Cold weather camping

[Bill Johnson]

I was reading old posts about camping in cold weather and some people asked if they could us automotive antifreeze in the gray and black tank. I thought about it and if the antifreeze doesn't hurt the seals it would be better than the pink stuff when camping. I could see winterizing using the pink stuff because no one will be using it till spring and the frozen pink stuff wouldn't affect anything it would just melt in spring but if someone was camping their drains would be frozen until the rv heat melted it. The tanks without heat the pink stuff would be a big frozen chunk by the valves stopping them from working. Automotive antifreeze only in the black and gray tank wouldn't freeze and the valves would function like summertime. Just wondering what fellow campers would think

[Campnjoe]

I am not 100 percent sure I get what you are talking about. I don't think rv antifreeze, the pink stuff, will freeze solid until it's like -50 degrees. I know it will start to form crystals much higher.

As for camping in the winter I would hope your coach is outfitted for it such as heated compartment or in our case, heat pads for the tanks so they won't freeze.

[MJC62]

Automotive antifreeze, ethylene glycol is highly toxic. As little of an ounce ingested by a human can kill. Granted nobody is ingesting gray or black tank wastewater but the rv's waste does end up in a sewer treatment plant or a septic system. Does the wastewater treatment plant filter out the antifreeze? Does a septic system? I don't know. Eventually everything that goes into a sewer ends up in the environment. Reading a Material Safety Data Sheet on a name brand automotive antifreeze it states it is highly toxic to fish at low levels. Me, I like to fish so I would find an alternative to auto antifreeze in my RV tanks.
A wrap of electric heat trace wrapped around the drain valves should do the trick.

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by Campnjoe

I am not 100 percent sure I get what you are talking about. I don't think rv antifreeze, the pink stuff, will freeze solid until it's like -50 degrees. I know it will start to form crystals much higher.

As for camping in the winter I would hope your coach is outfitted for it such as heated compartment or in our case, heat pads for the tanks so they won't freeze.

Not true the pink stuff freezes in the +20's, it's temperature that it will burst a line is -50

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by MJC62

Automotive antifreeze, ethylene glycol is highly toxic. As little of an ounce ingested by a human can kill. Granted nobody is ingesting gray or black tank wastewater but the rv's waste does end up in a sewer treatment plant or a septic system. Does the wastewater treatment plant filter out the antifreeze? Does a septic system? I don't know. Eventually everything that goes into a sewer ends up in the environment. Reading a Material Safety Data Sheet on a name brand automotive antifreeze it states it is highly toxic to fish at low levels. Me, I like to fish so I would find an alternative to auto antifreeze in my RV tanks.
A wrap of electric heat trace wrapped around the drain valves should do the trick.

In my younger days all automotive magazines said to put it down the drain because the water treatment plant would remove it. I'm sure now they don't want anything down there. The RV magazine I was reading talked about a person(him) taking a shower and the shower filling up with water because the pink stuff was frozen solid in the drain. If I remember from years ago the pink stuff is toxic if not washed out well they assume that it's non toxic if flushed. I bet if someone drank it from the bottle it would be toxic. I need to look that up again

[EA37TS]

https://www.rvzone.com/rv-antifreeze-vs-car-antifreeze/

Keep in mind that auto antifreeze contains other toxic chemicals for inhibiting rust.

[Bob Denman]

There's more to it than just keeping your poop from freezing.
The water line hooking to the sinks and showers will come the weak link in the chain; and they DON'T like the automotive anti-freeze products...

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by Bill Johnson

In my younger days all automotive magazines said to put it down the drain because the water treatment plant would remove it. I'm sure now they don't want anything down there. The RV magazine I was reading talked about a person(him) taking a shower and the shower filling up with water because the pink stuff was frozen solid in the drain. If I remember from years ago the pink stuff is toxic if not washed out well they assume that it's non toxic if flushed. I bet if someone drank it from the bottle it would be toxic. I need to look that up again

Propylene glycol (CH8O2) is a commonly used drug solubilizer in topical, oral, and injectable medications. It is used as stabilizer for vitamins, and as a water-miscible cosolvent. Propylene glycol has been used for over 50 years in a large variety of applications.

[Travelin' Texans]

Originally Posted by Bill Johnson

I was reading old posts about camping in cold weather and some people asked if they could us automotive antifreeze in the gray and black tank. I thought about it and if the antifreeze doesn't hurt the seals it would be better than the pink stuff when camping. I could see winterizing using the pink stuff because no one will be using it till spring and the frozen pink stuff wouldn't affect anything it would just melt in spring but if someone was camping their drains would be frozen until the rv heat melted it. The tanks without heat the pink stuff would be a big frozen chunk by the valves stopping them from working. Automotive antifreeze only in the black and gray tank wouldn't freeze and the valves would function like summertime. Just wondering what fellow campers would think

Why would you spend $15-20+ per gallon for automotive antifreeze rather than $2-3 for rv antifreeze?
RV antifreeze will freeze into a pink slushy at about 10 degrees below freezing, the key is it does not expand like water when frozen so won't burst pipes. If rv antifreeze freezes solid enough to burst pipes or plug drains then it's too damn cold for me to be rving.

