Alternator not charging house batteries, can't figure it out

[Paradox998]

I did test the off/use battery switch and it was fine and in the correct position. The problem was a blown 7.5 amp fuse in line with the ignition line to the IRD. Had to look to find it and it was never called out in any Thor materials that I could find. Anyway, all is working now.

[carlgorski]

Originally Posted by Paradox998

Fixed it! There was a 7.5amp fuse that was inline with the wire to the ignition switch. Of course it was by black cable covers and hidden by electrical tape. In any case thanks to all for the help. It would have been nice if Thor noted this fuse location (or existence) somewhere in the manual or on an electrical schematic. Well at least I know my charging system now.

Really you haven't figured out by now that Thor doesn't make it easy.

[vkb]

Originally Posted by 16Pal36.3

I've had issues with my "16" Palazzo since I bought it. Thor will not supply sufficient information to allow the owner to troubleshoot. They insist that the "Qualified dealer service personnel" do it. The problem with that fantasy is that their service network is inadequate, incompetent and inefficient. It's fine if you can afford 2-4 month waits for service and don't care if it does not get fixed. The only way some of the issues on my rig get fixed is if I do it.

When our Axis was 'brand new' .. we had an electrical issue … we knew if we took it back to the dealer it would sit there for several months...
We found a local RV Repair Service … the fella said..."if you bring it to me it might sit for a month before I get to it as I am that busy...however...for $100 I will come to you...diagnose your issue and fix it plus parts" needless to say..done deal. He came out the next day...found we were missing a relay between the Use/Store switch, etc .. (the dealer had taken it to repair another unit and had not replaced it ) … We called our dealer..told them the issue and in 2 days we were over there for our appointment...and out of there in about half hour...one of the best spent $100 ever !!

So...my point being...you might be able to find an honest, hardworking independent RV Repair service to get the job done. Will it be covered by warranty? Probably not.

[eodchik@yahoo.com]

Would you provide a detailed description of where you found the 7.5 amp inline fuse? I have the schematics from Thor and it doesn’t show anything, but the Sprinter diagram states that anything added to the EK1 auxiliary below the drivers seat has to be fused. This is where we found the Trombetta. Waiting for the new one to come in to see if that was the culprit that is keeping house batteries from charging from the alternator. Any help is appreciated!

[Paradox998]

Happy to help. I have a 25v Chateau with a Ford V10. The solenoid and switch is located on the left wheel well, near the back firewall and near the top of the wheel well. The fuse is a single fuse in a black plastic holder about 6 inches from the solenoid. Easy to miss as it is small and in-line. Mine was also covered by electrical tape. Pull apart the two halves of the holder and replace the fuse.



The fuse was not shown on any diagram I could find, and I did look.



Good luck, let me know if this is clear.

[rudyhehn]

COngratulations on the fix. Always a bummer to spend so much time on an issue but satisfying to find it and make a successful repair.

[Jevad]

Originally Posted by GilTphoto

I had this same issue on my 2017 Quantum WS31. 4 times I took it to LaMesa RV in Port St Lucie, FL. 4 times they said nothing was wrong. In 1.5 years, I went through 3 sets of house batteries. Thor sent me the parts. Trombetta and relay isolator work together, so it's best to change both. Been working fine ever since. These parts were under the coolant reservoir.

Gil - I think my Four Winds 30D is similar enough to yours, do you know where your FUSE is for the isolator?

[Jevad]

Folks, I'm in the same boat, trying to do some debuggin and searching for what Thor wired and how?


Thor Four Winds 30D, Ford e450 chassis. Im pretty sure it did charge off the alternator as I boondocked my way from NJ to FL last spring... but not sure when it STOPPED charging off the alternator?


Long part of the story - I assume it might have been last November during 2 night boondock at harvest host in the North East. Rookie mistake, ran the house batteries down, as the furnace ran overnight, it completely killed the batteries (Trusted the dumb panel gage thinking 3/4 battery at night was enough). Woke up in the morning to a very cold rig (and did I mention at a Harvest Host... so a little hungover).... I dont recall if I had to jump start the Chassis as well, but finally got the generator to start up. But dash radio froze (blank screen), and it looked like the RV House wasnt charging. Got it home, put on shore power and everything came back to normal - found out how to "Reset" the radio (stick a tiny pin in the reset) and everything seemed to work. Not liking the dumb led panel, I opted to install a Victron Battery Monitor (712)... works good. But now I noticed its NOT charging while Im driving.


