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Old 03-03-2016, 04:59 AM   #1
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E-Series gets new V8 for 2017

Ford updates 2017 E-Series stripped chassis and cutaways by offering 6.2-liter V8. Since the V10 is "standard", does that make the V8 optional?


https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...s-cutaway.html


"New engine for E-Series stripped chassis and cutaway

Ford E-Series stripped chassis and cutaway models – frequently modified into ambulances, delivery vans and motorhomes – get a new engine for 2017.

The 6.2-liter V8 engine proven in Ford F-Series Super Duty trucks will be available midyear for 2017 E-Series cutaway. Customers can choose from the new 6.2-liter V8 or the standard 6.8-liter V10.

The 6.2-liter V8 engine’s single-overhead-cam design and dual-equal variable cam timing help optimize power through the entire power range. The engine is E85 flex fuel-capable – meaning it can run on unleaded gasoline or E85 (85 percent ethanol, 15 percent gasoline).

A CNG/propane gaseous engine prep package is available for conversion to compressed natural gas or propane autogas. An E-Series cutaway with the CNG/propane package can be upgraded with aftermarket upfits to bi-fuel capability – enabling it to run on either unleaded gasoline or natural gas."
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Old 03-03-2016, 06:31 AM   #2
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"Powerful and more fuel efficient." At least Truck Trend sees it as an option.

2017 Ford E-Series Chassis Cutaway Get 6.2L V-8 Option, Upgrades For Transit Lineup


What seems a little amusing is that until recently, the 5.4-liter V8 was standard, with V10 the option. Then Ford stopped making the 5.4 V8 and made the 6.8-liter V10 the new standard engine. And now it appears Ford will offer the newer and more-modern 6.2-liter V8 as an option over the V10.
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Old 03-03-2016, 12:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance
What seems a little amusing is that until recently, the 5.4-liter V8 was standard, with V10 the option. Then Ford stopped making the 5.4 V8 and made the 6.8-liter V10 the new standard engine. And now it appears Ford will offer the newer and more-modern 6.2-liter V8 as an option over the V10.
Sure the newer engines almost always are the optional ones. Eventually they will become standard when newer engines are available.

Look at how the Ecoboost engine is the optional engine in the F-150. They know that the newer engines will be the more desirable ones and thus if they are options they can be charged more $$ for and improve the bottom line (and recoup some of the design costs).

The question is: Mid-year will Thor start using the V-8 instead of the V-10 in the Vegas/Axis models (or even in the various class C models)? If they do start using the V-8 and it is more efficient than the V-10 would that allow them to drop back down to the E-350 chassis again?
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Old 03-03-2016, 01:02 PM   #4
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Since Thor builds to dealer order maybe they'll let the dealers select the standard or optional engine during the ordering process. Depending on the engine specs you might start seeing a trend similar to the single pane vs dual pane window option. For that one there appears to be more coaches ordered and sold with dual pane windows in the deep south and southwest than there are in the northeast and mid atlantic regions.
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Old 03-03-2016, 01:51 PM   #5
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Sure the newer engines almost always are the optional ones. Eventually they will become standard when newer engines are available.

Look at how the Ecoboost engine is the optional engine in the F-150. They know that the newer engines will be the more desirable ones and thus if they are options they can be charged more $$ for and improve the bottom line (and recoup some of the design costs).

The question is: Mid-year will Thor start using the V-8 instead of the V-10 in the Vegas/Axis models (or even in the various class C models)? If they do start using the V-8 and it is more efficient than the V-10 would that allow them to drop back down to the E-350 chassis again?
Longer-term, particularly in the case of the E-Series which is "supposedly" being phased out, the newer 6.2-L V8 could remain the optional engine and then Ford could replace the old V10 with a smaller engine as standard power. We've discussed the F-150's 5.0-L V8 (my preference) or maybe the 3.5-L EcoBoost you mentioned (although I think it's more expensive and not as well suited for heavy-duty motorhome use).

