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Old 10-30-2020, 06:50 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/03...starting-2022/

Of course the article doesn't mention any specs other than "its coming"! LOL


Jamie, more “info” coming from Ford on November 12. Who knows when van will actually arrive.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...on-nov-12.html
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:41 PM   #82
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Old 10-31-2020, 03:26 AM   #83
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Yeah I've seen the teasers...we'll find out.

Maybe it will be a splashy intro like the Mach-E or the Bronco's were (although the Mach-E's intro was a bit more traditional; the Bronco was a coordinated set of commercials across a bunch of different media outlets).
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Old 10-31-2020, 01:06 PM   #84
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One thing is for sure:
It will be...





SHOCKING!!
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Old 11-12-2020, 02:08 PM   #85
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Watch the introduction (its live now as I post this):
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Old 11-12-2020, 03:59 PM   #86
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I watched video live, and only a few features were of interest to me; but then I’m not in market for a work or delivery van.

In my opinion the limited range essentially makes it impractical for use as a camper van.

The “heavy duty” independent rear suspension may some day make it to gasoline vans. I’d guess it’s similar to what the electric F-150 will get.

The 3,800-pound maximum payload isn’t bad for an electric van — even higher for cutaway. Perhaps Ford will add more battery capacity to extend range at expense of payload.

Ford’s willingness to include a 2.4 kW version of Pro Power Onboard shows they see the need. I hope they will soon add similar system to gas Transit and E-Series cutaway vans used for Class C motorhomes.
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Old 11-12-2020, 04:40 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
I watched video live, and only a few features were of interest to me; but then I’m not in market for a work or delivery van.

In my opinion the limited range essentially makes it impractical for use as a camper van.

The “heavy duty” independent rear suspension may some day make it to gasoline vans. I’d guess it’s similar to what the electric F-150 will get.

The 3,800-pound maximum payload isn’t bad for an electric van — even higher for cutaway. Perhaps Ford will add more battery capacity to extend range at expense of payload.

Ford’s willingness to include a 2.4 kW version of Pro Power Onboard shows they see the need. I hope they will soon add similar system to gas Transit and E-Series cutaway vans used for Class C motorhomes.
Agreed. I wasn't expecting the range to be any more than 150 miles or so anyway.
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Old 11-12-2020, 04:57 PM   #88
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126 miles??
That's the theoretical range under ideal conditions.
In the real World: it'll probably be less than 70...
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Old 11-12-2020, 05:08 PM   #89
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126 miles??
That's the theoretical range under ideal conditions.
In the real World: it'll probably be less than 70...
It will get 126 miles on a nice day in the summer. Their data indicated that delivery vans, mobile service vans, etc. need about 75 miles of daily range. Thus the 126 is to allow for that 75 miles in extreme weather (e.g. Winter, hot Summer, etc.).

It isn't designed to be an RV.
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Old 11-12-2020, 05:24 PM   #90
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The range is for “low-roof cargo van variant”. I’d like to know if that’s empty or loaded, and under what EPA test conditions. City, highway, or combined????


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford
E-Transit is a smart workhorse for U.S. cities designed with insight from 30 million miles of customer telematics data to deliver the right amount of range based on fleet needs – at a price that makes it easy to switch to electric. With a usable battery capacity of 67 kilowatt-hours, E-Transit will deliver an estimated range of 126 miles in the low-roof cargo van variant. The E-Transit has a starting MSRP under $45,000 for U.S. fleet customers – and comes backed with an eight-year, 100,000-mile electric vehicle component warranty5.

It would seem that keeping cost low enough to compete with gas Transit was a high priority. If they doubled battery capacity by adding another 67 kWh, it would add about 1,000 pounds of weight, but perhaps as much as $20,000 extra in cost above the $45,000. That would make it very difficult for businesses to justify.
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Old 11-12-2020, 05:42 PM   #91
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...A van with 50 to 100 km of electric range (31 to 62 miles) will handle most daily trips...
as an owner of no less than TWO Nissan Leafs(2014/2015), both with over 60,000 miles and still with 11/12 battery condition bars, the idea of a 'work van' for local usage makes a LOT of great 'cents'... now, on the other hand, the same vehicle with an 'RV' usage may not, so much.
Range is the ultimate issue, as well as 'where' you can recharge your vehicle's battery - those two needs are what lacks within the 'infrastructure' of the U.S... we have fuel stations on almost every corner, but a 'plug in' outlet, not so much, at least not the 'fast charger' type that you would really need to make any 'travel' really feasible.

