Can zero maintainance batteries be used as house batteries

[mcr1010]

FWIW, I just read some info on WFCO converters on another forum about hooking up your shore power especially at your house to a GFI outlet. This maybe the reason for some non charging or converter woes. Maybe not.
The model WFCO converter I have is WF-8955PEC. I have not had any battery or converter problems-knocking on wooden head; had my share of other stuff though.

Ref. site: WFCO Power Converter Problem - Forest River Forums

[bevedfelker]

I've been PMing with Doc on this issue. I'm in complete agreement with Petef also. How could the draw from the smoke detector, CO detector, possibly the refrigerator be so high that the converter was unable to charge the battery? It was hooked up at the dealers in the daytime - what else could have been on and been such a 12VDC power hog?

I think Harris' position is a crock filled on the southbound end of a northbound horse. I think Harris left bad batteries go out. If this was such an endemic problem how come the forums aren't lit up like a Christmas tree about this? So how many WFCO 8900 converters do you think are out there? I'd estimate THOUSANDS -- especially if Thor is using them because they are inexpensive.

So if Thor agrees to cover this under their warranty, what will the dealer replace the batteries with -- two different Harris batteries? Isn't this just peeing up a rope if there is this explicit bad symbiotic relationship between a Harris battery and a WFCO converter? And why just the 8900 WFCO? What is so special about that one?

When I was an AF Group Commander my senior NCOs used to ask me, "Col, do you ever run out of questions?" I'd sure be asking Harris & Thor "WTF?" Doc isn't an electrical engineer and neither are many of us, and staying in a Holiday Inn isn't going to help solve this if it truly is a systemic problem.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by bevedfelker

I've been PMing with Doc on this issue. I'm in complete agreement with Petef also. How could the draw from the smoke detector, CO detector, possibly the refrigerator be so high that the converter was unable to charge the battery? It was hooked up at the dealers in the daytime - what else could have been on and been such a 12VDC power hog?

I think Harris' position is a crock filled on the southbound end of a northbound horse. I think Harris left bad batteries go out. If this was such an endemic problem how come the forums aren't lit up like a Christmas tree about this? So how many WFCO 8900 converters do you think are out there? I'd estimate THOUSANDS -- especially if Thor is using them because they are inexpensive.

So if Thor agrees to cover this under their warranty, what will the dealer replace the batteries with -- two different Harris batteries? Isn't this just peeing up a rope if there is this explicit bad symbiotic relationship between a Harris battery and a WFCO converter? And why just the 8900 WFCO? What is so special about that one?

When I was an AF Group Commander my senior NCOs used to ask me, "Col, do you ever run out of questions?" I'd sure be asking Harris & Thor "WTF?" Doc isn't an electrical engineer and neither are many of us, and staying in a Holiday Inn isn't going to help solve this if it truly is a systemic problem.

First the disclaimer: I am not having this issue and I do not have Harris 12VDC batteries or a WFCO 8900 converter in my coach. I have 2 6VDC batteries and a WFCO 9855 converter.

Has anyone asked Harris what specifically about the 8900 converter is causing the problem and for them to provide the specific reason in writing?

Also, your dealer may have caused the issue themselves. My dealer for instance has such a large inventory that they cannot possibly plug every coach into shore power once a month let alone weekly. They do, however, have all of their inventory available for viewing to include running electrical systems. Letting the batteries completely drain and then not bringing them back to full charge before sale could shorten the life of the battery.

Another question, since Harris states they quit selling batteries to Thor, who is the manufacturer of the batteries in the 2016 models rolling off the lots and do they have the same issue with the converter?

[DocMike]

Dave,

I sent an email Friday evening to both Harris Battery and WFCO asking exactly what was wrong. Of course my call and email occured shortly after 5PM (I did not find out about my bad batteries until right at 4:45PM from CW) so I have to wait a weekend before they are even looked at.

As far as who is making them now, I am awaiting an answer to that before I get my replacements.

Any help will be appreciated.

Doc

[groswald]

Dave,

I've got an 8945 or 8955, not sure which. No issues so far. I visited the Axis today to put the cover on for winter. The coach batteries showed 4 lights (fully charged) after two weeks in storage.

That said, I did some pretty extensive research several months ago when I got wind of potential issues with the WFCO units. What I found were many reports of two separate problems, both related to the WFCO not switching properly between charge modes. The WFCO's are 3-stage units Bulk, Absorption, Float.

The issues repeatedly reported were:

1. Failure to enter Bulk mode. When this occurs the charge voltage never gets high enough to fully charge the batteries. Consequently they will discharge much more quickly than they should.
   
   
2. Failure to enter Float mode. This can lead to "cooked" batteries, where the electrolyte is boiled off. It will kill a battery.

I suspect that Harris is all to aware of these (and other?) issues. Hence their refusal to warranty their batteries in Thor products.

As I said, we've been good so far, but I plan to replace the WFCO with a 4-stage Progressive Dynamics unit, probably before next season. I did find our batteries were nearly dry when we picked up the coach.

