Towing with Vegas

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by thor293

PS:They know that the screaming rpm will make it thru the warranty period till its off their back and wallet. After that its all on you

The V-10 is a bit more bulletproof than that. My F-250 was at 138,000 miles when I traded it in (no tune) and my F-350 was at 75,000 miles (with tune) when I traded it in on the Axis. Both engines ran as good as they did at mile 1.

The biggest issue with the V-10 isn't them blowing up due to high RPM. Its the exhaust manifold studs rusting and breaking. My F-350 had 3 of them break off at around 65,000 miles. Well that, and the spark plug issue but that is more prevalent in the earlier V-10s (occasionally they would spit out a spark plug. Ford made a design change to correct for that).

[thor293]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

The V-10 is a bit more bulletproof than that. My F-250 was at 138,000 miles when I traded it in (no tune) and my F-350 was at 75,000 miles (with tune) when I traded it in on the Axis. Both engines ran as good as they did at mile 1.

The biggest issue with the V-10 isn't them blowing up due to high RPM. Its the exhaust manifold studs rusting and breaking. My F-350 had 3 of them break off at around 65,000 miles. Well that, and the spark plug issue but that is more prevalent in the earlier V-10s (occasionally they would spit out a spark plug. Ford made a design change to correct for that).

I wasn't referring to it blowing up and the end result of high rpms is wear and tear. We all know that an engine that runs at 3000 rpm will more than likely outlast an engine running at 4000 rpm. I agree it is a tough engine but why wear any part of it out early

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by roadhog

JamieGeek - Thanks for the info. I was wondering about a surge brake with a dolly. I have no current plans to tow, but was just wondering about options if the need arose.

Installing a brake controller is something I would probably not do unless towing was something I was seriously looking at doing on a regular basis.

May have to check the pin-outs on my plug after your experience.

TyCreek - Thanks for the info. I appreciate the endorsement of a braking system that has proven itself for you.

I tow with the Master Tow 80THD with surge brakes. I have had no issues with the brakes on the dolly and you can feel them engage when descending steep grades in the Virginia mountains.

My last trip, however, I did not tow and used the Enterprise rental option instead. Worked so well I am now evaluating when to rent and when to tow.

[roadhog]

Originally Posted by dstankov

I tow with the Master Tow 80THD with surge brakes. I have had no issues with the brakes on the dolly and you can feel them engage when descending steep grades in the Virginia mountains.

My last trip, however, I did not tow and used the Enterprise rental option instead. Worked so well I am now evaluating when to rent and when to tow.

The rental is what we are leaning towards as well. We have a son half way across the country so not towing is definitely preferable as our trips are longish. Buying the Axis was also partially because is it a more handy vehicle to get to places than a bigger rig.

However some places are just not available without something smaller. We did Glacier NP last year while traveling with truck and trailer. Loved "Going to the Sun" road. Met another pickup and our mirrors cleared by about an inch or two. We parked the trailer in Great Falls and made a day trip out of the park. Will definitely want to go back. Beautiful place!

[FW28z]

We don't always tow.

If we are cruising the country - going from place to place on a daily basis, we don't tow a car. Afterall, that is the beauty of a motorhome, especially a smaller one - to be able to see the country without any kind of significant tear down of the campsite each day.

But if we are going somewhere for a week or more, especially if it is at the same location, or somewhere where we will anticipate the need for a car - then yea - we will tow our car.

Enterprise is also a good option, but many are not open on weekends, so that might be a consideration. Best thing is to plan ahead and see if the location you are going to has an Enterprise rental, and if they are open weekends.

It also does not hurt to confirm that the specific location will drop off/pick up the car, and at least what their delivery area is.

Also, sometimes the local area where you want to go has free (or at least inexpensive) bus service, so other than having to wait on a bus to show up, that is also another option. So if you research the area you are going to before-hand, you might find you have that option as well.

Finally, depending on your physical abilities, you might also consider carrying bicycles. At our age, we have maybe a 2 mile range in us when riding bikes. That is often enough to get to the store, etc. Last year, I even strapped 50lbs of firewood in a backpack on my back and rode my bike back from the store. I won't make that misgake again.

[FW28z]

Originally Posted by thor293

I wasn't referring to it blowing up and the end result of high rpms is wear and tear. We all know that an engine that runs at 3000 rpm will more than likely outlast an engine running at 4000 rpm. I agree it is a tough engine but why wear any part of it out early

When we had boats, one of the first things you have to get used to is running an engine at high RPM almost constantly. My last boat had a max of 5,000RPM Wide-Open-Throttle, and after getting the boat onto plane at max throttle, I throttled back to around 3,700/4,000 RPM, and it stayed there for the duration of the trip... sometimes for hours.

The engines were built on Chevy 5.7L blocks.

