RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 

Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Tech Forums > Motorhome Tech Topics
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-19-2020, 04:40 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 2,873
THOR #13932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
Okay... Here's a question:
If you have 12-volt flooded cell batteries onboard right now: is an upgrade to AGM batteries enough of an improvement to be worth it?
The agm, drops maintenance to almost nothing.
For offroad/severe movement stuff, the agm doesn't have a plate floating(we know it doesn't float. It's lead... And it's anchored..) in liquid which can break and short out. It will mount on its side for custom Mounts if space is of the essence.

If you're not going to bang it around and you can easily add water when needed, they have no value to me over a wet cell battery
__________________

__________________
Below is a link to most of my modifications either accomplished or pending.
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...n-18996-3.html

Click on my pictures then click the pop-up for a full screen zoomable picture.
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 04:47 PM   #22
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 17,814
THOR #8860
But for a person with very limited use of his hands... I assume that they'd be a pretty useful change to make.
__________________

__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 04:53 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,828
THOR #2121
You can always upgrade after they die. And who knows how long that will be or what other battery options may be affordable by then.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 04:57 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 2,340
THOR #6411
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie View Post
They are built to discharge very low and be charged back to life many times. 12 volt batteries can do that. Repeated draining will kill a 12 volt. Built very different than 12 volt batteries. Thicker plates. That is why the are used in Golf Carts.
There are a few physical differences between flooded starting batteries and flooded deep cycle of all voltages. Deep cycle have thicker lead plates and more space below the plates than starting batteries. This allows the dendrites that form during discharge to break-off and fall to the bottom of the battery case and not short out the plates. The thick plates and thicker insulators allow for a more robust battery that can stand up to golf cart, RV and boat use.

The life cycle chart applies to all flooded batteries and not only to starting or deep cycle batteries. The 50% discharge rule is for a nominal cycle life of 400 cycles. Less deep discharges result in a greater cycle life and deeper discharges shorten the number of cycles. Whether a flooded battery self-discharges or discharges by supplying current its life is shortened. The amount of discharge and the time spent in the discharge state all figure in to the batteries deterioration.
By the way E-Z-GO uses four 12 volt deep cycles or two 54 volt lithium batteries in the RXV recreational golf carts and the top of the line uses two 72 volt lithium batteries. E-Z-go uses no 6 volt flooded batteries in of their 2020 golf carts
__________________
Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
Beau388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 05:34 PM   #25
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 17,814
THOR #8860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
You can always upgrade after they die. And who knows how long that will be or what other battery options may be affordable by then.
That's what I'm figuring on doing...
I'm too cheeeep to throw away a perfectly good battery!
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 05:43 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 2,873
THOR #13932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
That's what I'm figuring on doing...
I'm too cheeeep to throw away a perfectly good battery!
Me too.
There are already bleeding edge stuff out there better than the standard lithium ion.
As they die, they'll get replaced with whatever technology I can afford.

This is why my twelve 6volt batteries are still sitting on the concrete floor(bait).
__________________
Below is a link to most of my modifications either accomplished or pending.
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...n-18996-3.html

Click on my pictures then click the pop-up for a full screen zoomable picture.
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 05:54 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,828
THOR #2121
By the time we are all using lithium ion or whatever is coming next, and finally leave 6V vs 12V in the past, the discussion will shift to, “12V versus 48V batteries”

I can hardly wait for next round.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 06:24 PM   #28
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 17,814
THOR #8860
Do you know how many times I've had to replace "Cultosaurus Erectus"?

Let technology take a break for a while...

https://www.thorforums.com/forums/at...1&d=1589909176
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fb12ba45384ddbbe024d318b47a7076b.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	131.6 KB
ID:	23805  
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 08:02 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Brand: Cruiser
Model: Georgetown 30x3
State: Idaho
Posts: 146
THOR #17441
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
Six volt is a bit of a myth.
Old school thoughts.
Laboratory tests can make the 6v ome out a little but ahead.
Real life is different.
I have 12 6v batteries ready to install.
I've decided against it.
All two six volt batteries are is one big 12 volt battery.
Others will disagree.

If you need to break up the space, the 6 volts allow you to essentially 'split' what would be a large 12v battery, in half.
People like the 6v golf cart batteries because they are deep discharge batteries. You don't deep discharge in your motorhome except by accident.
You only get one night of full heater on with two 12 volts. If you buy the good ones you get two nights with 6 v.
__________________
IDguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 08:07 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Brand: Cruiser
Model: Georgetown 30x3
State: Idaho
Posts: 146
THOR #17441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
Okay... Here's a question:
If you have 12-volt flooded cell batteries onboard right now: is an upgrade to AGM batteries enough of an improvement to be worth it?
AGM are only worth it if you plan to tip them a lot like in a boat or airplane.
__________________
IDguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 09:15 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,828
THOR #2121
AGM first started becoming more popular in RV van campers a long time ago because they could either be installed inside the coach due to lower off gassing, or outside under floor since they do not require access for watering.