I filled them up after installing a Pro-fill remote filling system. They took nearly half a gallon! Since they they've needed very little.

Regards,

Randy

[bevedfelker]

Randy,

Does the Progressive Dynamic fit in the same space as the WFCO? What about the connections and power distribution like the dc fuses and AC circuit breakers on the WFCO? Are you going to do the installation or dealer? Reason I'm asking is because if mine goes south i want to do the same thing. When I read the capabilities of the PD 9245 there is just no comparison with the WFCO. And how many amps on the PD -- 45 or 60? The PD9245CV in the General RV catalog is $199.99 (don't know what they would charge for installation - but if mine fails under the warranty period I'd tell them I'll buy the PD if they'd installbit under warranty).

[DocMike]

Gentlemen, great info. I plan to head over to the CW this afternoon or after work on Monday depending on who is in today.

My big question for CW if they put in new batteries (not Harris) do I go to them for Warranty work on the batteries or the battery company (hopefully no automatic denials for using their batteries in a Thor product).

Slightly different subject: if the RV is hooked up to shore power, a simple 110 adapator (not 30 or 50 amp) will that keep the batteries charged and the unit warm enough to prevent freezing? Under optional Equipment it lists Holding Tanks with heating pads...how can you tell if they are on and are they 12V or 110V? How about a small space heater set at 40 degrees? Wanting to delay winterizing until after the Holidays.

[DocMike]

Originally Posted by dstankov

First the disclaimer: I am not having this issue and I do not have Harris 12VDC batteries or a WFCO 8900 converter in my coach. I have 2 6VDC batteries and a WFCO 9855 converter.

Another question, since Harris states they quit selling batteries to Thor, who is the manufacturer of the batteries in the 2016 models rolling off the lots and do they have the same issue with the converter?

Dave,

CW here sells EXIDE Batteries, I looked it is not a Battery Brand made by Harris Battery Corp. I do not know what Thor currently installs as original.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by DocMike

Slightly different subject: if the RV is hooked up to shore power, a simple 110 adapator (not 30 or 50 amp) will that keep the batteries charged and the unit warm enough to prevent freezing? Under optional Equipment it lists Holding Tanks with heating pads...how can you tell if they are on and are they 12V or 110V? How about a small space heater set at 40 degrees? Wanting to delay winterizing until after the Holidays.

My father used to use a 100W light bulb in the bilge of the boat to keep it from freezing during the winter (and he kept the boat in the water year round with a bubbler system preventing the water from freezing around the boat). A properly placed light can generate a lot of heat (of course there are a couple of issues here: 1) Can you find a normal incandescent bulb now, and 2) you have to keep checking on it in case it burns out).

I had thought the heating pads are 12V (so you can winter boon-dock but between the heating pads and the furnace you wouldn't last long! LOL). I would think you don't need to run the heating pads as long as you keep the tanks mostly empty. The issue with freezing water is that it expands--thus as long as you give it somewhere to expand into (like the rest of the tank) it won't damage stuff. This is why we do something with the water system--its completely closed off with nowhere for the water to go.

Last year I completely winterized the camper in the fall then unwinterized it for our trip to FL around the holidays. Finally re-winterizing it once we got back. The only issue I had was that we had a snow storm right as we got back which prevented me from putting the cover on it after our trip. Thus our camper was covered for only the first 1/2 of winter last season.

[DocMike]

Thanks. We put a 60W bulb in the pumphouse to prevent freezing. I'd better stock up on the old incandescent bulb's next time I'm at the flea market! I wonder if you can avoid (safely) winterizing if you keep power to the unit? In a year or so I plan on building a garage to hold the Vegas, but for now here in the flatlands of NC we don't have real cold weather (at or below freezing for days at a time) until late Jan or Feb. I wonder if anyone has put together a map that shows winter temp's across the USA and where (other than FLA) you can avoid and where you can delay it.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by DocMike

I wonder if you can avoid (safely) winterizing if you keep power to the unit?

You'll still need heat of some kind if you're expecting freezing temps for more than a few hours. The hardest area I'd think to keep warm would be the plumbing in the bathroom; especially the outside wall behind and under the toilet where the outside shower is.
The simplest way would be to leave the furnace on its lowest setting (your suggestion of 40F would probably work) but I would bet you'd burn through a lot of propane. The furnace may work better than a space heater because its vented everywhere and thus would heat more evenly. Of course running it does introduce more wear on the furnace (and the aforementioned propane expense).

Keep in mind all my thoughts are with respect to Michigan fall/winter which is probably a bit more severe than yours in North Carolina. You probably can be ok as long as you keep an eye on the weather and things... (Note that if you do leave the furnace on 40F or so it won't even run until outside temps get below that point...)

Of course I don't think the furnace thermostat even goes down to 40 LOL.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by DocMike

Thanks. We put a 60W bulb in the pumphouse to prevent freezing. I'd better stock up on the old incandescent bulb's next time I'm at the flea market! I wonder if you can avoid (safely) winterizing if you keep power to the unit? In a year or so I plan on building a garage to hold the Vegas, but for now here in the flatlands of NC we don't have real cold weather (at or below freezing for days at a time) until late Jan or Feb. I wonder if anyone has put together a map that shows winter temp's across the USA and where (other than FLA) you can avoid and where you can delay it.