In summary:
- It USED to charge on Alternator (so its not that its not configured to do it)

- It DOES Charge on both shore line and generator
- It DOES NOT charge when rig is running (regardless of engine revs or how long I drive - someone said maybe the smart battery isolator waits until chaxsis is full before it charges House - Nope)
- It DOES charge when I use the emergency bypass



- Maybe unrelated - but When I start my Chassis, I MUST also turn on the House battery in order for the Radio/Rear view camera to work? I dont remember if I had to do that before, but I do now. (would the house battery turn on automatically when the chassis runs)?



So, help me dear friends...

What does Thor Put on this model 2018 Four Winds 30D? BIRD as in the image above? BIM as shown?



What could it be?
Bad Fuse? - Where is it? Would it still charge with Emergency Bypass?

Bad Isolator? (BIM or BIRD?)
Bad Relay? - I dont think so since it does work for the emergency bypass.


THANK YOU in advance.... I dont know what I would do with out the smart folks on this site.


Dave

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Jevad

Folks, I'm in the same boat, trying to do some debuggin and searching for what Thor wired and how?


Thor Four Winds 30D, Ford e450 chassis. Im pretty sure it did charge off the alternator as I boondocked my way from NJ to FL last spring... but not sure when it STOPPED charging off the alternator?


Long part of the story - I assume it might have been last November during 2 night boondock at harvest host in the North East. Rookie mistake, ran the house batteries down, as the furnace ran overnight, it completely killed the batteries (Trusted the dumb panel gage thinking 3/4 battery at night was enough). Woke up in the morning to a very cold rig (and did I mention at a Harvest Host... so a little hungover).... I dont recall if I had to jump start the Chassis as well, but finally got the generator to start up. But dash radio froze (blank screen), and it looked like the RV House wasnt charging. Got it home, put on shore power and everything came back to normal - found out how to "Reset" the radio (stick a tiny pin in the reset) and everything seemed to work. Not liking the dumb led panel, I opted to install a Victron Battery Monitor (712)... works good. But now I noticed its NOT charging while Im driving.


In summary:
- It USED to charge on Alternator (so its not that its not configured to do it)

- It DOES Charge on both shore line and generator
- It DOES NOT charge when rig is running (regardless of engine revs or how long I drive - someone said maybe the smart battery isolator waits until chaxsis is full before it charges House - Nope)
- It DOES charge when I use the emergency bypass



- Maybe unrelated - but When I start my Chassis, I MUST also turn on the House battery in order for the Radio/Rear view camera to work? I dont remember if I had to do that before, but I do now. (would the house battery turn on automatically when the chassis runs)?



So, help me dear friends...

What does Thor Put on this model 2018 Four Winds 30D? BIRD as in the image above? BIM as shown?



What could it be?
Bad Fuse? - Where is it? Would it still charge with Emergency Bypass?

Bad Isolator? (BIM or BIRD?)
Bad Relay? - I dont think so since it does work for the emergency bypass.


THANK YOU in advance.... I dont know what I would do with out the smart folks on this site.


Dave

House batteries never turn on automatically.
Turning on the house batteries for the radio up front is required - it's the way it is wired.

Sounds like you have a bad BIRD/BIM.

[Jevad]

Originally Posted by Jevad

Folks, I'm in the same boat, trying to do some debuggin and searching for what Thor wired and how?


Thor Four Winds 30D, Ford e450 chassis. Im pretty sure it did charge off the alternator as I boondocked my way from NJ to FL last spring... but not sure when it STOPPED charging off the alternator?


Long part of the story - I assume it might have been last November during 2 night boondock at harvest host in the North East. Rookie mistake, ran the house batteries down, as the furnace ran overnight, it completely killed the batteries (Trusted the dumb panel gage thinking 3/4 battery at night was enough). Woke up in the morning to a very cold rig (and did I mention at a Harvest Host... so a little hungover).... I dont recall if I had to jump start the Chassis as well, but finally got the generator to start up. But dash radio froze (blank screen), and it looked like the RV House wasnt charging. Got it home, put on shore power and everything came back to normal - found out how to "Reset" the radio (stick a tiny pin in the reset) and everything seemed to work. Not liking the dumb led panel, I opted to install a Victron Battery Monitor (712)... works good. But now I noticed its NOT charging while Im driving.


In summary:
- It USED to charge on Alternator (so its not that its not configured to do it)

- It DOES Charge on both shore line and generator
- It DOES NOT charge when rig is running (regardless of engine revs or how long I drive - someone said maybe the smart battery isolator waits until chaxsis is full before it charges House - Nope)
- It DOES charge when I use the emergency bypass



- Maybe unrelated - but When I start my Chassis, I MUST also turn on the House battery in order for the Radio/Rear view camera to work? I dont remember if I had to do that before, but I do now. (would the house battery turn on automatically when the chassis runs)?



