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Old 04-27-2022, 10:27 PM   #41
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One of many reasons hybrid powertrain make more sense at present. There is no need to charge at all, require no charger, and can be owned by all regardless of where they live.

Additionally, range is typically improved even though most have smaller fuel tanks. And lastly, the added initial cost can be paid for in fuel savings by owners who actually drive their vehicles a significant distance annually.

Motorhomes of all sizes could benefit from hybrid powertrain, particularly if they included Atkinson cycle gas engine for higher efficiency. I have nothing against BEV motorhomes, but they wouldn’t work for us. A hybrid, even a mild hybrid, could be a great fit if done right.

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Old 04-28-2022, 05:00 AM   #42
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I agree. A Prius fuel mileage is typically 45% - 50% better than a comparable non-hybrid ICE car of the same class... especially city driving.

Having a realistic 5 to 6 mpg improvement in fuel economy for a motorhome is a big deal... both in expense and increase in driving range between fuel stops. Although I have yet to drive enough in one day to warrant a fuel stop.
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Old 04-28-2022, 11:53 AM   #43
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The biggest problem with hybrids: finding the space to support 2 different power sources...
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Old 04-28-2022, 12:59 PM   #44
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I'm yet to see a business case where it makes sense to go hybrid if the EPA regulations are not there.

As I said, Mazda 3 can do 45 - 50mpg on highway w/o any electric help and it don't even have CDA (yet) and other tech. that will improve mpg even further... @ a cost of $21K for a brand new car which is bigger than a Prius which cost $3K more (base models)....

As a witness that my first statement is true, one just need to compare Hybrid car sales number with their non hybrid counterpart sales numbers....

Why the consumer is not taking advantage of all the "benefit" of the hybrid savings???

My bet is that the importance, for 95% of consumers, of MPG is overstated and people much more prefer power and torque than mpg when buying a brand new vehicle.
And people that buy used cars prefer to avoid the potential costly maintenance of an hybrid...

People that really need mpg because they drive a lot are few and people that really need mpg because of budget can't afford brand new cars(even less more expensive Hybrids)!!!!

Now if Hybrids are designed to deliver the power and torque that current consumers desire (currently at least 200hp and 250ftlb torque), then that will be way more expensive and make the business case even more difficult for hybrids ...

Obviously someone will point that most consumers don't buy cars based on "business case" which is true, so in this case why buy Hybrid anyway? Why pay more to have less?

That being said, nothing beat the "because I want" clause...
In that case no sin is assigned ....
There is a guy in you tube that put a V8 in a Tesla.... He wanted... he got it!
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Old 04-28-2022, 01:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
The biggest problem with hybrids: finding the space to support 2 different power sources...
Not much of a problem when there are dozens of models on the road and many more on the way over next few years.
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Old 04-28-2022, 02:05 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad View Post
I agree. A Prius fuel mileage is typically 45% - 50% better than a comparable non-hybrid ICE car of the same class... especially city driving.

Having a realistic 5 to 6 mpg improvement in fuel economy for a motorhome is a big deal... both in expense and increase in driving range between fuel stops. Although I have yet to drive enough in one day to warrant a fuel stop.

Yes, the “city” rating improves around 50% or more, though “highway” rating typically improves much less. Much depends on vehicle type (weight and aerodynamics), and how well the powertrain is engineered. The most experienced companies like Toyota are using Atkinson cycle engines in hybrids with compression ratio up to 14:1, so fuel economy improves significantly on the highway as well. Other hybrids like Ford F-150 don’t improve highway rating very much.

Below are some examples. The Toyota Camry is one that improves a lot by going from standard to hybrid. City MPG can be up to 80% higher, and highway up to 35% higher, though 10 to 30 percent highway is more common.

How much a hybrid motorhome would improve would have to be tested, keeping in mind motorhomes are driven on highways much more than cities.
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Old 04-28-2022, 05:06 PM   #47
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My wife's work commute is roughly 20,000 miles per year... nearly all highway driving. This is almost an hour commute each way... double the national average.

She averages 35 mpg in her non-hybrid. With gasoline @ $3.80 per gallon, that's $2,171 in fuel for 20,000 miles.

Averaging 52 mpg in a hybrid, with the same $3.80 per gallon gasoline, it's $1,462 in fuel for 20,000 miles.