For years when motorhome manufacturers had a choice between the 5.4-L V8 and 6.8-L V10, they overwhelmingly chose the "optional" and higher-cost V10. Obviously that was to provide more power, not greater fuel economy. When the 6.2-L V8 becomes available, it should provide more power and fuel economy, so I expect manufacturers will go with the optional 6.2-L. I also expect it to be smoother and quieter too -- so a no-brainer?
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Old 03-08-2016, 07:52 AM   #6
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6.2L V8 12-15mpg
385hp @ 5,500rpm
405tq @ 4,500rpm

6.8L V10 9-11mpg
362hp @ 4,750rpm
457tq @ 3,250rpm

Now let's look at the #'s at normal 60mph 2,500rpm cruising speeds instead of max power.....

6.2L
140hp
260tq

6.8L
165hp
330tq

I'd say the V10 is much better suited for HD motorhome use than the high rpm lovin V8. Looking at the dyno charts shows slightly more HP but tons more TQ which is exactly what MH's need..... New technology sounds good but doesn't look good on paper.
I'd also be willing to bet that any increase in fuel economy will be offset by the need for increased axle ratio thus more rpm for the V8.....
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by BCRacing24 View Post
6.2L V8 12-15mpg
385hp @ 5,500rpm
405tq @ 4,500rpm

6.8L V10 9-11mpg
362hp @ 4,750rpm
457tq @ 3,250rpm

Now let's look at the #'s at normal 60mph 2,500rpm cruising speeds instead of max power.....

6.2L
140hp
260tq

6.8L
165hp
330tq

I'd say the V10 is much better suited for HD motorhome use than the high rpm lovin V8. Looking at the dyno charts shows slightly more HP but tons more TQ which is exactly what MH's need..... New technology sounds good but doesn't look good on paper.
I'd also be willing to bet that any increase in fuel economy will be offset by the need for increased axle ratio thus more rpm for the V8.....
Which dyno charts are you referring to? Can you copy or link them? That would be great information to have.

I'm also curious about the difference on MPGs you compared? Are those for SuperDuty pickup trucks? The difference seems large to me. I wouldn't have expected more than 1 MPG difference at most.


By the way, as far as I know, Ford has only announced the 6.2L V8 for the E-Series Cutaway and Stripped chassis, and not for the F53 chassis used on larger motorhomes which use the 3-valve V10. The 2-valve V10 on the E-Series which becomes the standard has a lower rating:

305 HP at 4,250 RPM

420 LB-FT at 3,250 RPM


I haven't seen power or torque ratings yet for the 6.2L V8 when installed in E-Series van chassis, but expect maximum power may be derated considerably. Torque on the other hand could stay the same or even go higher. There are probably limitations with van that have prevented Ford from offering more power in the past. I'd guess heat related, but that's just a guess.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:39 PM   #8
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Just my opinion here: It seems to me that Thor could easily decide to go with an optional engine, but is unlikely to offer buyers a choice of engine options. Part of the pricing strategy behind the Vegas/Axis involves limited options, which helps keep the assembly costs down. It will soon be June, and the 2017's will be coming off the line. Until then, it's all speculation.
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Old 03-08-2016, 02:12 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mr Sunshine
It will soon be June
Feels like it around here today...wooo! Sunshine..

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:51 PM   #10
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Just my opinion here: It seems to me that Thor could easily decide to go with an optional engine, but is unlikely to offer buyers a choice of engine options. Part of the pricing strategy behind the Vegas/Axis involves limited options, which helps keep the assembly costs down. It will soon be June, and the 2017's will be coming off the line. Until then, it's all speculation.
I agree on both counts. Buyers won't get a choice and indeed it's all speculation on our part.

I also agree that pricing is very important to Axis/Vegas product line. And we also know that Ford and Thor had issues with E-350 chassis because of emmissions, which forced them to use the higher-cost E-450 for now. But Thor hasn't updated their WEB site, suggesting that they may be switching back to E-350 at some point.

A quick check shows that there is a $2,000 difference in cost between E-350 and E-450 chassis; whether comparing Cutaway or Stripped chassis. And I'd bet (I'm almost 100% certain) that the cost difference to upgrade to a 6.2L V8 will be much less than $2,000. Hence, if emmissions issues with V10 remain as at present, it would seem that Thor could reduce cost by going back to E-350 with 6.2L V8 rather than keep building on E-450 with V10.

