From Class B to Vegas 24.1

[timp410]

Originally Posted by Chance

I think the difference is just under 16 inches; not as much as it may seem. The extended 170 wheelbase model is 24'-2" while the regular 170 wheelbase model is 22'-10". Neither is going to fit in a regular parking spot unless you can hang the rear over the curve (I often do that with my extended Ford and it's just over 20 feet long).

Anyway, I see the appeal in going as long as possible. The extended Sprinter adds over 40 cubic feet of volume, taking it to 530 cubic feet. That's essentially twice the size of older vans like the Chevy used by Roadtrek for shorter models like the 170.

The rear extension also adds nearly 8 square feet of floor space, enough to incrementally provide for a separate shower in lieu of the typical wet bath in Class Bs (although that's not something normally added to Class Bs no matter how large they get).

By the way, have you also looked at ProMaster Class Bs? The longest is only 21 feet but have nearly as much room (in volume) due to their width. At floor level they are 4 inches wider than M-B Sprinters or Ford Transits, with the difference becoming greater as you move up towards ceiling. To me it makes the van feel much more spacious when I'm standing. If they could only tow a decent size trailer they would be a great fit for us.

We were all set to purchase either the Pleasure way Lexor TS until we drove one. The seats were very uncomfortable and the cockpit seem cramped. My wife and I have sort of long legs so it just didn't work for us. I was very disappointed because it was the perfect size. It was also a gas engine which should have cut down on maintenance.

[timp410]

If we were retired, the Axis would make more sense for us to keep. We currently have too many vehicles, six of them. I was thinking that a class b could be a multipurpose vehicle and I could eliminate two of them.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Interesting, Roadtrek is now owned by a European company:
Roadtrek now part of largest motorhome manufacturer in the worldRoadtreking : The RV Lifestyle Blog

Chance something you may be interested in: (From the linked article above)

Thanks Jamie. I had seen reports that Roadtrek would be building the Grand Canyon Class B for Hymer, but that Hymer purchased the entire Roadtrek company is news to me. Admittedly good news since I've been waiting for a Euro presence in North America for a long time.

From the article it sounds like Hymer will be expanding manufacturing in Canada to include a third plant which will include the "larger motorhome". I hope that by larger motorhome they mean a 22 to 26 foot Class A like those popular in Europe. I also hope they don't Americanize it too much since we already have those to choose from.

Originally Posted by Article

Hammill says production of the first Hymer motorhomes will be at the exiting two Kitchener factories, which will continue to build nine different models on three Chassis – the Sprinter, the ProMaster and the Chevrolet Express. A third factory, also in Kitchener, will also go into production for other models, like the larger motorhome and the towables.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by timp410

If we were retired, the Axis would make more sense for us to keep. We currently have too many vehicles, six of them. I was thinking that a class b could be a multipurpose vehicle and I could eliminate two of them.

Yeah, it can make a difference. We eliminated one vehicle when we downsized from Class C, plus saved the cost and hassle of having to park the RV off sight and having to check on it, keeping battery charged, etc.

[timp410]

Originally Posted by east2west

Something to keep in mind with the Roadtrek, the repairs are costly. Thankfully we were talked into getting the extended warranty and was able to talk them down on the cost of that warranty. We got a 5 year 75,000 mile warranty because I also drove it to work. We felt the Roadtrek was worth the cost because it has everything you could want when traveling and is very well built. The amount of storage is unbelievable, especially when you have to empty it into all those boxes when you buy your new motorhome : ) Overall... we loved it and will miss it.

The cost of ownership has been one of my biggest concerns. It also played apart in our initial decision to go with the Axis. I figured the maintenance cost would be lower than a Sprinter.

[f troop 8th cav]

We had a Pleasure Way for six years and loved it. The problem was they had horrible service. My dealer dropped them because he had a very hard time getting paid for warranty work. My best friend had a Roadtrek but just traded it for a class C Winnebago L-23 Trend. I was told by my dealer that the Class B RV's were so expensive to repair because there is no physical room to work on them. So far my Vegas is great but gas mileage is not. I seem to get 19 MPG no matter how fast or slow I go. I sure hope low gas prices last but I doubt it. Thor had slow warranty service this past year but that was mostly due to the fact they moved their facility and parts were all over the place. The smaller Troy Vegas and Apex are a breeze to drive since they are narrower than the full size Class A. My wife has no problem driving it. She says it is as easy as the old Class B.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by f troop 8th cav

I seem to get 19 MPG no matter how fast or slow I go.

