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Old 08-20-2018, 11:14 PM   #1
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Quontum PD31
State: New Hampshire
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THOR #10584
AGS with Residential refrigerator

Hello. Can anyone advise me on this AGS issue? I've got a 2016 PD31 Quantum with a residential refrigerator. In two years we have never been in a situation where we relied on the AGS but will be soon. I have just upgraded to 4 new 12V marine batteries and tested the system. Inverter registered 13.3V when I disconeccted from shore power. With only the fridge running, batteries held above 12V (AGS set point) for over 20 hours. At 12.2V the fridge made a different sound (maybe the defrost cycle?) and voltage dropped to 11.5. If it stayed there for 2 minutes the AGS should activate, but after about 30 seconds the fridge made a click sound (defrost turning off due to low voltage?) and the voltage jumped back up to 12.2. The process repeated a few times until I became concerned about low voltage potentially harming the refrigerator and plugged back in to shore power. Any thoughts? I plan on being absent from the RV for about 36 hours and would like to feel confident the the refrigerator will remain cold. Thanks!
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:54 PM   #2
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Miramar 34.4
State: Iowa
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THOR #4488
I don't know about the clicking sounds... Maybe someone else can advise to that. However, the AGS will start the generator at whatever you have it set at. Also, you should here an annoying periodic beep if the battery runs to low for the refrigerator.

My AGS controller is on the ceiling in one of my basement compartments. You have to set the time off day, hours you do not want the generator to run and the battery level when you want it to kick in.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:06 AM   #3
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THOR #10584
Resolution

In case anyone else has this issue, the end result of my research is that once the battery output gets down in the 12.3 range the XM1800 is only putting out AC voltage in the neighborhood of 95-100 volts. The residential refrigerator can't start on that and it cuts out on low voltage long before the 2 minute delay built into the AGS. Obvious solution is to manually run the generator but in my case I had been planning on being away from the coach for a couple of days. Ultimate solution that'll result in the AGS and inverter actually functioning in tandem in a residential refrigerator scenario is to replace the inverter with a "true sine" inverter such as the Freedom X which, I'm told, will provide 120v regardless of DC input.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:46 AM   #4
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THOR #4735
From my Magnum ME2012 experience, the AGS is deigned to crank the generator after the VOLTS setting has been breached for a continuous 2 minutes. I have used settings between 11.8 and 12.0, with the most recent as 12.0 with 30 min RUN TIME, which works well for us, our fridge, fans, computers, TVs, receivers, etc.

I've never experienced a 'low voltage' situation from my inverter, though I know that there are settings within the Inverter that can 'cut out' the inverter if voltage output falls below a certain ratio. The fridge's compressor cutting on can make a sound, and initially make the Volts reading drop lower, but when it cuts back off, the Volts reading will typically rise back to a more 'actual' battery level reading. If your fridge is running for 5 or 10 minutes, it sounds pretty typical to me. It doesn't run 24/7.

Also, as another note, the LBCO setting is designed for LOW BATTERY CUT OUT of the Inverter if the battery levels fall below a setting - I use 11.5. This cuts off the inverter, to preserve the batteries, and to make sure that the levels are high enough if you need to crank the generator manually, even if you don't have the AGS enabled. The inverter will come back on after the battery levels are back above the setting.


The AGS is a magnificent off-grid tool for RVing - allowing you to manage the batteries, the generator, and electrical usage without much 'manual' involvement, and without having to always be on top of the battery levels constantly yourself.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:31 PM   #5
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THOR #4488
I agree with Turnerfam...I use the AGS successfully when dry camping for several days. It's nice to be able to be away and know everything is working as designed. I have mine set to kick on at 12.0 and run for 4 hours which fully charges all the batteries.