About the only difference in the marine version of the engines (at least internally) are heavy duty springs in the valves for running at higher RPMs (no heavy duty bearings, etc).

In a boat, 1,000 hours is about max for a gas engine before a rebuild. There is no direct correlation between engine hours and mileage, so I cannot say if that is equivalent to 100k miles or not. When we got rid of the boat, it had around 600hrs on the engines ~ over an 18yr time period.

I have heard 1,000 hours in a boat is equivalent to an engine life of around 50~75k miles in a vehicle. I have no idea whether or not that is accurate or not.

But in a RV, the V10 is probably only going to be at high RPM's only occasionally, not constantly as in a boat engine, so I would suspect it to last longer. How much the engine's life is shortened, if at all, probably depends on how much it is pushed at high RPMs.

Also, a major factor in engine failure in boats (and probably RVs as well) is only occasional use, combined with lack of proper maintenance and storage preparation. So I am sure there are more factors than just high RPMs.

[thor293]

Originally Posted by FW28z

When we had boats, one of the first things you have to get used to is running an engine at high RPM almost constantly. My last boat had a max of 5,000RPM Wide-Open-Throttle, and after getting the boat onto plane at max throttle, I throttled back to around 3,700/4,000 RPM, and it stayed there for the duration of the trip... sometimes for hours.

The engines were built on Chevy 5.7L blocks.

About the only difference in the marine version of the engines (at least internally) are heavy duty springs in the valves for running at higher RPMs (no heavy duty bearings, etc).

In a boat, 1,000 hours is about max for a gas engine before a rebuild. There is no direct correlation between engine hours and mileage, so I cannot say if that is equivalent to 100k miles or not. When we got rid of the boat, it had around 600hrs on the engines ~ over an 18yr time period.

I have heard 1,000 hours in a boat is equivalent to an engine life of around 50~75k miles in a vehicle. I have no idea whether or not that is accurate or not.

But in a RV, the V10 is probably only going to be at high RPM's only occasionally, not constantly as in a boat engine, so I would suspect it to last longer. How much the engine's life is shortened, if at all, probably depends on how much it is pushed at high RPMs.

Also, a major factor in engine failure in boats (and probably RVs as well) is only occasional use, combined with lack of proper maintenance and storage preparation. So I am sure there are more factors than just high RPMs.

All valid points but still if a programmer can bring down rpm's and increase torque through use of the transmission it makes good sense to me.

[FW28z]

I have to wonder though, what are you giving up by reprogramming the system?

Perhaps it's as simple as Ford did so to meet fleet CAFE standards?

Or maybe, it is the best compromise for the general purpose use of the engines (meaning specific uses, such as RV's might warrant a reprogramming).

Or is there some unknown disadvantage, other than voiding the warranty?

I would want to know more before I did it.

[thor293]

Originally Posted by FW28z

I have to wonder though, what are you giving up by reprogramming the system?

Perhaps it's as simple as Ford did so to meet fleet CAFE standards?

Or maybe, it is the best compromise for the general purpose use of the engines (meaning specific uses, such as RV's might warrant a reprogramming).

Or is there some unknown disadvantage, other than voiding the warranty?

I would want to know more before I did it.

They claim the reprogramming is all within Fords specs.
Obviously using a programmer is a personal choice. I really like the way it changed the transmission and cruise control.

Here is the info on transmission:
Shift Schedules – can be modified to an economy or towing calibration. An economy calibration up-shifts will be sooner. Towing calibration shifting will occur higher in the RPM ranges to keep vehicle from lugging and take advantage of the engines peak torque. In 2v V10’s that do not have Tow/Haul mode this can be beneficial when towing. On the 3v V10’s, the Ford Strategy is to NOT use all 5 gears in the Torq Shift transmission. Hard to believe I know. In non-tow/haul modes Ford uses only 4 gears when going up through the gearbox. With a custom tune from 5 Star we will use all gears in our shifting and torque converter lock strategies. You will also see quicker shifts, as the RV will proceed into OD quicker than stock strategy. This will provide better power and economy our of your 3v V10.

Torque converter control:
In all 2v and 3v V10’s Torque Converter strategies can be reworked to lock up sooner and stay locked longer at light cruising speeds to also help with economy…A locked converter is power to the ground. Some times a stock RV when you hit any incline the RV will unlock OD gear and down shift. We can get your RV to hold OD longer and not unlock… now of course on large hills it will down shift…like it should…
On the 3v V10’s, the Ford Strategy is to NOT use all 5 gears in the Torq Shift transmission. Hard to believe I know. In non-tow/haul modes Ford uses only 4 gears when going up through the gearbox. With a custom tune from 5 Star we will use all gears in our shifting and torque converter lock strategies. You will also see quicker shifts, as the RV will proceed into OD quicker than stock strategy. This will provide better power and economy our of your 3v V10.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by FW28z

I would want to know more before I did it.

