Final report harris batteries and wfco charger/converter

[DocMike]

To all who have helped me on this one.

A brief history: house batteries would not hold a charge, taken to dealership, batteries tested and are bad (dead). Told to file Warranty with Harris Batteries. Requested the official Harris Battery Warranty Claim & RMA Form. Filled it out, sent it in.

I received the Limited and Conditional Warranty Claim Report with General Provisions Paragraph A, sub paragraph checked: "Overcharging, undercharging or installing in reverse polarity, improper maintenance, allowing the battery to be deeply discharged via parasitic load, or mishandling of the battery such as, but not limited to, using the terminal for lifting or carrying the battery. Use of improper chargers with the battery will aslo void the battery's warranty."

Under Notes and Determining Factors: "The coach charger does not have enough output to charge the batteries properly when they are in a serious state of discharge."

I contacted John Klocek at WFCO in regards to the WF8900 series of Converter/Chargers and was told how to test the unit: Unplug RV from 110V source, disconnect (-) terminal from battery, wait a minute, plug RV back into 110V source with battery disconnected, turn on electrical appliances in RV, use Volt meter to test across disconnect if unit is functioning should show 13.2 - 13.6 Volts...mine showed 13.5. Therefore Converter/Charger is functioning.

Official summary from Thor and I was told okay to quote is:
"If the batteries are properly maintained/stored fully charged, this won’t be an issue.

Harris states: “The coach charger does not have enough output to charge the batteries properly when they are in a serious state of discharge.

At first look, Harris is saying our charger isn’t sufficient. What they’re saying here is that the charger won’t re-charge a battery when its dead- Sulfated dead. With normal charging and discharging cycles there are no problems. They’re copying me so I can research and explain this.

We do not cover batteries. Harris doesn’t cover dead ones."

Apparently my batteries became "Sulfated dead" by some means other than a bad charger. Draw your own conclusions as I have purchased new non-Harris Batteries from CW with a 1 year warranty handled by CW. I now close this chapter and move on to doing some RV'ing.

[jackdog]

Doc what year is your rig ????

[DocMike]

Jack, it is a 2016 Vegas 24.1 on a 2015 E350 Chassis, purchased 31May15 with under 1800 miles as of today.

Doc

[Chance]

Originally Posted by DocMike

.....cut.....

I contacted John Klocek at WFCO in regards to the WF8900 series of Converter/Chargers and was told how to test the unit: Unplug RV from 110V source, disconnect (-) terminal from battery, wait a minute, plug RV back into 110V source with battery disconnected, turn on electrical appliances in RV, use Volt meter to test across disconnect if unit is functioning should show 13.2 - 13.6 Volts...mine showed 13.5. Therefore Converter/Charger is functioning.

......cut.....

Playing Devil's Advocate:

Functioning, yes. But is it providing the amount of current Harris recommends? When tested as described above, how much current was the converter supplying?

Unless you measured that also, the converter could have been putting out 13.5 Volts at very little current -- possibly under no load. If it was under 20 Amps of load the voltage may have been different.

Do you recall what loads you had running? Unless I'm missing something, if I were Harris I would not accept this as confirmation that the batteries are being charged as recommended.

[DocMike]

Chance, I have no idea and to paraphrase my favorite childhood TV Series Star Trek "Damn it Chance, I'm a doctor not an electrician"..

With that said apparently there is quite a bit of OJT required here as an RV owner...soooo when I take it in next I will have them run the test with a load on the system. Exactly how would that be done?

Doc

[EA37TS]

I can't believe when plugged into shore power, that at 13.5 VDC (Absorption Rate) the converter is no putting out at least 3 - 6 amps which is the Harris recommended charging rate for slow charging batteries (depending on the battery rating).

If that converter is not putting out more than 3 - 6 amps there are more noticeable issues besides dead batteries. This would include, but not limited to, nothing in the coach working due to a lack of current.

Harris has a history of not honoring their warranty as evidenced by a couple of BBB complaints. In the future if I buy another RV I will add non-Harris batteries as a condition of sale.