I did find if you forget and leave the AGS on when putting your rig in "store" mode, it will start the generator and NOT charge the batteries. I did that last fall...ooops. Luckily I received a phone call and corrected the situation before draining the batteries.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:22 PM   #6
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THOR #10584
Yes the AGS will start the generator if the voltage drops to or below the setting, which I have set at 12v. But the voltage has to start at or below 12 volts for two continuous minutes. The problem is that when the voltage gets down to 12.3 the refrigerator will not run. When it tries to start the voltage drops further, say to 11.8. If it continued to run for two minutes the generator would kick on and all would be well. But after about 30 seconds the refrigerator shuts down and the voltage jumps back up to 12.3. According to a refrigerator technician, the fridge has a safety cut out for low voltage. Several conversations with Xantrex concur that the XM1800 puts out a lower voltage as the input voltage drops and that 11.8 volts input probably yields AC output voltage insufficient to start the refrigerator. They stated that only a "true sine wave" inverter, such as their Freedom X model, would provide 120 volts consistently, regardless of how low the input voltage was. I called Thor and was finally able to speak with someone who knew what I was talking about and he said that with a residential refrigerator I should plan to run the generator manually and not rely on the AGS. He said that the "modified" sine wave XM1800 was the standard at the time my 2016 Quantum was built and that now they are beginning to use the Freedom X. Not a very satisfactory answer but at least I understand why the system of AGS and inverter won't work together in this scenario as I expected they would. I would be interested to know if there is someone out there with a residential refrigerator (running off an XM1800 inverter) that consistently runs long enough to activate the AGS. In my case the refrigerator is the only thing running off the inverter.
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:01 PM   #7
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THOR #4488
Now I understand my confusion, sorry. I have the 2000 watt inverter in my Miramar. I didn't realize it was different in your model. It works perfectly in mine.
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:04 PM   #8
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THOR #10584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramar Owner View Post
Now I understand my confusion, sorry. I have the 2000 watt inverter in my Miramar. I didn't realize it was different in your model. It works perfectly in mine.


Whatís make and model is your inverter?
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:28 PM   #9
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THOR #4735
I'm not sure I buy into the theory that just because the 'Volts' level for the batteries drops to 11.8 that it somehow effects the Inverter's 120v output. The Inverter is receiving 12v output from the batteries, period.

And, the assumption that only 'pure' sine wave Inverters are somehow capable of handling a residential fridge is bunk. Our modified sine wave Magnum ME-2012 has worked flawlessly for over 4 years, powering our Whirlpool 120v fridge with no issues, and everything else, whether the batteries are fully charged, or are getting close to the LBCO setting of 11.0 to 11.5. The inverter output is the same, only the battery levels change.

To me, this sounds more like a problem with the FRIDGE itself, not the power supply. I would say a weak capacitor, or a problem with the compressor itself.

Anyone telling you that somehow you 'can't' or 'shouldn't' use the AGS to crank the generator is simply another 'tell' that they don't know that much about it's usage and how these systems work. The AGS would have nothing at all to do with whether your fridge is 'working' properly, or not, and only operates to crank the generator, nothing more.

try a test for the AGS: move it's Volts setting to 12.5, change the LBCO setting to 11.0, or even lower. Turn the fridge ON, or if already on, turn it's temp setting to it's Lowest setting(cause it to immediately kick on the compressor)... now wait.

The AGS should crank the generator after the Volts fall below 12.5, though it may take it a minute or two under that number before it happens, depending on your type of inverter. IF the Volts continue to fall before the AGS kicks on the generator, they should not fall far enough, or long enough, that the LBCO setting kicks off the inverter, before the generator starts.