Class A and C motorhomes’ adoption of AGM trailed because these larger motorhomes usually provide easy access for watering flooded batteries even though mounted outside.

In my opinion the main draw remains lower maintenance (no watering), and to a lesser degree also less corrosion around battery area. Other differences exist, but beyond higher cost to avoid maintenance, I doubt many RVers really care. Even longer expected service life affects costs of ownership.

Interesting to note that just like Class Bs started adopting AGM batteries first, they seem to be ahead of the curve now on adopting lithium ion batteries.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 09:56 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,673
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
Do you know how many times I've had to replace "Cultosaurus Erectus"?

Let technology take a break for a while...

https://www.thorforums.com/forums/at...1&d=1589909176
Umm, I really like that album. Just as you thought you'd never hear from them again, they came out with it.

Technology can only be improved as long as you continue to ask questions.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 10:04 PM   #33
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Windsport 32R
State: South Carolina
Posts: 35
THOR #17209
AGMs

It would be worth it only if the old batteries were shot and you were going to have to buy batteries anyway. Don't throw away good ones. The AGMs handle vibration better. I use Group 27 Deep Cycle Marine AGMs in my bus mainly because we boondock for two to three weeks at a time. If I were plugged in, it wouldn't matter.
__________________
TLeenhouts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 10:09 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,673
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
If you’re installing 4 batteries (other than lithium), either flooded or AGM, the practical solution is to go with 6-Volt batteries. And it has little to do with battery differences — that’s missing the point completely.

With 6-Volt batteries you’ll end up with two parallel strings of two batteries in series each. And that’s OK.

With 12-Volt batteries you'd end up with 4 strings of 1 battery each in parallel, and that’s not ideal.


If comparing similar “deep cycle” 12V batteries to their equivalent 6V, it makes very little difference. The problem is usually that 6V deep cycle batteries are compared to 12V that are very different in construction and then somehow the difference is attributed to the voltage. Basically, 6V and 12V can be different, but they don’t have to be.

In your case with 4 batteries, I’d stick with 6V regardless from a practical standpoint. I’d avoid 4 X 12-Volt batteries in parallel (lithium would be an exception).
Thank you. I think the jury's in on this one. Lithium is not on the radar until I can understand the charge profile a little better and get an inverter to match that's reliable. Lithium batteries are a little expensive to be playing around with.

I initially looked into wet cell and started to ask how I would care for the ones in the back. I can't w/o an AWS. AGM fell next in line but I don't like the sealed concept where I can't watch what's going on. I want to know when cells run low and try to figure out why. The lead cell in my forward battery (closest to the breaker) always goes low while the others remain topped off.
That's interests me.

The only reason I'm shying away from 6v is the height. I have a 9.5" ceiling and many 6v's I'm seeing exceed that height. Back to the drawing board on that aspect.

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm getting the education I believed I would out here. Take care.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 10:19 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,673
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
That's what I'm figuring on doing...
I'm too cheeeep to throw away a perfectly good battery!
Ditto and why I'm planning now.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 10:25 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,673
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLeenhouts View Post
It would be worth it only if the old batteries were shot and you were going to have to buy batteries anyway. Don't throw away good ones. The AGMs handle vibration better. I use Group 27 Deep Cycle Marine AGMs in my bus mainly because we boondock for two to three weeks at a time. If I were plugged in, it wouldn't matter.
And yet it's only rated at 92ah and it works well for you? Reason for the question goes back to what Chance cited about AH in a prior post.

My battery box is 27.5L x 14.0W x 9.5H. My goal is to pack the most efficiency into that space.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 10:59 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Long & Winding road's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2017 Axis 25.4
State: Arkansas
Posts: 2,610
THOR #12231
I switched to TWO 6V AGM's 2 years ago and LOVE THEM.

Zero maintance.

You guys missed a Major differnce in AGM and Normal Lead Acid (unless I over looked it - I was speed reading). The Discharge rate while in storage. I think the AGM's are like 1% per a month and LA are like 1% a week (with zero vampire draws on them).

