Generator will not charge house batteries

[Machinetools1]

16ACE27, Thanks for the clarification... With the shore power connected I should test the converters DC output. I believe with batteries fully charge the converter should be resting at 13.6 volts. If the batteries needed charging it will be more. With the generator running once the (ATS) switch clicks over the DC output should be the same as testing the converter with the shore power.

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by Machinetools1

Beau388, Thanks for the clarification. So the latching relay and the Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) are both under the bed. I need to watch, feel, and hear what switch sounds when I click on the USE/STORE rocker switch and when the generator clicks over via the (ATS). I enhanced your photo and I understand the picture of where your items are under the bed. Is your USE/STORE switch by the door when you come in or is it by the latching relay on the outside of the bed frame? My wiring is just as bad but I do not have the skills to clean it up as of yet.

The use/store switch is the first rocker switch of three - two position momentary switches (use/store) - patio awning (in/extend) - step (manual/auto) at eye level when you enter the the coach. High on the same kitchen cabinet wall are three single throw rocker switches that control various lights.

[Machinetools1]

When I was testing the converter on the bench. I plugged the converter into AC power and for about 3 seconds the cooling fan came on then went off. Is this by design or when the converter is plugged into AC power the fan should run constantly.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Machinetools1

When I was testing the converter on the bench. I plugged the converter into AC power and for about 3 seconds the cooling fan came on then went off. Is this by design or when the converter is plugged into AC power the fan should run constantly.

The fan only runs to provide cooling when there is a load on the converter. No amp draw equals no load.

The "float" voltage from the converter should be closer to 13.1 VDC. 13.6 VDC is the absorption mode voltage.

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by Machinetools1

When I was testing the converter on the bench. I plugged the converter into AC power and for about 3 seconds the cooling fan came on then went off. Is this by design or when the converter is plugged into AC power the fan should run constantly.

If you have a WFCO converter the fan operates on low when the current draw is over 5 amps @ 13.4 volts nominal ((67 -70 watts) and runs at high when the current draw is is greater than 15.5 amps @ 14.2 volts (220 watts) nominal. The fan is not thermostatically controlled. The fan will run for about 5 seconds on low when the converter is first powered until the current flow is established.

[Machinetools1]

These are the pictures of what my wiring looks like.

[Machinetools1]

More pictures

[Machinetools1]

O.K here is what I tested so far. All tests were done with the 50 amp shore power connected to the motorhome and to my house. I never disconnected it while testing.

One thing I thought was odd was when I got home I bench tested the converter before putting it back in the motorhome. I plugged the converter to 124 volts (This is what I was getting coming from my house) to the AC side of the converter. I checked the positive and negative terminals on the converter and it read 0 volts. I made sure I got a good connection and it still read 0 volts. I grabbed the converter and tapped it in my hand and it sounded like a small piece solder was floating around in the box. I tested the DC side again and got 13.65 volts.

Test Number 1.

Shore power on I checked the receptacle plug for the AC side of the converter. It was 124 volts. I was getting 14 DC volts coming out of the converter when plugged into the receptacle and on shore power with the USE/STORE rocker button in the USE position.

Test Number 2. With generator on and still on shore power the AC side was 118 volts and the DC side started out as 13.5 and was loosing volts. I watched it until it went down to 12.10 volts. I turned off the generator and it went back up to 14.3 volts with the USE/STORE rocker button in the USE position.

Test Number 3. With the USE/STORE button in the STORE position and still connected to the shore power the DC converter side reads14.48. Turn the USE/STORE button back on and the DC converter side still reads 14.48

Test Number 4. Turn the generator back on and with the shore power still connected and once the (ATS) switch clunked I checked the DC volts on the converter and we were back down to 12.75 and dropping.. I turned the USE?STORE rocker switch off and all the lights went out.


The red wire of from the converter goes to the bottom of the 12 volt fuse panel. Then another red positive wire comes out of the fuse panel and goes to what I think is the ATS switch. Then another red positive wire is pig tailed off of that and goes to a lug on the circuit board. The white wire from the converter goes to a lug on the bed frame. I do not see ant other breakers or fuses in the bed area.

[TurnerFam]

...some of the confusion from the original post can be added to because many of us have differing 'electrical' designs within our coaches.

for instance, my coach has a 'whole house' Inverter, NO Converter, and the Battery Charger is integrated within the Inverter itself.
Unless I am in STORAGE, I NEVER turn 'off' the Use/Store switch. There is absolutely NO need to. I want ALL the electrical options I can have, whether 12v or 120v.
Even if I am plugged in, my AGS can STILL be active, and can still START my generator, such as if the park were to lose power for an extended time. I even leave it plugged in when I 'exercise' the Generator once monthly - as the ATS( auto transfer switch ) will politely switch over to the Generator 20-30 seconds after it is running, and conversely, will switch immediately back over to Shore POwer when the Gen is stopped. Simple.