I'm giving suggestions from my experience with my Magnum Inverter and ME-RC remote display... yours may be different with your system.
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:50 PM   #10
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THOR #10584
I would think that if the batteries were down to 11.8 then that would be what the inverter was receiving. At any rate, the information I got concerning low AC output from the inverter came from the inverter manufacturer. I have an 1800 watt Xantrex. Yours is a 2000 watt Magnum. Maybe its the brand difference or maybe it's the wattage difference that allows yours to work the way one would expect it to. Or maybe you're right about the refrigerator. Mine is a Whirpool like yours and it'll work fine for about 20 hours on my battery bank and only has issues when the batteries are nearly down to 12 volts. Also, apparantly you can't see the output voltage on a modified sine wave inverter with a standard volt meter. I'll try and borrow the correct type from an electrician and see what that tells me. Just another source of frustration. At least I know things do work properly on a 2000 watt inverter.
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:00 PM   #11
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THOR #10584
Also the highest setting on the the AGS is 12 so unfortunately moving it to 12.5 is not an option. The LBCO is 11. It is not adjustable but never gets reached any way as the fridge cuts out on low voltage (that's what I'm being told) long before the voltage drops that low.
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:57 PM   #12
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THOR #4735
Lightbulb

the inverter receives 12v power from the batteries, because they are 12v output, and the inverter changes that to 120v output - the Volts 'reading' that we are referring to is showing the amount of the battery bank 'storage' capacity left.

On one of our first major trips, overnighting during freezing temps, I didn't know too much about the Volts reading. Everything worked fine until the Inverter eventually cut out due to the LBCO setting, which the factory had defaulted to 10.0.
Well, as you might expect, this was then not enough battery capacity left to start the generator!
I learned eventually that 11.5 is just a good number - not too low, not too high, at least for our needs.

13.5 might show when the Charger is fully charging the battery bank, 12.8 might show when not, and very little, if any load is on, 12.2 while you have items in use, 11.8 while items have been use for some time, 11.5 might be a little 'low', as it represents 50% or less of the battery bank's storage capacity.

all that said, I think you'll need to do some more research on the fridge, itself, as I don't think you have any issue with your Inverter, or it's output, especially if everything else works fine ...such as microwave, and/or other devices plugged into outlets that are served by the inverter.
or, if the fridge's outlet is the only one served by the inverter, plug something else into it, or the rear/front of the inverter, if it has it's own outlet, and see how they work.

none of this may be the ultimate solution, but at least give it a try
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:01 AM   #13
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Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
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THOR #13058
My first post so I hope I get this right. I am looking to purchase a new Thor ACE 29.3 unit. Normally the model only comes with one 1000 Watt inverter for outside refrigerator and TVs and gas/electric refrigerator. But for this unit, Thor put in a residential refrigerator, a 2nd power inverter, and a AGS. While I kind of like that, I am concerned because both inverters have to be on the same bank of standard two 12 volt Worldwide batteries. My fear is that the way it is setup; I would basically be cutting the available amp hours in half. Since I have not bought and many options still exist, would you think I should draw a hard line to have Thor / RV Dealer double the battery capacity with two 6 Volts or similar, move on to a unit that has gas / electric refrigerator, or just accept it as it? I have rented RVs in the past and do expect to dry camp and boondock. But I do tend to think that if I can get 24 hours off the batteries; I probably will never have an issue with AGS having to kick on short the unexpected.

I worry mostly about quiet hours because most of the places I go do not like loud generators at night. This generator is Onan 5500. I have never heard it to know how loud it would be but assume, I shouldn't run at night regardless.
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Old 05-19-2019, 03:48 PM   #14
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THOR #15361
Residential Refrigerator not working on Inverter