See below:

Advantages of AGM

1. They are spill-proof
Unlike the traditional lead-acid batteries that freely flood their electrodes, AGM batteries have glass mats that prevent this. Additionally, it is the function of these glass mats to avoid spillage. Rather than absorbing the electrolyte, the glass mats work by holding the electrolyte in place, preventing it from spilling over, even when the battery is placed in odd positions.

2. They have a high-power output.
Because of the way that they are designed, the AGM batteries have minimal internal resistance. This, therefore, enables them to provide sufficient bursts of power when necessary, such as when one needs to start a battery. Due to this feature, these batteries respond better to loading than any other battery on the market.

3. They have a short charging time.
AGM batteries, compared to flooded batteries, charge quickly. When compared to flooded batteries of a similar capacity, the charging rate can reach five times faster with the same power source.

4. They have a longer lifespan
AGM batteries have a longer lifespan than traditional flooded batteries. Moreover, not only do they serve for a more extended period when they perform the same tasks, but they also last longer when they are not in active use. This is because self-discharging is minimized in these batteries, unlike other types of batteries, which is a huge problem. This ensures that one does not have to keep charging them after an extended period of inactivity.

5. They are durable.
These AGM batteries were originally designed to serve the aircraft industry. This means that they have a sturdy design, one that can handle conditions of intense vibrations, just like those in military and commercial aircraft. Because of this property, they are a favorite for high-end motorcycle riders and race car drivers. The sandwich construction method adopted in their design ensures that their internal components do not fall apart. Moreover, they are invulnerable to the subsequent wear and tear that may result from frequent and continuous vibrations. Furthermore, they can withstand extreme temperature variations.

6. They are unlikely to build up sulfation
Sulfation is the property of lead-acid batteries, where there is a gradual accumulation of lead sulfate crystals in the cells. In most cases, it is the cause of failure in lead-acid batteries. Sulfation mostly occurs when the battery is not fully charged, and thus the crystals continuously build up on the plates. When this process goes out of hand, it prevents the efficient conversion of chemical to electrical energy. Therefore, for other types of lead-acid batteries, it is essential to charge them every six months to prevent sulfation. However, in AGM batteries, sulfation is significantly reduced. Therefore, they can be stored for extended periods without needing a recharge.


Also when I did my research I found that ALL of the AGM 6 volts (that I looked at) were SHORTER than the 6 volt LA. SO it allowed me to fit the TWO AGM 6v in under my step of my Axis with ZERO mods. It was a tight fit but they worked fine.

The OEM Harris 12 v tip my scale at 46 # each and the Full River AGM 6 V were 73# each!

They do cost more but IMO they are worth it.

Once your 12 volt LA are on there way Out and if your NOT going the Litium route IMO 6 v AGM are the ONLY way to go.
__________________
2017 Axis / 25.4: Big Foot Levelers, Aims 1200 Watt inverter, Ceramic Window Tint, Full River AGM 6V batteries, Front Hellwig Sway bar / Rear Track Arm, Safe T Plus Steering Stabilizer, PD 4655 converter, Hard Wired Surge Guard, WEboost + WiFi Ranger, LED Headlights/Driving lights, TPMS, Surge tank, Tornado flush, Viair Compressor
Long & Winding road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 12:45 AM   #38
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 28Z
State: California
Posts: 25
THOR #3430
Angry 6v & 12v

Whatever you do with the batteries DON'T WIRE THEM IN PARALLEL!!!!
Parallel wiring sets them up for a current loop which will allow the weakest cell to discharge the strong ones. Series wiring doesn't have this feature and while one cell may be weaker than others it can't be part of a current loop unless you are using the equipment in the RV. Then the equipment is part of the current loop.
__________________
Chateau29Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 02:48 AM   #39
Site Team
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 5,382
THOR #7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chateau29Z View Post
Whatever you do with the batteries DON'T WIRE THEM IN PARALLEL!!!!
Parallel wiring sets them up for a current loop which will allow the weakest cell to discharge the strong ones. Series wiring doesn't have this feature and while one cell may be weaker than others it can't be part of a current loop unless you are using the equipment in the RV. Then the equipment is part of the current loop.
This is why, when you install batteries in parallel OR series, you always use brand new matched batteries - so all cells and all batteries are in the same condition.

BTW there is no "current loop". If you have a weaker battery it will be charged by the stronger battery until they are both at the same voltage.
__________________
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
2020 Chevy Colorado Z71 Trail Runner Alternate Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 03:17 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,673
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
This is why, when you install batteries in parallel OR series, you always use brand new matched batteries - so all cells and all batteries are in the same condition.

BTW there is no "current loop". If you have a weaker battery it will be charged by the stronger battery until they are both at the same voltage.
That's my understanding too.
__________________

__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 03:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×