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Old 12-20-2018, 11:37 PM   #1
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
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THOR #10644
Backup Lights NEVER off

2016 Outlaw Class-A 37RB
On a F53 Chassis.

I noticed on returning to my RV that the reverse lights were on. The keys were in my hand.

Long story short: Once I drove the RV a few feet and checked again, the lights were out - as they should be.

Over the next few start-stop trips, I noticed that the lights would be stuck on more and more often.

Now they are on constantly.

First I suspected some weird electrical problem. But everything checks out.
Then I thought the shifter (on the column, automatic) might be misaligned and not sensing that I am not in reverse. Took the whole column apart inside. All looks tight and aligned perfectly.

Now I'm thinking the Neutral Safety Switch (or Transmission Range Switch) is faulty.

But the RV shifts and drives completely normal. The PRND42 indicator reads dead center in every position and there is no abnormal play in the shift lever.

I'm on the road with the RV in Florida and need to find a dry place to park and crawl under and take a look. Solid rain down here currently.

I can't find any reference online exactly where I'll find that switch. Any experience here??

Any other ideas before I give up and try to find a place to take it around the holiday?

Thanks!
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Old 12-20-2018, 11:57 PM   #2
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THOR #10579
Attached is the reverse lamps circuit for my 2013 F53, might be similar to yours.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Reversing Lamps 93.1.pdf (167.5 KB, 54 views)
File Type: pdf Electronic Engine Controls 9.pdf (119.9 KB, 27 views)
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:04 AM   #3
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I am guessing this probably is not the problem, and I don't want to make things sound silly or simple, but when I lock my Pontiac with the key fob or the internal delay system, my back up lights stay on for 60 seconds. Same thing if I unlock with the fob. It is programmable, and I have it programmed that way for my own personal needs. You may have a similar delay.
On my LF31 RV, I have a similar delay, but it isn't programmable, as far as I know, and it is the parking/running lights that stay on a short period of time.
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:08 AM   #4
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THOR #10644
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnschnit View Post
Attached is the reverse lamps circuit for my 2013 F53, might be similar to yours.
Very interesting! Thank you.
I thought of a relay, but nothing in my F-53 owners manual shows one.
I'd like to hunt down this mysterious "AUXILIARY RELAY BOX 1 11-5" and see if I can pull that relay and check it.

Any hints as to where I might find it?
Thanks again!
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:11 AM   #5
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Thanks, but the 2016 Thor Outlaw doesn't have a key fob. It doesn't have the ability to have lights stay on as part of a security setting. When you key off, it's off
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:54 PM   #6
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Hope these diagrams help, Looks like the relay box is out in the engine compartment passenger side under the battery junction box. At least thats where its supposed to be on my '13
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Fuse and Relay Information 5.pdf (94.6 KB, 30 views)
File Type: pdf Component Location Views 1 151.1.pdf (805.8 KB, 22 views)
File Type: pdf Component Testing 9.pdf (146.7 KB, 18 views)
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Old 12-22-2018, 03:29 PM   #7
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UPDATE:Backup Lights NEVER off

Well, all of your support and posted diagrams are certainly appreciated!
The auxiliary relay box was actually easy to find. Unfortunately, when I pulled the reverse lamp relay, nothing at all happened. The backup lights remained lit! I thought maybe the diagram wasn't correct so I pulled the other relays one-by-one. Nothing...
I plan to crawl under there later this afternoon.
Thank you again for your help! It's so good to know that there are folks like yourselves so willing to pitch in and share.
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Old 12-22-2018, 08:27 PM   #8
lug
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THOR #11442
Remove the reverse lamp relay. If you have a voltmeter put the red test lead where relay blade 5 would plug into and put black lead on ground. If you have voltage, pull fuse F12, 25A, at the battery junction box that will kill all power to the reverse lamp relay portion only. Click image for larger version

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Old 12-22-2018, 08:32 PM   #9
lug
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THOR #11442
If you can isolate the power source then you can see if it looks easy to fix or ask for a witch doctor. I submitted two pics and got four.
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Old 12-22-2018, 09:21 PM   #10
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Going back to the schematic I noticed that the circuit splits off to feed the backup lights to a trailer. Is there a chance you could be towing a car that is back feeding into the circuit? Of course we are assuming that Thor wired thing up according to the schematic?
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Old 12-23-2018, 02:47 PM   #11
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Right,
I guess I should have mentioned right off that I'm not towing anything.
However, I did open up the top of the dash panel and ran wiring from the back of a cigar lighter to a GPS. 5 minute job and everything was fine for hundreds of miles. I really don't think its related?? Even the connections I made were shrink tubed and perfectly soldered. I doubt I 'nudged' anything?


Checked pin 5 of the relay and yes, 13.25V
Pulled Fuse 12.
Backup Lights STILL on.

I've been researching about many reverse lights are switched through ground instead of the hot (something about making sure they fail ON instead of fail OFF, so you know about it).

Maybe the F53 also switches through ground and the lights are finding ground somewhere else through a short?