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBrown View Post
...I have an 1800 watt Xantrex. Yours is a 2000 watt Magnum. Maybe its the brand difference or maybe it's the wattage difference that allows yours to work the way one would expect it to. Or maybe you're right about the refrigerator. Mine is a Whirpool like yours and it'll work fine for about 20 hours on my battery bank and only has issues when the batteries are nearly down to 12 volts. ...
Hi, first post here. LBrown, please tell me you solved this issue; help! We have a 2016 35SB Super C with the same fridge, same inverter, and same problem. We have 4 brand new deep-cycle 6V batteries installed, so plenty of power. Our problem actually seems worse since the fridge is running fine for a few minutes on inverter power, then the voltage drops from 12.5V to 11.9V, fridge cuts off, and inverter fan goes on. A few minutes later, fridge turns on again for a short time, then the shut down cycle repeats and repeats. Fridge works flawlessly on shore power. Dealer is stumped, so here I am on the forums with the real experts!! I'm thinking it's the 1800W modified sine wave inverter. Need more peak power to fire up the condensor motor. But please let me know if anything worked for you. Any info is appreciated.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:15 PM   #15
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THOR #15410
We found out that not only is the fridge on the inverter, but backup camera, etc are also. When boondocking make sure everything is off except fridge
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Old 06-15-2019, 01:05 PM   #16
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Model: Hurricane 31D
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THOR #5638
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
My first post so I hope I get this right. I am looking to purchase a new Thor ACE 29.3 unit.,,,
It would be best to start a new thread rather than asking a seperate but somewhat related question.
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Old 06-15-2019, 11:18 PM   #17
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THOR #13982
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Originally Posted by mikeage View Post
Hi, first post here. LBrown, please tell me you solved this issue; help! We have a 2016 35SB Super C with the same fridge, same inverter, and same problem. We have 4 brand new deep-cycle 6V batteries installed, so plenty of power. Our problem actually seems worse since the fridge is running fine for a few minutes on inverter power, then the voltage drops from 12.5V to 11.9V, fridge cuts off, and inverter fan goes on. A few minutes later, fridge turns on again for a short time, then the shut down cycle repeats and repeats. Fridge works flawlessly on shore power. Dealer is stumped, so here I am on the forums with the real experts!! I'm thinking it's the 1800W modified sine wave inverter. Need more peak power to fire up the condensor motor. But please let me know if anything worked for you. Any info is appreciated.
We have the 2016 35sk, and had experienced the same problems with modified sign wave inverter. So last year I upgraded to 2000w combo inverter/charger full sign wave. So far working great for us. Also be sure to cut off your ice maker, that draws power when it goes into the heat cycle, when harvesting the ice cubes.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:51 PM   #18
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THOR #15361
Quote:
Originally Posted by edkjr View Post
We have the 2016 35sk, and had experienced the same problems with modified sign wave inverter. So last year I upgraded to 2000w combo inverter/charger full sign wave. So far working great for us. Also be sure to cut off your ice maker, that draws power when it goes into the heat cycle, when harvesting the ice cubes.
UPDATE: I did just what you suggest and upgraded to a Xantrex Freedom X 2000, and now the fridge works! One thing I did notice, the evaporator fan in the freezer was slowing down and eventually stopped, so I replaced that as well. This may have been drawing a larger load than the old inverter could provide. While I was replacing the evaporator fan, I completely removed the ice maker and turned off the water supply to the fridge. If we need ice, we just put some in a gallon ziplock bag and throw it in the freezer for the trip, way easier!
Also, @Connieb, yes, this coach behaves strangely vs. others I've owned in the past...
-> Strange Behavior #1: The chassis (engine) batteries are under a fair amount of load when the house master switch is ON. Backup cameras are powered, armrest lights are on, and the ding-dong-ding tone when you open the driver's door, etc. It's like the ignition key is in, and turned one click to "ACC" for the entire camping trip. Plugging in to shore power or starting generator does not charge the chassis batteries, so they are nearly completely drained when we leave to go home. Starting up the engine for several hours every couple days during our camping trip is not a viable work-around.
-> Strange Behavior #2: I tried to remedy the above problem by just disconnecting both chassis batteries, but when I checked voltages, I found the voltage between the NEGATIVE battery terminal and the frame was 12V! Should be 0V. Any experience with this issue?
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Old 06-16-2019, 05:32 PM   #19
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THOR #13982
Sounds like there is a connection between the truck and MH batteries.
So the radio and backup camera etc should be powered from the MH batteries. Do you still have the original radio in the dash. Cause that's 1 point where both battery ,+ leads could be connected together. I'm just guessing, off the top of my head.
Keep in mind when your disconnecting batteries pull both+,and- cables. Or if they are under load you will be trying to read current through the meter by disconnecting only ,1 cable.
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