Having said all that, not every coach is that same way. Many may have smaller inverters that do NOT power all the outlets, but are only for the residential Fridge, and therefore the coach will have both the Inverter AND a Converter, which also includes the battery charger. In this type of build, the inverter is a smaller part of the equation and has nothing to do with battery charging. The Converter, like in many RVs of all types and sizes, will take care of that. In either case, though, the coach will STILL have an ATS to switch back and forth from Generator to Shore Power, or vice versa. Regardless, it DOES NOT matter if you are plugged in when you start the generator. No worries.

The original question about the Generator not 'charging' the batteries, although everything else 120v is working, such as the microwave and the air conditioner(s), mean that most likely the Battery Charger itself, or the Converter is not sending out that charging power to the batteries. An inline fuse could be at issue, between the charger and the battery bank, or the charger itself could be suspect, as while you are driving, the Charger is NOT what is charging the House batteries, but the Alternator is.

[javelin]

So I am only guessing here, because I don’t know your coach, but it looks like your jpeg 4 of 11 is your latching relay with yellow tag on it and the two fuses (controlled by the use/store switch). The red cables on bottom of the latch relay are “probably” output from converter via DC fuse panel feed through red cables maybe? When the latching relay is closed (on) the converter output charging voltage would connect through (via top connection of the latching relay) to a cable and into the black wire loom probably to go to your coach battery cubby; connect through the 50 amp breaker and then to the coach battery + terminal. Don’t trust my guesses here though I am WAGing here; not being there to trace wiring makes this tough.


From other pictures, above and to the right of the latching relay seems to be some kind of control panel (not sure if this is a Firefly related panel (gen control switch etc) as I don’t have that system in my old coach). At the bottom left of the latching relay seems to be the converter panel with, I would expect, normally a 13+vdc charging output voltage (red cables) through fed via the vertical DC fuse strip to the latching relay (and other things probably).


The two pole 50 amp AC breakers are likely fed from the output of the auto transfer switch (which I don’t see in your pictures). So either shore or gen50 Amp power feeds would switch through the transfer switch and feed the 50 amp 2pole breaker which would then feed the other 120vac breakers shown in the panel. The converter is a 15 amp breaker obviously shown.

[Machinetools1]

Javelin What other tests should I do... Read #48. I cannot see any other fuses under the bed and do you see my transfer switch since we both agree #4 picture is the latching relay. I added more pictures do you see the ATS switch?

[javelin]

Originally Posted by Machinetools1

O.K here is what I tested so far. All tests were done with the 50 amp shore power connected to the motorhome and to my house. I never disconnected it while testing.

One thing I thought was odd was when I got home I bench tested the converter before putting it back in the motorhome. I plugged the converter to 124 volts (This is what I was getting coming from my house) to the AC side of the converter. I checked the positive and negative terminals on the converter and it read 0 volts. I made sure I got a good connection and it still read 0 volts. I grabbed the converter and tapped it in my hand and it sounded like a small piece solder was floating around in the box. I tested the DC side again and got 13.65 volts.

Test Number 1.

Shore power on I checked the receptacle plug for the AC side of the converter. It was 124 volts. I was getting 14 DC volts coming out of the converter when plugged into the receptacle and on shore power with the USE/STORE rocker button in the USE position.

Test Number 2. With generator on and still on shore power the AC side was 118 volts and the DC side started out as 13.5 and was loosing volts. I watched it until it went down to 12.10 volts. I turned off the generator and it went back up to 14.3 volts with the USE/STORE rocker button in the USE position.

Test Number 3. With the USE/STORE button in the STORE position and still connected to the shore power the DC converter side reads14.48. Turn the USE/STORE button back on and the DC converter side still reads 14.48

Test Number 4. Turn the generator back on and with the shore power still connected and once the (ATS) switch clunked I checked the DC volts on the converter and we were back down to 12.75 and dropping.. I turned the USE?STORE rocker switch off and all the lights went out.


The red wire of from the converter goes to the bottom of the 12 volt fuse panel. Then another red positive wire comes out of the fuse panel and goes to what I think is the ATS switch. Then another red positive wire is pig tailed off of that and goes to a lug on the circuit board. The white wire from the converter goes to a lug on the bed frame. I do not see ant other breakers or fuses in the bed area.

I also notcied the BIM battery control manager....attaching a document on that little beast FYI. Says it allows charging of either coach or chassis from either converter or alternator. Isolates the battery strings when no charging voltage is present so one string does not discharge the other. Not sure if this link will work:


file:///E:/RV%20Purchase/Electrical%20Power%20Related/BCC%20information/BCC%20Alternate%20Coach%20Systems/BIM%20Battery-Isolation-Manager-Rev7-1.pdf


Regarding your bench power up of the converter.....loose solder inside the converter is not good. Maybe there is a cold solder joint that has dropped out and is resulting in an intermittent connection. A bigger problem could be if that loose bit shorts out something else. Also strange when the converter was re-installed and when on gen the voltage dropped off to the 12’s. I would check the 120vac side of the converter 15 amp breaker (carefully with voltmeter set to AC) to see if the 120vac (both shore and gen voltages are solid and not dropping off). If they are good.....then sounds like a flaky converter.