And since emmission regulations will be stricter soon, I'm not sure the V10 will be an option in the Axis/Vegas weight class for much longer anyway. So unless Thor decides to pursue multiple slides or full-wall slides for Axis/Vegas where they may need the higher GVWR, I personally expect they will go back to E-350 with the newer engine. It's lower cost that way, and should be a better product overall.
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Old 03-08-2016, 05:30 PM   #11
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If you are waiting until Ford starts putting the V8 in an E series chassis for Thor to use for the Axis Vegas line the first thing you need to determine is if Ford will continue building the E series after 2017. Their commitment to the E series is only through 2017 and that is why they have started transitioning to the Transit for motorhome chassis assemblies.

Since Ford has discontinued the E series cargo vans it may no longer be profitable to them to continue the E series in any configuration after 2017.
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:13 PM   #12
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Good, if that's the case drop the e-series. Make the class-c on the f-series chassis/cab and give me a 6.7L Powerstroke. Lack of hp/tq & single digit fuel economy are gone......
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:55 PM   #13
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If you are waiting until Ford starts putting the V8 in an E series chassis for Thor to use for the Axis Vegas line the first thing you need to determine is if Ford will continue building the E series after 2017. Their commitment to the E series is only through 2017 and that is why they have started transitioning to the Transit for motorhome chassis assemblies.

Since Ford has discontinued the E series cargo vans it may no longer be profitable to them to continue the E series in any configuration after 2017.
Dave, I'm not personally waiting for a V8 in order to purchase; although after owning two and renting many more V10s, I'm not a big fan. Don't get me wrong, they are OK and thus far very durable (haven't had any issues with any of them) but for my taste they lack refinement compared to newer engines. They are a little loud and rough, particularly at higher RPMs, which is understandable because they are a V10 rather than a V8. I haven't tested the 6.2L V8 myself, but can't imagine it wouldn't be more refined.

Right now we don't have much free time for the kind of road trips we want to take, so it's a good time to exercise patience to see if anyone builds a motorhome like what we want (small, simple, and efficient). In the mean time we are flying a lot or using the old van.

Anyway, in my opinion there is no way Ford will discontinue the E-Series after the next model year (2017 model). It would make no sense for them to make this 6.2L V8 engine an option for just one year, or the interior upgrades they just implemented. Ford did the same with the Ranger pickup -- first announced a deadline and then extended it over and over again for years. As long as there is a (profitable) demand they will keep making them.

The Transit as presently designed with its unitized much-lighter-duty frame can't replace the E-Series. Until Ford does a major upgrade of the Transit, it can't be used for motorhomes much larger than 24 feet and just over 10,000 pounds GVWR. That leaves a lot of room for the E-Series that Ford probably won't walk away from. Not unless they have a much larger Transit almost ready.
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Old 03-08-2016, 07:28 PM   #14
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Good, if that's the case drop the e-series. Make the class-c on the f-series chassis/cab and give me a 6.7L Powerstroke. Lack of hp/tq & single digit fuel economy are gone......
The starting price from Ford for similar SRW F-series over E-Series cab chassis is around $3,700. And of course the Diesel engine option would add quite a bit more. For inexpensive entry-level motorhomes that on average only get driven around 5,000 miles a year, that may limit too many buyers.

It's interesting that while the F-Series has been used for MHs for years, it's usually the higher GVWR or 4X4 applications that couldn't be met by the E-Series platform. I expect cost is indeed a big factor in this segment.