That's a difference of $709 saved for a year's worth of gasoline.

With an all-wheel drive SUV, it would take quite some time to recoup the price premium for the hybrid. By trying keep the price in line with her current non-hybrid, she would likely have to sacrifice many creature comforts... including the all-wheel drive.

Maybe that's why the hybrid segment for passenger cars hovers around 2% of sales.

Now, four years ago, had we gone the Tesla Model 3 route (spending about $10,000 more when new), at this point we would have STILL only been about half-way to the break-even point - - even with the "free" gasoline!

IF you do the math...
I'm coming to the conclusion that "being green" is more a condition found behind one's ears than an environmental/economics mindset...
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Old 04-28-2022, 05:15 PM   #48
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You forgot to add in the environmental costs of adding that hybrid system for no reason other than adding that hybrid system.

I think we as a group have pretty well debunked the
Add solar to your rv at any cost
One sided nonthinking array of singular thought
that used to spew on this forum.

We now know it adds almost nothing unless you hardcore boondock, without a generator and you refuse to start your motorhome to recharge the batteries.
Generator and daily-ish drivng of RV?
Solar is an expensive joke.


I THINK we made some headway there.
I'm wondering if we're making any on this

electric vehicles are universally the shizzle

Stuff.
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Old 04-28-2022, 05:41 PM   #49
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The hybrid I had was a GE issued company car and they did it for the double rebate they got at the time for around 15k per vehicle.

Should I buy one

I have to add the new vehicle property tax which would be $1500 the first year or more depending on the deal and would be similar for an ICE

Charging is going to be around .16 kw here now with the recent increases and winter penalty due to Texas bombing the grid. On the road much higher cost to charge at the public stations.

Due to distance I have to plan on a stop enroute to recharge so dinner/shopping/whatever to make use of the down time, so more cost

I would pay cash however if you were to finance or lease the vehicle, then add another 7-10% to the cost with interest and fees

Many states have seen 14% or higher electric rates already this year. Several states have very high KW rates and only a few with hydro have decent low rates

Some subsidies are still out there and are payed for by the taxpayers, not so much the greenies of which many pay no income tax

Then we have the road tax issue, a few states add a fee at registration however most EV's to date do get a free ride on the public funded roads.

Duck and Chateau summed it well, why would I pay more just to say it was an EV?
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Old 04-29-2022, 01:47 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad View Post
I agree. A Prius fuel mileage is typically 45% - 50% better than a comparable non-hybrid ICE car of the same class... especially city driving.

Having a realistic 5 to 6 mpg improvement in fuel economy for a motorhome is a big deal... both in expense and increase in driving range between fuel stops. Although I have yet to drive enough in one day to warrant a fuel stop.

When I sold my Volt it had a lifetime average of 252 mpg. It was almost perfectly suited to my commute. 22 miles each way with an employer who let me charge for free while I was working. Fully charged each way with enough charge to go out for lunch. I only bought gas about three times a year. Changed oil once in the 30 months I had it. I bought it when they were not selling well so it was pretty well discounted and I got the $7,000 tax credit. I believe my out the door price (2014) was $21,000. Trouble was it was a damn boring ride. When I retired I bought a Mustang. Fuel economy isn’t everything….
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Old 04-29-2022, 01:57 AM   #51
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Amish farmer washing his classic Mustang...

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Old 04-29-2022, 03:44 AM   #52
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If people on this forum were serious about 'protecting' the planet from the evils of the ICE, they would not be using RECREATIONAL vehicles in the first place.
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:05 AM   #53
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Protecting the planet opens up a very large and encompassing subject

Some are of the mindset that fewer people is the answer

Others think innovation is the key

Some think the elite should decide what is best for everyone

Reality is that the Earth is constantly changing and has been since creation

Weather and catastrophic history debunks greeies theories in a heartbeat

Most people don't have a clue that it requires heat units, moisture, and green house gasses to grow food

Burning fossil fuels is way down on the list of the worlds problems

Education has been replaceed by opinions and feelings driven by agendas
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:18 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by lwmcguir View Post
Protecting the planet opens up a very large and encompassing subject

Some are of the mindset that fewer people is the answer

Others think innovation is the key

Some think the elite should decide what is best for everyone

Reality is that the Earth is constantly changing and has been since creation

Weather and catastrophic history debunks greeies theories in a heartbeat

Most people don't have a clue that it requires heat units, moisture, and green house gasses to grow food

Burning fossil fuels is way down on the list of the worlds problems

Education has been replaceed by opinions and feelings driven by agendas
Very well said, sir!
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Old 04-29-2022, 07:51 PM   #55
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My wife's work commute is roughly 20,000 miles per year... nearly all highway driving. This is almost an hour commute each way... double the national average.