[javelin]

Trying the BIM document again:

[Machinetools1]

Are you talking about checking the AC volts from the breaker box at the 15 amp breaker?

In my pictures did you ever see my ATS switch?

[Machinetools1]

Got the BIM PDF file. What would be the best way to check this bad boy.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Machinetools1

Got the BIM PDF file. What would be the best way to check this bad boy.

Don't get distracted by he BIM. It is not your problem.

No DC wires go to the ATS, it is strictly an AC voltage beast.

[16ACE27]

This is what an ATS looks like:



In your pictures this box looks similar but it doesn't look like there's enough romex going to it:

[javelin]

Originally Posted by Machinetools1

O.K here is what I tested so far. All tests were done with the 50 amp shore power connected to the motorhome and to my house. I never disconnected it while testing.

One thing I thought was odd was when I got home I bench tested the converter before putting it back in the motorhome. I plugged the converter to 124 volts (This is what I was getting coming from my house) to the AC side of the converter. I checked the positive and negative terminals on the converter and it read 0 volts. I made sure I got a good connection and it still read 0 volts. I grabbed the converter and tapped it in my hand and it sounded like a small piece solder was floating around in the box. I tested the DC side again and got 13.65 volts.

Test Number 1.

Shore power on I checked the receptacle plug for the AC side of the converter. It was 124 volts. I was getting 14 DC volts coming out of the converter when plugged into the receptacle and on shore power with the USE/STORE rocker button in the USE position.


So are you plugging the converter into a coach 120vac receptacle and just measuring the converter DC output voltage while not connected to the battery string cables through the latching relay? Or did you fully re-install the converter with all cabling? What voltage are you measuring at the coach batteries at the same time......should also be 14vdc if the latching relay is closed and any breakers are closed in that coach battery charge circuit. If not 14vdc at the batteries what is the DC voltage on the main power terminals of the latching relay shown in jpeg 4 of 11 (Red on bottom connection and top cable connection?


Test Number 2. With generator on and still on shore power the AC side was 118 volts and the DC side started out as 13.5 and was loosing volts. I watched it until it went down to 12.10 volts. I turned off the generator and it went back up to 14.3 volts with the USE/STORE rocker button in the USE position.
When you turn off the gen the ATS will switch back to shore power automatically. So when on gen, converter DC output drops off. Does the converter AC input stay at 118vac when running on gen?


Test Number 3. With the USE/STORE button in the STORE position and still connected to the shore power the DC converter side reads14.48. Turn the USE/STORE button back on and the DC converter side still reads 14.48
Very odd that the converter output voltage would stay constant when not connected to batteries and also when connected to the batteries. Did coach DC lights and fans work OK? I wonder what readings you would get if you fully recharged the coach batteries to 12.6 vdc?


Test Number 4. Turn the generator back on and with the shore power still connected and once the (ATS) switch clunked I checked the DC volts on the converter and we were back down to 12.75 and dropping.. I turned the USE?STORE rocker switch off and all the lights went out.

So on gen you were getting 118vac input to converter before, but 12's on the output and the fuses are dead that feed DC lights and fans? Is the cable from the DC output of the converter connected to the small fuse panel OK? Normally the use/store switch controls battery power feed back to the fuse panel at the converter.....but you opened that latching relay with this test. So the converter output from the gen or shore should power the DC lights and fans.



The red wire of from the converter goes to the bottom of the 12 volt fuse panel. Then another red positive wire comes out of the fuse panel and goes to what I think is the ATS switch. Then another red positive wire is pig tailed off of that and goes to a lug on the circuit board. The white wire from the converter goes to a lug on the bed frame. I do not see ant other breakers or fuses in the bed area.

No that is the latching relay not ATS. The ATS should be in a metal enclosure box with gen feed and shore feed cables entering and a third cable feed output going to the AC breaker panel to feed the 50 amp 2 pole breaker.

[Machinetools1]

Found the ATS. It's the big black box on the bottom.

I also checked the 15 amp AC breaker in the breaker box. With the shore power connected AC volts were 124 volts. With the shore connection and the generator power on and after it climbed in the ac volts were 118.5 on the generator.

Do you think my converter is bad?

[javelin]

Well to me if the shore and gen AC power inputs are good and not drifting which it sounds like they are.......and the converter DC outputs are not consistent....which it sounds like they are not. I would lean to investigating the converter especially after you bench tested it and had something rattling around inside and a reading of zero output at one point. It might be a simple loose connection or bad solder joint inside somewhere causing intermittent operation. Failing that it might be worth hiring a mobile tech to help you on site. Maybe one of the other contributors can suggest a better option/solution.