By the way, above 10,000-pound GVWR the 6.7L PowerStroke diesel is rated at 300 HP (next year it will be 330 HP). More torque but not much difference in power.
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Old 03-08-2016, 07:47 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by BCRacing24
Good, if that's the case drop the e-series. Make the class-c on the f-series chassis/cab and give me a 6.7L Powerstroke. Lack of hp/tq & single digit fuel economy are gone......
Then buy a Four Winds Super C:
https://thormotorcoach.com/fourwinds-super-c/
Its everything you want.
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Old 03-09-2016, 03:20 AM   #16
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Super C's are really sharp, I like them. But they start at 35' & $125k.....
I'd like to stay at or under 28' due to the tight back country places we go towing a trailer of off road toys. You should be able to get into a sub 28' 350 chassis with 6.7L diesel for $75k..... Not quite as classy as the super c, but another $50k is a lot of money.....
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Old 03-09-2016, 05:00 PM   #17
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Super C's are really sharp, I like them. But they start at 35' & $125k.....
I'd like to stay at or under 28' due to the tight back country places we go towing a trailer of off road toys. You should be able to get into a sub 28' 350 chassis with 6.7L diesel for $75k..... Not quite as classy as the super c, but another $50k is a lot of money.....
A price range around $75K for a compact Class C built on an F-Series PowerStroke V8 Diesel, while perhaps doable, seems too low to attract enough buyers. Those who would pay the price premium for F-Series or V8 Diesel (maybe +/-$10,000) would want a higher-end motorhome.

It does appear we are moving in a direction I personally like by going to smaller engines. I just read that GM will be replacing their V8 Diesel in cargo and passenger vans with the smaller 2.8L I-4 from the Colorado, along with an 8-speed transmission. At first it seems crazy but Mercedes has been doing it with Sprinters for a long time.

General Motors Fits 2.8L Duramax to Chevrolet Express and GMC Savana

I don't know if GM will include the small fuel-efficient diesel in Chevy Cutaways, but I certainly hope so. And I also hope Ford follows the same logic and makes the 3.2L I-5 available in the E-Series. That engine may work well for smaller Class Cs and Axis/Vegas-size Class As. Obviously the 3.2L diesel is already in the Transit, but that van is just too light-duty for what you are looking for if it includes towing.
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Old 05-13-2016, 05:22 PM   #18
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The 6.2L V8 is now officially part of the E-Series owners manual (not to be confused with larger F53 chassis).

I'm posting this because there seems to be repeated references in multiple threads wishing for improved fuel economy. Hopefully this will be a small step in that direction.

Obviously the 6.2L V8 is slightly smaller in displacement than the 6.8L V10, which in itself should help improve MPG on smaller motorhomes. Also of interest is that the newer V8 has much higher compression ratio than old V10, which also supports Ford's claim of improved fuel economy.
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Old 05-13-2016, 06:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Chance
Obviously the 6.2L V8 is slightly smaller in displacement than the 6.8L V10, which in itself should help improve MPG on smaller motorhomes. Also of interest is that the newer V8 has much higher compression ratio than old V10, which also supports Ford's claim of improved fuel economy.
Simply by being a design 10 years newer would achieve some fuel economy savings.

Remember the V-10 was designed when performance/power were more desirable than fuel economy and thus it is thirsty--heck its almost a 20 year old engine! (My first V-10 was a '99 model)
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Old 05-13-2016, 07:20 PM   #20
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Simply by being a design 10 years newer would achieve some fuel economy savings.

Remember the V-10 was designed when performance/power were more desirable than fuel economy and thus it is thirsty--heck its almost a 20 year old engine! (My first V-10 was a '99 model)
The Ford modular engine family first came out in 1991 as a 4.6L V8, so its basic architecture is now over 25 years old.

You are correct, in 1997 Ford stroked the 4.6L V8 to make the 5.4L V8, which required a taller block (deck height). They also took the 5.4L V8 and added two cylinders to make the 6.8L V10. By modern standards these engines have a very long stroke compared to bore diameter. If starting from scratch, I doubt any company would make such an engine. The V10 particularly needs a balance shaft, which V8s don't. I think Ford most likely modified the 4.6L V8 to save money in not having to develop an all-new engine.

The 6.2L V8 was designed specifically for pickup trucks and introduced in 2010, so the architecture is 19 years newer. And being a 90-degree V8 should be smoother, and hopefully not as loud. I know initially there will be resistance to change, but the 6.2L V8 seems designed for heavy duty service. It has cast iron block, and uses 7 quarts of oil (the V10 only 6 quarts).

It will be interesting to see if MPGs are improved significantly or not, but even if the same, I'd take the more powerful and modern V8 anyway. With any luck it will get better fuel economy also.


P.S. -- My first V10 was a 1997, the first year made. It only made 275 HP, which was plenty for my small and light motorhome.
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