She averages 35 mpg in her non-hybrid. With gasoline @ $3.80 per gallon, that's $2,171 in fuel for 20,000 miles.

.....cut....

Returning to data on other options, the following shows the cost to “upgrade” (if a person sees it as an improvement) a small auto to hybrid is in range of $3,000 per unit. Based on 20,000 annual miles and $3.80 per gallon for gas, the payback is around 4 years. I tend to keep vehicles a long time, so I would definitely get my money back and then some, but only if drivetrain did not add significant costs in other ways.

It is interesting to note that some new vehicles are starting to be offered as hybrid only, with no standard drivetrain being offered. I suppose it can be expected that if enough buyers embrace a new optional technology, it will soon become the new standard — much like automatic transmission, power steering, air conditioning, etc.

Anyway, discussing electrification solely on basis of lowering monetary costs seems pointless to me. If a person believes there is no need whatsoever to reduce GHGs, then just do nothing new. I’m perfectly OK with that. I’m personally guilty of burning a lot of gas, so I’m not going to preach to anyone about reducing CO2 from their tailpipes.

Having said that, I’m interested in discussing new ways to reduce my own CO2 contribution while still getting to travel and camp. I just need more efficient ways to do these activities.

P.S. — What I would like best about a hybrid motorhome is what it could do towards electrification of the “house”, much like Ford F-150 hybrid pickup has Pro Power Onboard.
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Old 04-29-2022, 08:04 PM   #56
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For what it’s worth, my “opinion” on pure electric BEV vans is that economic justification will be challenging. Parcel delivery in large cities is as good a case as there is for electric vans, and even so companies like Rivian are struggling to meet commitments. Amazon and Ford have both been affected.

Practical BEV campers are a ways off.


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Old 05-03-2022, 04:53 PM   #57
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Today GM quit supporting one of their electric vehicle.
Some are 7 years old, many are 5 years old, a few holdovers are 3 years old.
Your choice for battery support is now
Junkyards.

Now THAT'S a dedication to solving the problem they say their problem car cures.
100% trash now. No chance of hitting the secondary market as used.

But
That's ok
Because
We can't send those Damn electrics to third world countries, like we do the $2,000 250,000 mile ice vehicles.

Ice vehicles on the road for 25 years, electrics crushed so we can spend 250% energy to
Recycle
20% of the car.

Go team.
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:07 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
Today GM quit supporting one of their electric vehicle.
Some are 7 years old, many are 5 years old, a few holdovers are 3 years old.
Your choice for battery support is now
Junkyards.

.....cut.....
Care to elaborate which vehicle this applies to?
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Old 05-03-2022, 06:00 PM   #59
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Sales numbers Volt vs Camaro.... or... how big brother decides what automakers should produce (and you should buy):

On the year GM stopped producing the Camaro, it was selling more than the best year Volt ever had...
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Old 05-03-2022, 06:47 PM   #60
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Big Brother didn’t cause Camaro sales to drop to 1/4 of what they were a few years earlier. Buyers have been moving away from cars/sedans and towards SUV-type of vehicles for years. Camaro with very low profile, practically no trunk or back seat compared to SUV was just the wrong product for buyers. It may be a good car but with limited mass appeal. It’s amazing the Mustang is still around, though even that “brand” was made into SUV/CUB.

The Volt and pretty much all other plug-in hybrids have not really caught on as many auto “experts” predicted. As a commuter the newer BEV options are much better and cheaper, and for long trips fuel economy was not great. It tried to straddle the fence and failed for most buyers.

GM is doing better with other electric vehicles, and seems to be moving away from plug-in hybrids. In my opinion both of these vehicles failed because they couldn’t compete in market due to their designs and or value.
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