WOW! 19mpg is awesome. LOL Yeah I know you probably had a typo there. Axis/Vegas units typically get like 9 mpg.

This is very typical for the monster V-10 in the campers (In both my F-250 with F-350 I'd get around 11 mpg no matter how I drove them and about 8 mpg with the 5er behind it).

Currently I'm getting about 8.5 mpg on our Axis regardless of how I drive and if I'm towing a car or not...just the nature of the beast.

[f troop 8th cav]

Yup, typo. I am getting 9 MPH. I sure wish it was 19.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

...cut....

Currently I'm getting about 8.5 mpg on our Axis regardless of how I drive and if I'm towing a car or not...just the nature of the beast.

That's a major drawback compared to Class Bs, even the gasoline-powered Class Bs.

Owners of Winnebago Travato report up to 17 MPG on gasoline when driving conservatively, which is essentially double what you are getting. Obviously your Axis is a lot bigger, but it's not twice as heavy or twice as large in cross section to wind drag. And the V10 engine, while large and powerful, isn't twice as large or powerful. Something seems less than optimum.

I see no reason why these Axis or Vegas shouldn't be getting between 10 and 12 MPG on the highway when driven conservatively (assuming no generator use). The only explanations that make sense is that their Cd is very high, or else the total gearing isn't high enough for such a small and light RV (the more probable reason in my opinion).

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

I see no reason why these Axis or Vegas shouldn't be getting between 10 and 12 MPG on the highway when driven conservatively (assuming no generator use).

10 - 12 mpg would equal what the pickups get with the V-10. I think that is a bit unrealistic given that the Axis/Vegas units are larger, much less aerodynamic, and weigh in at least 4,000 lbs heavier than a comparable F-250, or F-350.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

10 - 12 mpg would equal what the pickups get with the V-10. I think that is a bit unrealistic given that the Axis/Vegas units are larger, much less aerodynamic, and weigh in at least 4,000 lbs heavier than a comparable F-250, or F-350.

My E-350 van with V10 typically gets between 14 and 16 MPG on the highway -- with about 15 MPG being common at around 70 MPH (which I would not consider conservative driving if in a Class A motorhome). A couple of times I got 16 MPG by holding speed around 60+ MPH.

You mention getting around 8 MPG with your truck pulling a 5th wheel trailer, right? I'd guess that your combined weight of truck and trailer was much higher than that of your Axis, and that the height and width of your trailer was larger too. Yet you got 8 MPG and now get 8.5 MPG? That's not much of a difference.

These Axis are geared too low for optimum fuel economy. Compare to much larger F53 motorhomes, the total gearing is about the same. That creates waste. Granted they will drive slightly better with lower gearing, but fuel economy suffers.

[JamieGeek]

F350+5th wheel was 15,000lbs more or less.
Axis was 11,500 lbs when I weighed it about a month after purchase (full people+full fresh+full propane).

I never got that high of a mpg on any of my V-10 powered pickups. My best tank was 13 mpg. Note that my F-350 was a 3-valve V10 (Ford never put the 3-valve V-10 in any of the vans).

[bevedfelker]

Jamie -- I'm consistently getting 10 mpg. Drive at about 70 on the Interstates. Most of that is pretty flat terrain; albeit, during the summer on the long trip we took to MD, DE, VA, and PA we did hit hills in PA. Still the average mpg for the entire trip was still 10.1 mpg.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by bevedfelker

Jamie -- I'm consistently getting 10 mpg. Drive at about 70 on the Interstates. Most of that is pretty flat terrain; albeit, during the summer on the long trip we took to MD, DE, VA, and PA we did hit hills in PA. Still the average mpg for the entire trip was still 10.1 mpg.

Did you run the genny?

[timp410]

Originally Posted by f troop 8th cav

We had a Pleasure Way for six years and loved it. The problem was they had horrible service. My dealer dropped them because he had a very hard time getting paid for warranty work. My best friend had a Roadtrek but just traded it for a class C Winnebago L-23 Trend. I was told by my dealer that the Class B RV's were so expensive to repair because there is no physical room to work on them. So far my Vegas is great but gas mileage is not. I seem to get 19 MPG no matter how fast or slow I go. I sure hope low gas prices last but I doubt it. Thor had slow warranty service this past year but that was mostly due to the fact they moved their facility and parts were all over the place. The smaller Troy Vegas and Apex are a breeze to drive since they are narrower than the full size Class A. My wife has no problem driving it. She says it is as easy as the old Class B.