We LOVE our Leafs, whether it's my son using his to travel back and forth to UAH Campus from N of Huntsville for aerospace engineering, about 19 miles one way, or whether it's my wife using hers to travel between the various schools in our county, as a specialist teacher, sometimes 20 miles to one, 15 miles to the other, and another 15 miles home at the end of her day, etc. They both plug into a 240v 20a outlet when they arrive, and everything is good the next morning - fully charged again.

We actually DO use our Leaf, with a ~70 mile realistic range, to take trips back 'home' to our parents - which is over 230 miles away - but, of course, it takes planning, and making use of any 'fast chargers' available along the way. GA POWER does a great job in hosting many in GA, whether near a hotel, a chic-fil-a, or a Burger King. These normally DO cost to charge, but not as much as some might fear, and no where NEAR what you'd pay to fill up your car, and you're done in a 15-30 minutes depending on the level of your battery when you arrive. The Burger King in Columbus, GA actually has brand-new GA POWER dual fast chargers, both FREE. The local Nissan dealer also does, but their charge many times is not active, and they don't keep it up well. If you plan your route and arrive with no ability to fast charge, you'll end up 'slow charging' for many, many hours to get the same charge. Not a nice outcome. We've also run into several occasions where another vehicle was already plugged in, but at fast chargers no one is going to be there very long.

If campgrounds and rv parks have no issues with your charging your battery vehicle, then certainly they will be the 'go to' option for many RVs with that need, in the future, but if those folks DON'T like the electrical draw that battery charging requires, they may either turn those folks away, or increase their overnight stay cost, just as some charge 'extra' if you have TWO air conditioners - we've seen it before.
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Old 11-12-2020, 06:35 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
as an owner of no less than TWO Nissan Leafs(2014/2015), both with over 60,000 miles and still with 11/12 battery condition bars, the idea of a 'work van' for local usage makes a LOT of great 'cents'... now, on the other hand, the same vehicle with an 'RV' usage may not, so much.
Range is the ultimate issue, as well as 'where' you can recharge your vehicle's battery - those two needs are what lacks within the 'infrastructure' of the U.S... we have fuel stations on almost every corner, but a 'plug in' outlet, not so much, at least not the 'fast charger' type that you would really need to make any 'travel' really feasible.

We LOVE our Leafs, whether it's my son using his to travel back and forth to UAH Campus from N of Huntsville for aerospace engineering, about 19 miles one way, or whether it's my wife using hers to travel between the various schools in our county, as a specialist teacher, sometimes 20 miles to one, 15 miles to the other, and another 15 miles home at the end of her day, etc. They both plug into a 240v 20a outlet when they arrive, and everything is good the next morning - fully charged again.

We actually DO use our Leaf, with a ~70 mile realistic range, to take trips back 'home' to our parents - which is over 230 miles away - but, of course, it takes planning, and making use of any 'fast chargers' available along the way. GA POWER does a great job in hosting many in GA, whether near a hotel, a chic-fil-a, or a Burger King. These normally DO cost to charge, but not as much as some might fear, and no where NEAR what you'd pay to fill up your car, and you're done in a 15-30 minutes depending on the level of your battery when you arrive. The Burger King in Columbus, GA actually has brand-new GA POWER dual fast chargers, both FREE. The local Nissan dealer also does, but their charge many times is not active, and they don't keep it up well. If you plan your route and arrive with no ability to fast charge, you'll end up 'slow charging' for many, many hours to get the same charge. Not a nice outcome. We've also run into several occasions where another vehicle was already plugged in, but at fast chargers no one is going to be there very long.

If campgrounds and rv parks have no issues with your charging your battery vehicle, then certainly they will be the 'go to' option for many RVs with that need, in the future, but if those folks DON'T like the electrical draw that battery charging requires, they may either turn those folks away, or increase their overnight stay cost, just as some charge 'extra' if you have TWO air conditioners - we've seen it before.
So far none of the campgrounds I've stayed at and brought a plugin have complained about me charging the car via the 50amp plug (one complained because I had the C-Max parked on the grass not about the fact that it was charging). At a more recent campground I got a thumbs up from a staffer while charging the Bolt.

With a longer range EV it isn't necessary to charge all the time and thus campgrounds may not object so much (of course with an "EV RV" it would probably have to recharge all week LOL but then it would be plugged in anyway). On the several week long trips we've taken with the Bolt I've only had to fully recharge it once during the week and even then it wasn't really necessary as I was only down a bit below 1/2 a "tank".