[JamieGeek]

By the looks of the procedure it would appear they are trying to load test the unit:

Originally Posted by DocMike

turn on electrical appliances in RV

By turning on all the 12v appliances (turning on 120V ones wouldn't affect the test) they are attempting to put a load on the converter; or at least see if its output can handle everything else in the RV except for charging. If the voltage was lower than the minimum specified it would indicate that the converter was struggling simply with the max load the RV provides before even attempting to charge the battery (since it is disconnected for this test).

In the Axis/Vegas all the lights are LEDs and thus the biggest 12v load on the coach battery is probably the refer circuit board or the in-dash radio. I would think, since we do have all LEDs, that the max load the RV puts on the converter is pretty minimal compared with charging a dead battery. (Ohh during the test also extend and retract the slide and/or the awning--both of those use motors which probably draw more than all the other electronics combined!).

Still the test doesn't really check if the converter can charge the batteries at max discharge (you'd have to measure the voltage across the battery with the battery discharged and the converter charging to see if could handle the current--or use a load resistor and measure the voltage across it).

(I'm not an electrician but I do have a couple of EE degrees--yeah and I write software for a living; go figure! LOL.)

[groswald]

When I did my research, I found multiple reports suggesting the problem is not that the WFCO units CAN'T put out the right voltage, it is that they DON'T switch to bulk mode reliably and therefore cannot properly charge the battery.

Unfortunately, the test they had Doc do wouldn't test reliable battery state detection or proper mode switching. It would pretty much guarantee the converter would go into bulk mode if it could. 0 volts from the disconnected battery, and maximum load from everything on.

Regards,

Randy

[DocMike]

Ouch, this is about as difficult as debating with a statistician...you can prove just about anything with statistics.

I just want to be sure my new batteries live to see their first birthday! Looks like I will need to have a "come to Jesus" talk with my dealership. So is there a condensed test or series of test they can do to prove adequate amperage and/or voltage to charge and run the RV's 12 system?

Doc

[groswald]

Doc,

Sorry. Didn't mean to raise the blood pressure!

I can't think of any practical way to test proper operation of the converter. You'd need a recording voltmeter and ammeter so you can assess the performance over time. Ideally, you'd want the ability to vary the load more accurately than turning things on or off, and be able to simulate a battery at various charge levels.

I think if I were faced with two prematurely dead batteries I'd say lots of bad words. Raise hell with Thor and the dealer. And quietly replace the converter before I put in two new, expensive batteries.

Regards,

Randy

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by groswald

When I did my research, I found multiple reports suggesting the problem is not that the WFCO units CAN'T put out the right voltage, it is that they DON'T switch to bulk mode reliably and therefore cannot properly charge the battery.

Unfortunately, the test they had Doc do wouldn't test reliable battery state detection or proper mode switching. It would pretty much guarantee the converter would go into bulk mode if it could. 0 volts from the disconnected battery, and maximum load from everything on.

Regards,

Randy

Randy,

Where did you find the info on WFCO converters not reliably switching to bulk mode and who conducted the tests on those converters?

[bevedfelker]

So -- who did the test on the WFCO and reported the result to Harris so that they could make the reality based decision that the WFCO was a POS? Or did they in one broad brush condemn every WFCO out there -- tens of thousands -- incapable of working with their batteries? and did they determine what sulfated their battery in an RV that Doc had for a hand full of months?

In my humble opinion the Harris response is not only BS but a WTF moment as well. I'm sorry this happened to DocMike, but if it were going to happen too bad (for me) it didn't happen a few months ago. Because had I known there was a problem with Harris warranting their batteries when connected to WFCO converters -- I would have DEMANDED the dealer replace them with anything other than Harris batteries as a condition of the sale.

It really frosts my posterior that a consumer/owner is the one who has to pay this price. Thor doesn't warrant the batteries. Harris declines the warranty claim because the WFCO output is not sufficient. WFCO is going to tell you there is nothing wrong with their converter -- and here's DocMike reaching in his wallet to be able to enjoy that multi-dozen thousands of dollar play toy parked in his yard.

I really can't emphasize enough -- if you are a new prospective owner researching Thor products in this forum -- demand your dealer contingent on the sale replace the Harris batteries, or you could experience what DocMike just went through.