Temps here are knocking on the freezing door already and I have a trip to Charleston, SC being planned for December.

Heat blankets - My Forest River Class C had what they refer to as the "Artic Pack" which were thermostatically controlled 12VDC heat blankets around the tanks. I also had a furnace duct in the compartment that housed the whole house water filter and pump. When I had the "Artic" switch on the blankets came on when the temp dropped to 34 degrees and kept the tanks at that temp. The filter and pump was not warmed unless I had the furnace on.

Now a system that has worked good for me over the past few years is at this time I will connect my air compressor to the city water connection on the coach and with the compressor set to 35 PSI I will blow out the water lines by opening the faucets in the coach one-by-one until all water is blown out. Prior to doing this I will drain the fresh water tank, remove the whole house filter element and drain the hot water tank. I will also disconnect the water line for the refrigerator's ice maker.

After my last trip of the year, normally December or January, I will then do the complete winterization to include anti-freeze.

[DocMike]

Yes, I have seen pictures of Michigan winter and Lake Effect Ice - looks like hell would be freezing over. I was thinking of a small electric space heater set to 40F, maybe place it on the floor in the hallway infront of the bathroom. Open the cabinet under the kitchen sink too. I plan to disassemble the outside shower and fill that space with insulation for the winter.

Dave, yep after the holidays looks like I need to plan on doing some kind of winterization.

[groswald]

Ed,

The PD unit I was looking at (PD 4655) is a drop-in replacement and supposed to fit quite nicely. There is an associated replacement for the distribution panel as well. It has some additional functionality like lights that indicate charging mode, I think.

I will do it myself when I do it. I watched a video done by someone who did his own. It looks pretty straight forward, if somewhat involved.

Regards,

Randy

[Happily Retired]

[QUOTE=DocMike;20041]I wonder if you can avoid (safely) winterizing if you keep power to the unit?

Hey Doc,

The answer is yes, because we have never winterized our motor homes in Georgia. Has worked since 2002!!!

Our Axis stays plugged in year round with the fridge always on. Once we get close to freezing we use a space heater in the hallway leaving the kitchen sink cabinet door open and the bathroom door partway open. Only issue you may have is this will not prevent the outside shower from freezing.

We monitor the Axis temp from the house with a wireless thermometer. Always ready to use this way!! Watch out for the power bill though!! Ours is on a totally different meter, so we know that heating it in our coldest winter months cost us around $100 monthly. Worth it to us!!

[DocMike]

Happy,

I was thinking about getting a second line run in where I will be setting up a garage for the Vegas in a year or so. Might do it sooner rather than later.

Doc

[petef]

The info I have is freezing to about 18 degrees is not a big deal, the inside of your rig will be 10 degrees above outside. Keep doors open that have water lines in them. If you have unprotected water lines then is an issue, my rig they all run inside as far as I can tell.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by DocMike

....cut.... I wonder if anyone has put together a map that shows winter temp's across the USA and where (other than FLA) you can avoid and where you can delay it.

In southeast Texas I never bothered winterizing either. Days that drop below freezing for more than an hour or two are infrequent enough that on those occasions I drove the unit home and ran the heat on low setting, leaving cabinet doors open as suggested above.

Where I parked it offsite they didnt have power nor did they allow running propane or generator (I assume fear of fire and it spreading to other motorhomes).

Regarding Florida, the only time I encountered any freezing at all was during a Christmas trip while camping near Tallahasee in the Florida panhandle, and that was limited to the water hose as far as I could tell. Had I known it was going to get that cold I would have disconnected and used water from fresh water tank. Anyway, an unprotected RV would have likely frozen that night in Florida.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by petef

The info I have is freezing to about 18 degrees is not a big deal, the inside of your rig will be 10 degrees above outside. Keep doors open that have water lines in them. If you have unprotected water lines then is an issue, my rig they all run inside as far as I can tell.

Not sure about your neck of the woods but here the rule of thumb is 28 degrees for a short time shouldn't be a problem. Below 28 degrees could result in an expensive repair bill.

Also, I have found the opposite when it comes to the inside temperature of a coach. I found that in the winter, unless the coach receives direct sunlight during the day, the inside temperature can actually be a few degrees cooler than the outside temp.

A good gage of what is happening inside you coach is a half full water bottle. As the temps drop periodically check the water bottle for the formation of ice crystals.

For those that value checklists etc... here is something that CAMCO has put out on the web.

CAMMCO winterizeRV.pdf

[junior30]

I just found out tonight that I have to same issues described. I have a new 2015 four winds 31w. I have owned it about a month and it has been in the shop for three of those weeks. Walk out today to find a bad egg smell.

One of the house batteries was fried and smoking. I disconnected the power and set it to store mode. I will be calling the dealer in the morning to get this straightened out but my big concern is whether it is the charger/controller or the batteries not being maintained.

Has anyone had and further findings on this subject?