Of course we haven't taken it on any epic "out West" trips (Colorado, Utah, Arizona, etc.) where things are farther apart and there is less charging available. I've researched taking it on such trips and there is a chance that its 238 mile (now 250 miles on a 2020+) range may not be sufficient for a trip out that way. Alas I won't be able to find out as our lease will be up shortly and, hopefully, we'll be replacing it with a Mach-E which can't be towed so we'll have to go back to towing an Escape for the RV trips.
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Old 11-12-2020, 06:46 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
..........

We actually DO use our Leaf, with a ~70 mile realistic range, to take trips back 'home' to our parents - which is over 230 miles away - but, of course, it takes planning, and making use of any 'fast chargers' available along the way. GA POWER does a great job in hosting many in GA, whether near a hotel, a chic-fil-a, or a Burger King. These normally DO cost to charge, but not as much as some might fear, and no where NEAR what you'd pay to fill up your car, and you're done in a 15-30 minutes depending on the level of your battery when you arrive. The Burger King in Columbus, GA actually has brand-new GA POWER dual fast chargers, both FREE. The local Nissan dealer also does, but their charge many times is not active, and they don't keep it up well. If you plan your route and arrive with no ability to fast charge, you'll end up 'slow charging' for many, many hours to get the same charge. Not a nice outcome. We've also run into several occasions where another vehicle was already plugged in, but at fast chargers no one is going to be there very long.
As the owner of two Prius’s, I’m sold on Hybrid technology
So in your example above...
- at 50mpg, 230 miles is about 4.5 gallons of gas
- $10 total cost (in Georgia)
- and I can get there in less than 230 minutes, no battery anxiety, no waiting at charging stations

Also, with an 11 gallon tank, I can go 460 miles and still have nearly 90 miles to spare.

Hybrid technology could potentially work for an RV (as it currently does for Delivery trucks)
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Old 11-12-2020, 07:16 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
as an owner of no less than TWO Nissan Leafs(2014/2015), both with over 60,000 miles and still with 11/12 battery condition bars, the idea of a 'work van' for local usage makes a LOT of great 'cents'... now, on the other hand, the same vehicle with an 'RV' usage may not, so much.
Range is the ultimate issue, as well as 'where' you can recharge your vehicle's battery - those two needs are what lacks within the 'infrastructure' of the U.S... we have fuel stations on almost every corner, but a 'plug in' outlet, not so much, at least not the 'fast charger' type that you would really need to make any 'travel' really feasible.

We LOVE our Leafs, whether it's my son using his to travel back and forth to UAH Campus from N of Huntsville for aerospace engineering, about 19 miles one way, or whether it's my wife using hers to travel between the various schools in our county, as a specialist teacher, sometimes 20 miles to one, 15 miles to the other, and another 15 miles home at the end of her day, etc. They both plug into a 240v 20a outlet when they arrive, and everything is good the next morning - fully charged again.

We actually DO use our Leaf, with a ~70 mile realistic range, to take trips back 'home' to our parents - which is over 230 miles away - but, of course, it takes planning, and making use of any 'fast chargers' available along the way. GA POWER does a great job in hosting many in GA, whether near a hotel, a chic-fil-a, or a Burger King. These normally DO cost to charge, but not as much as some might fear, and no where NEAR what you'd pay to fill up your car, and you're done in a 15-30 minutes depending on the level of your battery when you arrive. The Burger King in Columbus, GA actually has brand-new GA POWER dual fast chargers, both FREE. The local Nissan dealer also does, but their charge many times is not active, and they don't keep it up well. If you plan your route and arrive with no ability to fast charge, you'll end up 'slow charging' for many, many hours to get the same charge. Not a nice outcome. We've also run into several occasions where another vehicle was already plugged in, but at fast chargers no one is going to be there very long.

If campgrounds and rv parks have no issues with your charging your battery vehicle, then certainly they will be the 'go to' option for many RVs with that need, in the future, but if those folks DON'T like the electrical draw that battery charging requires, they may either turn those folks away, or increase their overnight stay cost, just as some charge 'extra' if you have TWO air conditioners - we've seen it before.

The statement you referred to was about a hybrid with only 50~100 kilometers of electric-only range (31~62 miles), and not an electric like a Nissan Leaf. That changes everything. When I go on long trips, I often drive 600 to 800 miles daily until I get close to my destination, or home on way back. That may change some as I get older or buy a larger camper, but I can never see myself stopping every 100 miles to charge.

A hybrid or plug-in may make more sense, but fuel economy on highway may be worse, so a straight gas engine will suit motorhomes much better for foreseeable future.