[NMRVer]

I think Harris is being irresponsible, they need to replace their product. Batteries less than a year old should be replaced without question (the first time). If this become a trend, then I can understand their not wanting to replace battery after battery.

[groswald]

Doc,

I must have read dozens of different threads on every RV related site I could find. I can't remember what sent me searching, and my survey was anything but scientific. What I do remember was a consistent theme that had me preparing a replacement strategy in the event we had problems.

Do I "know" if WFCO units are good or bad? I don't. They may be great and Harris is just ducking responsibility for a poor product. But, the evidence, circumstantial as it is, has me ready to drop in a PD unit at the first sign of trouble. And, I probably won't go with Harris batteries should I need to replace them either.

Thankfully we've had no issues with batteries or converter, other than the converter is really noisy when running under load.

As far as the warranty issue with Harris - consumer warranties tend to have pretty good governmental protections behind them. Many companies will try and duck their legal responsibility, but will often cave if pushed hard. Denying valid warranty claims can be seriously bad for business.

If your nerves and blood pressure are up for it, send a note back to Harris asking them when, exactly, they tested YOUR converter and found it lacking. Offer to let them test it if they want to (they won't). If they do, and don't find a problem you've got 'em. If they do find a problem you have great evidence for claims with Thor and/or WFCO. Bottom line, with warranties, the burden of proof lies with them, not you. But sometimes it's more trouble than it's worth to push it.

Oh, and I am not lawyer. This is not legal advice!

Regards,

Randy

[Chance]

Originally Posted by DocMike

Chance, I have no idea and to paraphrase my favorite childhood TV Series Star Trek "Damn it Chance, I'm a doctor not an electrician"..

With that said apparently there is quite a bit of OJT required here as an RV owner...soooo when I take it in next I will have them run the test with a load on the system. Exactly how would that be done?

Doc

A Volt meter across your battery bank tells you much, but I would also use an Amp clamp at the battery bank to confirm that the converter is able to provide its rated output when the batteries are low.

As an example, if you have a couple of 100 Amp-hour batteries that are run down below 50% during normal use, you probably want them fully charged overnight, so the converter will need to supply a lot more than a few Amps.

[DocMike]

I did receive an email this past Friday from Harris recommending that I contact one of their specialist, John Levengood and discuss an "Inteli-power DP9200 Series" converter. I will be doing that on Monday. And so the saga continues!

[RustyJC]

DRV has always used the Progressive Dynamics PD 9100/9200 series converters. Our 2004 Mobile Suites 36RE3 had a PD9180 with a PD Charge Wizard dongle, making it a 4 stage (boost, normal, float, desulfation) smart converter. The 2014 MS 38RSSA uses a PD9280 with the Charge Wizard functionality built in. In addition, I upgraded our 2000 Jayco Designer XL 3610RLTS from a Todd Engineering to a PD9155 with a Charge Wizard, so I've had 3 of these Progressive Dynamics converters.


All have been absolutely trouble-free and have kept the batteries in good shape with minimal boil-off, even though we keep our RVs plugged in when not in use. I can highly recommend the Progressive Dynamics PD9200 series converters if/when a replacement converter is required.


Rusty

[DocMike]

Chance, will do on the Voltmeter to go along with an "Amp Clamp".

Rusty, I guess I'll be making a phone call Monday to check on the PD9200.

Doc

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by DocMike

Chance, will do on the Voltmeter to go along with an "Amp Clamp".

Rusty, I guess I'll be making a phone call Monday to check on the PD9200.

Doc

Doc,

Just a thought here FWIW.

Since you already replaced the batteries why not call the new battery manufacturer and ask them if they have any issues with the WFCO 8900 series converters?

Might be interesting to get the perspective of someone other than Harris.

Again, just a thought.

[EA37TS]

FWIW

Here is some info on other manufacturers of RV batteries

Lifeline Batteries Inc.
(909) 599-7816
Lifeline Batteries - Marine & RV Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Interstate Batteries
(888) 772-3600
Interstate Batteries | The Search For Batteries Ends Here â„¢

OPTIMA Batteries Inc.
(888) 867-8462
Car, Marine, & RV Batteries | OPTIMABATTERIES

Trojan Batteries
(800) 423-6569
Trojan Battery Company