I usually don't have this much trouble with something like this
Frustrating..
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Old 12-23-2018, 05:33 PM   #12
lug
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THOR #11442
When you pulled out the fuse that would have eliminated a incorrect wiring from fuse 12 to relay slot 5 and resulted in no power to the bulbs. Flip the RV tow port lid open and see if something, debris, water or dead bugs, is touching the blades. Here's another thought, remove fuse F34. This isolates the trailer side from the chassis side. If the lights are still on then pull fuse F33. Your shrinking your search area to before or after the central junction box. I hope it doesn't come down to isolating batteries. Click image for larger version

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Old 12-24-2018, 02:55 PM   #13
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THOR #10644
Christmas Eve Troubleshooting - Backup Lights NEVER off

Lug, you've obviously done a significant amount of troubleshooting in the past

The trailer tow port was squeaky clean. I did check that many days ago, but gave a really good check yesterday - just in case.

I pulled F34 and the reverse lights went out.
I put F34 back and pulled F33. Again, the lights went out.

Then I turned the ignition on but didn't start the vehicle.
I put it in reverse.

When I pull F34, the lights are on in reverse and out when in park!
When I pull F33 (F34 in), the lights are out both in reverse and in park.

Now the interesting part:
My Thor has these push-in oval reverse lights. Don't even need a tool to pull them out. I pulled them to look at the connection going to each light. On the driver side light, there is a lone, red wire coming up inside the fiberglass, past the light opening and continuing on up, up as far as my flashlight can see - maybe even up under the roof. When I follow it out the other end, it comes out the bottom of the fiberglass rear cap and is tucked inside the rear bumper - along, but outside a wire loom tubing and off up into the frame somewhere. This is *very* suspicious! This really, really looks like a wire that was added after the whole unit was built.
I am the only owner of this RV. I bought it new. It's never been registered.
I think it was a repair that Camping World did when the rear awning would blow a fuse on open or closing the switch. I refused to accept delivery until they fixed it. I'll bet they rewired it quick and dirty. ....hmmmm...where is the old wire they snipped?? Not touching the frame I hope?? Am I on to something here, or is it just me? This mysterious red wire doesn't visibly involve the backup lights at all, that I can see. But it sure has my attention.

One question I *think* we can answer at this point... We can cross off the Neutral Safety Switch - right?

Thanks again for all your diagnostic help! I hope Santa brings you a shiny new wrist watch that reads OBD2 codes just by walking up to any vehicle!
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Old 12-24-2018, 05:09 PM   #14
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THOR #11442
The safety switch keeps you from starting vehicle in Reverse or Forward. We can rule out the PCM and for now Ford chassis wiring as delivered to Thor. Somehow, somewhere it appears you have got power back feeding through the trailer side of your reverse lights (F34) into (F33) via splice S216. To verify this pull the F34, remove the reverse lamp relay and check for voltage at blade 5 port. You should have no voltage, but when you reinstall F34 you should have voltage which confirms the back feed. Put everything back except for fuse F34. Do a engine off reverse lights check just like you did before except you won't be pulling fuses or relays. At this point, if all is good, the troubleshooting will focus on the trailer portion only. This will involve crawling underneath the RV and tracking down connections between wire sections. As for that Red wire that is a mystery. Does that red wire terminate inside the wire loom going to the RV jack?
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Old 12-25-2018, 01:28 AM   #15
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THOR #10579
I would have to agree with LUG, If things are working correctly whenyou pull F34 you have to be back feeding the 12v back thru the trailer reverse lamps. Looking at the locations diagrams for my '13 (which I will attach) the connectors are under the dash. I would go back into the dash and see if you can see something. Looks like you have a short with a 12v hot lead.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Component Location Views 4.pdf (439.0 KB, 15 views)
File Type: pdf Component Location Views 5.pdf (368.0 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf Component Location Views 6.pdf (341.7 KB, 11 views)
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Old 12-27-2018, 04:50 PM   #16
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THOR #10644
DEC 27th Troubleshooting - Backup Lights NEVER off

Christmas holiday kept me from pursuing this issue, but today I got back to it.

Sure enough, pulling F34 and then checking pin 5 of the Reverse Lamp Replay showed 0.0 volts. The voltage was also not a few floating mV - typical of an unconnected circuit. This dropped right to ground when F34 was pulled and went right to 13.25V with F34 installed.
Thanks Lug!

jnschnit, thanks for uploading the component location diagrams. I'd like to find the head-end of the trailer light connector and pull it. A) I don't even need it for now, and B) I'll bet I can check each pin of it and figure out which wire is feeding back..
This is also a very good hunch, since I was in the dash just a few days before this whole trouble started. I wouldn't doubt that I unknowingly bumped something..even as careful as I was.

Let me know if you guys have a better idea. So far, you've been leading me through this step-by-step perfectly ;-)
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:34 AM   #17
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THOR #10579
Glad to see your making some headway on this. Going back to the diagram I attached the location information for the connectors in the circuit. Unfortunately the connector contain several circuits so it won't be as easy as just disconnecting the connector and going with that. C405 and C139are located outside the coach on the frame. C140 is the connector that leads into the coach thru the firewall. C211 and C213 are both in the dash. Since you stated earlier that you had added some wiring, I would go back and make sure that is OK.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Component Location Views 10.pdf (569.4 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf Component Location Views 11.pdf (329.8 KB, 11 views)
File Type: pdf Component Location Views 6.pdf (341.7 KB, 13 views)
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:49 AM   #18
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THOR #10579
LMICHEL, Any resolution to this?
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Old 01-06-2019, 03:24 AM   #19
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THOR #13869
What about the reverse light switch?
I would only guess it is on the transmission.
There has to be one for the system to even know when you put it into reverse.
Just throwing an idea out there.
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Old 01-06-2019, 04:22 AM   #20
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Docking lights on?
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