code that's correct but as I said IMHO not as good of a connector.

I have plenty of experience, I was a Construction Superintendent for many years and the Electricians that took pride in their work and did things the best way possible did NOT use those and i told more than one I would not allow them.

You think using the receptacles that you simply push the wire into are fine or do you think it's best to attach the wires with a compression plate and screw?

Another bonus is the good ol twist connector is far less expensive. Labor should not be tied to our discussion since we are doing these projects our selves.

Use what ya want!

OH and I was NOT "BASHING"

OH did you know you were posting in the DRV section of the Thor forum.
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Old 05-30-2019, 04:49 PM   #10
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The important thing here is that the fire didn't spread, and it was a relatively easy thing to fix...
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Old 05-30-2019, 06:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
The important thing here is that the fire didn't spread, and it was a relatively easy thing to fix...
I agree Bob.
Plus not all of the wires were solid core wires. One wire at each connection was a stranded core wire. So I do not think those would work. Plus those have a lever lock. I would worry about the level springing lose. They do make them with out the lever lock. You just push the wire in. But because there is a stranded core wire in the connection, I did not feel it was safe to use these types of connectors.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-In...IaAvJ2EALw_wcB

They are not that expensive either. But cost was not a factor as Safety was my first concern.
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Cummins12V98 View Post

OH did you know you were posting in the DRV section of the Thor forum.
Somebody posted about an electrical issue so I was responding to it in order to try and help. Electrical is electrical regardless of what it is used for or what kind of rig it is in.

Also, dissect a Lever-Nut and see how stout the metal is inside of it to be a conductor. Would I use it for a 50A circuit? No..... but it is rated to 32A and UL certified and that covers just about any application in a rig using 15 - 30A circuits.

One last point..... the twisted wire only works well when the wire is actually twisted properly and tight enough... especially for heavier gauge wires. More often than not, all of the issues like this reported on the site are because they are in a rush manufacturing units and the wires are not twisted together tightly. Then the crappy standard wire nuts loosen and you eventually have a short circuit or there is high current creating heat from the bad connection and you get what the OP posted.

I doubt my rig was the only one using Lever-Nuts and I have never seen anyone post a shorted circuit / melted wire issue showing Lever-Nuts being used.... the issues people post about with melted wiring have all been standard wire nuts or crimp splices.
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:27 PM   #13
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The WAGO specs show them to be suitable for stranded wire, as well their tech documents give the details of the vibration and pull tests on them. They don't appear to be a regular push in connector. I going to pick one up some time and have good look at it.
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:32 PM   #14
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Thanks for the facts, and your experience, but no need for the harshness in the intro.
Apologies..... it was more geared to Cummins saying he would NEVER use them and twisted wires are better.

There are more than one ways to skin a cat.... and some ways can be better and more efficient and even safer than others.

As I said... I have not seen a single thread posted about a Lever-Nut installation from Thor causing melted wires and short circuits as the wire nuts and crimp splices have.... I actually think someone from Thor doing the wiring on my rig got it right. They get bashed a lot for shoddy workmanship but the electrical on my rig has been very solid.
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
Apologies..... it was more geared to Cummins saying he would NEVER use them and twisted wires are better.

There are more than one ways to skin a cat.... and some ways can be better and more efficient and even safer than others.

As I said... I have not seen a single thread posted about a Lever-Nut installation from Thor causing melted wires and short circuits as the wire nuts and crimp splices have.... I actually think someone from Thor doing the wiring got it right on my rig.
This is the first wiring issue in over 4 years of full timing.
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Old 05-30-2019, 08:34 PM   #16
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Just so it’s clear.....the photo shown is not a standard “twist wire nut”......it is a “crimp butt connector”......big difference.
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Old 05-30-2019, 08:48 PM   #17
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They are closed end connectors and to my knowledge are used with stranded wire and not solid wire. I’m going to look at all of the AC connections in my coach now.
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:22 PM   #18
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Jimbo=you would be wrong there. Wago, lever nut and crimp splices are ALL certified for both stranded and solid wire. Separately or in combination.

Cummins=You may have been a good carpenter, I don't know. What I do know after 40+ years in construction starting as an apprentice and ending as an Electrical Engineer is that the site manager has NOTHING to say about what products are used by any trade. The engineers and architects who design the projects do . And the construction manager CAN NOT over ride their decisions.
Now if you are doing little office remodel projects that do not require engineering or architect stamps-different story. But my crews would listen to me, not you. And we used Wago brand exclusively for 15+ years on commercial and industrial jobs. With never a failure. Even used them on office and warehouse projects for the utility companies with their approval. Also on a nuclear power plant.
What you don't find on any commercial or industrial jobs are crimp splices. In my area even the residential guys don't use them. May very in different parts of the country. I can however see why they use them in an RV> It's because of the vibration. Twist on wire nuts will come loose after a while. Wago's and crimps USUALLY will not. If you use wire nuts in an RV I would strongly suggest you supplement them with black tape to help prevent them from loosening.
Nothing personal, just some real life experience.

Bill
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Old 05-31-2019, 12:01 AM   #19
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All our jobs where they were wanting to use them they were Design Build. I did have control over what materials went into the job. Like I said the guys that had a higher level of quality did not use them it was the newbies that tried to do things as cheap as possible for example many tried to leave the metal boxes without a support that was nipped real fast.

So Bill you think the stab n jab receptacles are ok to use? I sure don't as I replaced every single one on a new house we bought as many simply did not keep a good connection.

Lots of guys tried to use non spec grade receptacles on my jobs and that was fixed in a heart beat.

NOT saying the Wabo won't do the job but the twist connectors are superior IMHO. You just mentioned to tape them.
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Old 05-31-2019, 12:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porkchop View Post
Jimbo=you would be wrong there. Wago, lever nut and crimp splices are ALL certified for both stranded and solid wire. Separately or in combination.

Cummins=You may have been a good carpenter, I don't know. What I do know after 40+ years in construction starting as an apprentice and ending as an Electrical Engineer is that the site manager has NOTHING to say about what products are used by any trade. The engineers and architects who design the projects do . And the construction manager CAN NOT over ride their decisions.
Now if you are doing little office remodel projects that do not require engineering or architect stamps-different story. But my crews would listen to me, not you. And we used Wago brand exclusively for 15+ years on commercial and industrial jobs. With never a failure. Even used them on office and warehouse projects for the utility companies with their approval. Also on a nuclear power plant.
What you don't find on any commercial or industrial jobs are crimp splices. In my area even the residential guys don't use them. May very in different parts of the country. I can however see why they use them in an RV> It's because of the vibration. Twist on wire nuts will come loose after a while. Wago's and crimps USUALLY will not. If you use wire nuts in an RV I would strongly suggest you supplement them with black tape to help prevent them from loosening.
Nothing personal, just some real life experience.

Bill


I apologize Bill. My comment was on the OP’s original picture.
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