Notice there’s been a lot of speculation about Ford making a range extender generator available for upcoming F-150. Speculation is that it may be located in bed just behind cab.

For a motorhome, I’d settle for a stand-alone 48V high-capacity alternator that can charge a large lithium house battery bank in relatively short period. For actual driving on highway, a simple gas engine will get me there as fuel efficient as a comparable hybrid.
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Old 11-12-2020, 07:57 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by taylorbob1 View Post
As the owner of two Prius’s, I’m sold on Hybrid technology
So in your example above...
- at 50mpg, 230 miles is about 4.5 gallons of gas
- $10 total cost (in Georgia)
- and I can get there in less than 230 minutes, no battery anxiety, no waiting at charging stations

Also, with an 11 gallon tank, I can go 460 miles and still have nearly 90 miles to spare.

Hybrid technology could potentially work for an RV (as it currently does for Delivery trucks)
I like the idea of a hybrid that uses a really small gas engine to power the electric motors and charge the batteries. Just enough engine to spin some really big alternators.
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:00 PM   #96
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I like the idea of a hybrid that uses a really small gas engine to power the electric motors and charge the batteries. Just enough engine to spin some really big alternators.
Agreed!
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Old 11-12-2020, 09:10 PM   #97
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If it takes 100 HP to power a motorhome at steady highway speed, then installing a “really small gas engine” to power alternators that then power electric motors would be very inefficient. A small engine would have to work much harder and would end up using more fuel.

Most motorhomes burn more of their fuel on the highway, not in city traffic where hybrids shine. And making matters worse is that many motorhomes don’t get driven enough miles annually to justify the higher initial cost based on fuel savings.

Hybrids make sense to me mainly as a means of recharging house batteries in minutes rather than hours. Fuel economy gains while driving isn’t going to make enough of a difference to justify added costs.
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Old 11-12-2020, 09:36 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
If it takes 100 HP to power a motorhome at steady highway speed, then installing a “really small gas engine” to power alternators that then power electric motors would be very inefficient. A small engine would have to work much harder and would end up using more fuel.

Most motorhomes burn more of their fuel on the highway, not in city traffic where hybrids shine. And making matters worse is that many motorhomes don’t get driven enough miles annually to justify the higher initial cost based on fuel savings.

Hybrids make sense to me mainly as a means of recharging house batteries in minutes rather than hours. Fuel economy gains while driving isn’t going to make enough of a difference to justify added costs.
On my C-Max when it would switch to "hybrid" mode (it was a plugin and thus had an extra 35 miles or so in the battery before switching to "hybrid") on the highway it wouldn't run the engine all the time. It would run the engine at its most optimal speed and charge up the battery to go a few miles (at the same time propelling the car). At some point it would shut off the gas engine and use the electric drive until the battery was depleted to some predetermined state.

Thus driving down the highway was a repeat cycle of gas engine running for a bit followed by electric only propulsion followed by gas engine etc. To eek out the highest mpg from the gas engine as possible (e.g. run it at its most efficient speed regardless of the vehicles speed).

Of course in winter on the highway it would just run the gas engine all the time for heat.

My preference would be for something more like the F-150's hybrid powertrain: An engine large enough to move the RV around that would only require a bit of boost now and then from the electric motor and include 10 or 20 kWh of battery that could be used while travelling or while parked to power the RV (and use the main engine to recharge it--pretty quickly).
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Old 11-12-2020, 10:52 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
If it takes 100 HP to power a motorhome at steady highway speed, then installing a “really small gas engine” to power alternators that then power electric motors would be very inefficient. A small engine would have to work much harder and would end up using more fuel.
That is not true. Why do you think Ford's 2.7 liter EcoBoost engine gets such good fuel economy- because they are small displacement and work relatively hard.

Gasoline engines which are throttled are always more efficient if smaller for a given horse power output. Throttling a big gasoline engine is inherently inefficient.

But you do have to consider engine life for a small engine. I doubt that the EcoBoost would last for 200,000 miles while putting out 100 hp continuously. Diesels can do it but they have heavy blocks and a fuel that lubricates to help with wear.

The foregoing makes me wonder why Ford came out with their new 7.3 liter V8 for E350, E450 and F53 chassis. It would seem that a 4-5 liter engine would be more efficient, even at 100 hp, perhaps with a mild turbocharger. Maybe engine life is more important. Nothing beats cubes for engine life.

David
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Old 11-12-2020, 11:40 PM   #100
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. So that's why my little Smart with it's 900cc turbocharged triple is so stingy with fuel...
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