When I put the 5-star tune on our F-350 I was active on Ford Truck Enthusiasts News - Ford-Trucks.com. On those forums there was/is a lot of discussion about the 5-star tune (and one of the 5-star staff was a member to answer any and all questions).

Thus there is a lot of "I like Mike @ 5-star" stuff on there like:
The official "I like Mike" thread - Mike at 5-star - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

Granted a thread full of testimonials isn't really hard data..just a bunch of happy customers (as I was one).

I'll probably put a 5-star tune on the Axis at some point--more of a matter of when, not if.

[groswald]

FW28z - our "toad" is a Can AM Spyder RT. The engine is a de-tuned Aprilia v-twin sport-bike motor. Cruise is 5000 RPM, power peak at 6000 or so and tops out between 9000 and 10000. We can hit 60 mph in first gear - which is kind of a rush when you finally hit the power peak. But, as you said, it took some getting used to!

I'm learning to not react to the V10's screaming although I do try to anticipate the downshifts when I have the cruise control engaged at higher speeds (most of the time) and keep the RPMs under 4000.

As for the 5-Star tune - everything I hear about it is good, but I think I'll wait until I'm near the end of the powertrain warranty before I consider one. 5 Star is quite clear that you should expect the tune to void your warranty.

Besides, I'm actually pretty pleased with the stock performance of the chassis overall.

Regards,

Randy

[timp410]

Wow, my current toad is a Can Am Spyder RT, if you get a chance, please post a picture.

Thanks.

[groswald]

timp410,

I don't have a picture handy, but ours looks a lot like that. It's the blue that came out in '12 with a few added LED's for "safety".

Trailer is an Aluma UT10. I'll post a picture when I find one.

Any chance you've figured out where the CG is on the Spyder? I wonder how far forward to load it so as not to overdo the tongue weight.

Randy

[timp410]

Randy,

I was told that the CG on the Spyder RT is pretty much under the drivers foot peg. I was able to lift My Spyder using a 1500 lb jack by sliding it right under the drivers foot peg and it seem to be on balance. By the way, I love the Aluma UT10 trailer. I wish I had performed a little research before I purchase the one I currently have. My Spyder is a 2011 RTS.

[MikeM]

has anyone used a Tandem Tow Dolly, where you can carry a car plus a golfcart or motorcycle

[FW28z]

I had thought of the possibility of a CanAm Spyder for a toad, but then got sticker shock. It seems the price really drops for one a few yrs old, so we would probably go used if we ever bought one.

[FW28z]

Originally Posted by MikeM

has anyone used a Tandem Tow Dolly, where you can carry a car plus a golfcart or motorcycle

I'm thinking you might be close to the tow limit with such a setup, depending on your coach. Perhaps a small pickup, like a Ford Ranger, if you can find a nice used one, with a motorcycle in the bed, would be a lot lighter solution if you didn't need a trailer.

[JamieGeek]

The newer Axis/Vegas units have an 8,000 lb hitch (ones built after 10/2014). Even then, though, you have to take into account the GVWR, and GCWR values (e.g. the hitch won't be the limiting factor anymore).

For all of the Axis/Vegas models the GVWR is 12,500 and the GCWR is 18,500. This leaves only a maximum of 6,000lbs (2,000 lbs less than the hitch is rated for).

A golf cart will weigh in around 1,000 lbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_cart) which would be pushing it for the tow weight.

Our 24.1 weighed in at 11,400 lbs when loaded with us on board which gives us some room on the tongue weight but our unit is an older model with the 5,000 lb hitch. We tow my wife's Escape (~3600 lbs) with the Acme Dolly (380 lbs) adding in another 1000 lbs would bring us pretty close to the hitches 5,000lb max weight. A bit too close for my comfort--a newer unit should have an extra 1,000 lbs to play with; not sure I would want to though.

[FW28z]

The important thing, I think with all coaches, is to not go by the hitch capacity to determine tow ratings. The max tow rating is determined by the lowest rated component, so even with a 8,000lb hitch, the GVWR-CGWR or other factors may come into play first.

Or if you have a 5,000lb hitch, then that will be the limiting factor even though you might have more capacity. For example, the GVWR of my coach is 14,500lbs, and the CGWR is 22,000lbs, which gives me a theoretical tow capacity of 7,500lbs (not factoring any borrowing from the GVWR-actual weight).

But my hitch, being rated at 5,000lbs is the limiting factor, so my max tow capacity is 5,000lbs, unless I were to replace the receiver.

Each coach is different, and how you load it out will be different, so the only real way to determine tow weight is to weigh the coach, figure out the GVWR-CGWR, and see if you can "borrow" any weight from the results (at least in theory).