So, help me dear friends...

What does Thor Put on this model 2018 Four Winds 30D? BIRD as in the image above? BIM as shown?



What could it be?
Bad Fuse? - Where is it? Would it still charge with Emergency Bypass?

Bad Isolator? (BIM or BIRD?)
Bad Relay? - I dont think so since it does work for the emergency bypass.


THANK YOU in advance.... I dont know what I would do with out the smart folks on this site.


Dave

OK... some debugging done - figured I would pay it forward.


1. My 2018 Thor Four Winds 30D, Owners Resource for my vin says it was SUPPOSED to have the Precisions BIM-160... however pulling the antifreeze reservoir to find the BIM, it turns out I have the simpler?/cheaper?/crappier? Isolator Relay & Delay modules.


2. Having let the house batteries run down to about 60% charge I checked some voltages on the isolator with the engine running and/or pressing the emergency start. While I could hear the relay click with the emergency start voltages were never equal - meaning the relay wasnt closing the contact to bridge the Chassis to the House batteries.


3. Fishing around I found I had TWO 7.5A fuses in line with the low current side of the Isolation Relay solenoid - ONE for the Emergency Bypass button, and ONE that fed the Isolation Relay Delay (IRD) component.

- Looks like the IRD supposedly is switched off the Engine some how (I couldnt follow , feeds Delay component, to make sure the engine is running before it triggers the relay to bridge the HOUSE and CHASSIS batteries (thus allowing the House battery to be charged off the alternator).


4. My 7.5A fuse that fed the Isolation Relay Delay component was blown. I replaced that and now could hear the Isolation Relay close a few seconds after the engine started running (Didnt hear that before).... However the Isolation Relay would never bridge to batteries.



5. I contacted Trombetta, shared my experience and they agreed the Trombetta Isolation Relay (Contactor part 684-1251-012) had to be replaced. Trombetta recommended newer better part number - 684-1251-032-02 instead... so use that if you experience the same)



I have ordered the replacement part, and will install later this weekend. I've attached a few pictures and also a drawing for what I found showing the fuses and parts.... hope it helps.


Dave.

[HarryS]

Yep. Those solenoids are troublesome.

[simidrm]

I am having the same problem, I replaced the trobetta relay and it worked for a short time, unhook the battery cables from the relay and use a ohm meter to see if relay is working, mine is clicking but not making contact inside, I called total rv in elkhart ind. and they told me that is a common problem with the bird as it is always seeking power and opens and closes the relay and overheating it and burns them out, there suggestion is to replace the entire bird system with a different system, since I have other issues and i have an extended warranty I will be taking to them next week,
but you can call them,they are very friendly and will answer your questions.

[camperguy99]

I think me and others have solved this problem long ago. Just replace the Trombetta with a White Rodgers 586-108111 solenoid also rated for 200 Amps. This is a 15 Volt coil and has much lower coil dissipation and will not burn itself up. I have been using it for 5 years and works great! You can't hardly hold your hand on the Trombetta and this one is only warm to the touch. Replace it once and be done. It does mount vertically not horizontal but pretty much has the same footprint. Here is White Rodgers warning about using 12 Volt coils in continuous duty applications.

NOTE: CAUTION must be used in coil selection for use in 12 volt
systems where battery charging may expose coil to continuous,
higher-than-rated voltage. 15 volt coils are recommended.
White-Rodgers will not be responsible for consequences of
misapplied solenoids.

This 15 Volt solenoid has silver plated contacts standard. eBay has one for about $65. Truly a much better solution!

camperguy99

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by camperguy99

I think me and others have solved this problem long ago. Just replace the Trombetta with a White Rodgers 586-108111 solenoid also rated for 200 Amps. This is a 15 Volt coil and has much lower coil dissipation and will not burn itself up. I have been using it for 5 years and works great! You can't hardly hold your hand on the Trombetta and this one is only warm to the touch. Replace it once and be done. It does mount vertically not horizontal but pretty much has the same footprint. Here is White Rodgers warning about using 12 Volt coils in continuous duty applications.

NOTE: CAUTION must be used in coil selection for use in 12 volt
systems where battery charging may expose coil to continuous,
higher-than-rated voltage. 15 volt coils are recommended.
White-Rodgers will not be responsible for consequences of
misapplied solenoids.