This forum has given me some great information. The more I read, the more I am questioning my decision. I'm just trying to do what make sense for us but I also do not want to make another costly mistake. I really like the idea of traveling in a class b because it's nice to have all the convenience they offer while traveling even if your not camping.

[bevedfelker]

Jamie - never run the Genny while driving.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by bevedfelker

Jamie - never run the Genny while driving.

Ah until recently I always run the genny while driving (Now that I have more 12V powered USB jacks I don't think I'll be running it as much).

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

F350+5th wheel was 15,000lbs more or less.
Axis was 11,500 lbs when I weighed it about a month after purchase (full people+full fresh+full propane).

I never got that high of a mpg on any of my V-10 powered pickups. My best tank was 13 mpg. Note that my F-350 was a 3-valve V10 (Ford never put the 3-valve V-10 in any of the vans).

Thanks Jamie, it's kind of what I expected. If anything both of your rigs are lighter than I expected. Your Axis is actually closer to a 9,350-pound GVWR Travato Class B in weight than it is to many large Class As that also use 6.8-liter engines.

To my previous question/point that Axis could/should do better in fuel economy, if compared by weight alone (and I know it's more involved than that) your 15,000-pound trailer combo getting 8 MPG would suggest around 10.5 for the Axis, not 8.5 MPG.

Another way to look at it is that 9,000-pound Travato vans are not only powered by much smaller 3.6-liter V6 engines, but are geared taller than Axis on top of that. That helps a lot towards achieving reported 17 MPG. By comparison Axis engines are oversized in displacement.

I took another look at Ford F53 chassis specs, and the ones rated at 16,000- and 18,000-pound GVWR have 4.30 final gearing, but because of taller tires it's the equivalent of 3.8 if using Axis-size tires. And the much lighter Axis runs 4.10 gearing. To me that shows that Axis-size motorhomes are not optimized to improve fuel economy. They could be a "little" closer to Class Bs. I'm not suggesting MPGs close to 17, but certainly better than 8 to 10.

Anyway, it's my way of saying manufacturers don't really care about fuel economy very much. Since it's not highly regulated they take the path of least resistance. And that's unfortunate because an Axis splits the difference between larger Class As and smaller Class Bs, yet fuel consumption is a lot closer to that of larger motorhomes.

[sky_blue]

Originally Posted by bevedfelker

Jamie - never run the Genny while driving.

Ed, Why do you say this? I normally do not run the Genny while driving. But sometimes in really hot weather, I will run it to be able to use the air conditioning.

I am considering buying an electric car for towing. If I do that I will run the Genny to charge up the towed vehicle while driving.

[JamieGeek]

Another data point, considering your statement here:

Originally Posted by Chance

To my previous question/point that Axis could/should do better in fuel economy, if compared by weight alone (and I know it's more involved than that) your 15,000-pound trailer combo getting 8 MPG would suggest around 10.5 for the Axis, not 8.5 MPG.

Before our 5er we had a 27ft travel trailer that weighed about 2,000lbs less than the 5er. The F-250 actually got 1 mpg better mileage pulling the 5er than it did the TT. (The F-250 was a 1999 V-10 with 2-valves, the constricted factory exhaust, and a 3.73 rear, the F-350 was a 2008 V-10 with 3-valves, a far less restrictive factory exhaust, and a 4.10 rear.)
In actuality I think the F-350 + 5er was a pretty aerodynamic combo:

(especially when compared to our previous F-250 + TT and the Axis)

Thus my observational data would suggest that, at some point, aerodynamics affects mpg more than weight (I'd guess that weight matters more during acceleration and deceleration events and wind resistance is a greater affect during steady state highway driving).

Compare the above image with:

The Axis is just a brick--I'd guess all the air resistance from the car back there doesn't affect much as its in the vacuum (so to speak) behind the coach since our mpg in the Axis doesn't really change noticeably when the car is back there or not.

Another thing to consider as well: The F-53 chassis is sold with the 3-valve V-10 and the E-Series chassis (Axis/Vegas) is sold with the 2-valve V-10 (362 vs 305 hp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_M...gine#2-valve_3).

(Not really trying to argue any point, just adding more information to the discussion.)