This 15 Volt solenoid has silver plated contacts standard. eBay has one for about $65. Truly a much better solution!

camperguy99

Or buy the Emerson branded one (same solenoid) on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Emerson-586-1.../dp/B003HEIS32

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by 16Pal36.3

I've had issues with my "16" Palazzo since I bought it. Thor will not supply sufficient information to allow the owner to troubleshoot. They insist that the "Qualified dealer service personnel" do it. The problem with that fantasy is that their service network is inadequate, incompetent and inefficient. It's fine if you can afford 2-4 month waits for service and don't care if it does not get fixed. The only way some of the issues on my rig get fixed is if I do it.

Try calling Alpinhaus in Amsterdam, NY.

[Jevad]

Originally Posted by Jevad

OK... some debugging done - figured I would pay it forward.


1. My 2018 Thor Four Winds 30D, Owners Resource for my vin says it was SUPPOSED to have the Precisions BIM-160... however pulling the antifreeze reservoir to find the BIM, it turns out I have the simpler?/cheaper?/crappier? Isolator Relay & Delay modules.


2. Having let the house batteries run down to about 60% charge I checked some voltages on the isolator with the engine running and/or pressing the emergency start. While I could hear the relay click with the emergency start voltages were never equal - meaning the relay wasnt closing the contact to bridge the Chassis to the House batteries.


3. Fishing around I found I had TWO 7.5A fuses in line with the low current side of the Isolation Relay solenoid - ONE for the Emergency Bypass button, and ONE that fed the Isolation Relay Delay (IRD) component.

- Looks like the IRD supposedly is switched off the Engine some how (I couldnt follow , feeds Delay component, to make sure the engine is running before it triggers the relay to bridge the HOUSE and CHASSIS batteries (thus allowing the House battery to be charged off the alternator).


4. My 7.5A fuse that fed the Isolation Relay Delay component was blown. I replaced that and now could hear the Isolation Relay close a few seconds after the engine started running (Didnt hear that before).... However the Isolation Relay would never bridge to batteries.



5. I contacted Trombetta, shared my experience and they agreed the Trombetta Isolation Relay (Contactor part 684-1251-012) had to be replaced. Trombetta recommended newer better part number - 684-1251-032-02 instead... so use that if you experience the same)



I have ordered the replacement part, and will install later this weekend. I've attached a few pictures and also a drawing for what I found showing the fuses and parts.... hope it helps.


Dave.

Just to follow up to all. I swapped out the Trombetta Isolation Relay with the same version (not the newer - I had ordered it before I was recommended to use the newer) and it is charging now both automatically from the engine and when I hit the bypass. Note, ironically the OTHER Fuse (for emergency bypass) had also blown, so both fuses were blown which is odd for a relay (drawing too much current on low side?).



If this relay should fail again, I would probably consider replacing both Isolation Relay & Delay with a BIM... sounds like a "Smarter" solution.


Thanks to all for your input.


Dave.

[Manny G.]

Originally Posted by Paradox998

I did test the off/use battery switch and it was fine and in the correct position. The problem was a blown 7.5 amp fuse in line with the ignition line to the IRD. Had to look to find it and it was never called out in any Thor materials that I could find. Anyway, all is working now.

My 7.5 amp fuse was burnt as well. Replaced it and now my batteries are charging. Thank you for posting this... I didn't know what else to check

[Pillbox]

Ted is right.
Just installed this BIM) and threw the trombetta as far as I could.
Terry

[First RV 4 me]

The part number ending in 02 is by far the silver contact unit. OEM is a soft copper and both run HOT. If I have any future problems I carry a new BIM and will toss out the old.
Learned the hard way I now also carry a spare water pump...

Problems have become my best teacher.

[Hooligan2]

Originally Posted by eodchik@yahoo.com

Would you provide a detailed description of where you found the 7.5 amp inline fuse? I have the schematics from Thor and it doesn’t show anything, but the Sprinter diagram states that anything added to the EK1 auxiliary below the drivers seat has to be fused. This is where we found the Trombetta. Waiting for the new one to come in to see if that was the culprit that is keeping house batteries from charging from the alternator. Any help is appreciated!

............................
Sprinter- Trombetta is under the seat. Find the small signal wire on the trombetta. Mine was blue with yellow stripe. The small brown wire was the ground. Obviously yours may be different. And it was a 5 amp fuse. Look for matching color wire on red inline fuse holder off a terminal strip under the seat..
When the Trombetta failed, the coil shorted and blew the fuse.

Good luck'