[16ACE27]

Has anybody thought this antifreeze in waste tanks through?
The RV antifreeze (RVAF) by itself starts freezing at 20 degrees Fahrenheit and is "burst proof" to -50 degrees.

So the stuff in the waste tanks starts freezing at 32 degrees and since the smallest pipe diameter it sits in is 1.5" it takes a long time to freeze it hard enough to worry about busting pipes.

So how much RVAF do you put in a 30 to 50 gallon tank to protect it? And how much protection does it provide?

Obviously, if the tank is empty and you pour a gallon in you're good to go down to -50 degrees for as long as you want.

But now take a couple of showers and what's the dilution ratio and effectiveness of that RVAF in the grey tank? How about when the grey tank is near full? Is it really making any difference at that point?

It's like the solar assisted hybrid RV thread: You can do it, but does it provide any realistic benefit?

RVAF is made to be used undiluted in static piping like supply lines and drainage water traps.

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

There's more to it than just keeping your poop from freezing.
The water line hooking to the sinks and showers will come the weak link in the chain; and they DON'T like the automotive anti-freeze products...

I'm not saying putting automotive antifreeze in any water lines, that would be suicide

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by Travelin' Texans

Why would you spend $15-20+ per gallon for automotive antifreeze rather than $2-3 for rv antifreeze?
RV antifreeze will freeze into a pink slushy at about 10 degrees below freezing, the key is it does not expand like water when frozen so won't burst pipes. If rv antifreeze freezes solid enough to burst pipes or plug drains then it's too damn cold for me to be rving.

RV antifreeze does freeze solid but doesn't expand so it won't break anything. I'm just thinking of campers in the winter not being able to open the valves in the winter to empty the black or gray tank and if the tank has pink stuff in it and you add water or poop the pink stuff isn't made to be mixed with anything so if water goes into a gray or black tank that has a gallon or so of the pink stuff in it to protect it from freezing will now freeze and expand because water is in there now

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Has anybody thought this antifreeze in waste tanks through?
The RV antifreeze (RVAF) by itself starts freezing at 20 degrees Fahrenheit and is "burst proof" to -50 degrees.

So the stuff in the waste tanks starts freezing at 32 degrees and since the smallest pipe diameter it sits in is 1.5" it takes a long time to freeze it hard enough to worry about busting pipes.

So how much RVAF do you put in a 30 to 50 gallon tank to protect it? And how much protection does it provide?

Obviously, if the tank is empty and you pour a gallon in you're good to go down to -50 degrees for as long as you want.

But now take a couple of showers and what's the dilution ratio and effectiveness of that RVAF in the grey tank? How about when the grey tank is near full? Is it really making any difference at that point?

It's like the solar assisted hybrid RV thread: You can do it, but does it provide any realistic benefit?

RVAF is made to be used undiluted in static piping like supply lines and drainage water traps.

Just like you say any pink in the black or gray tank is useless if it's mixes with anything and it will be a pink block of ice in the 20 degree area where as automotive antifreeze could be added to the tanks if you figure X number of gallons of gray water to antifreeze will protect to say -34 degrees. Pink antifreeze can't do anything in the tank because it will freeze and if mixed with water will expand and break things.

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

There's more to it than just keeping your poop from freezing.
The water line hooking to the sinks and showers will come the weak link in the chain; and they DON'T like the automotive anti-freeze products...

I went to a website and checked the affect on all different rubbers and plastics and it turns out that automotive antifreeze is better on seals than the pink antifreeze. So this makes it the better choice for winter camping, just don't drink it

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by Bill Johnson

I went to a website and checked the affect on all different rubbers and plastics and it turns out that automotive antifreeze is better on seals than the pink antifreeze. So this makes it the better choice for winter camping, just don't drink it

Perhaps you misunderstood the point I was trying to make...
The water feeds aren't the issue: it's what happens to you if you drink from from them; while using automotive anti-freeze...
So yeah... don't drink the stuff, and you'll be okay!

[ador]

I have read some people use space heaters at the basement, bear the fresh water tank, blank and grey tanks. Is that an option for 18-20 degree temp? We heading out to Williams,AZ this weekend. About 45 degree during day. But it may drop to 18-20 overnight. I understand the pipes are the main issue. How about slightly turning on the faucet? Water pump OFF?

Just thinking of ways how to make it for 3 nights, and not damaging anything. We are willing to use the CG shower and bathrooms if we have to.

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by ador

I have read some people use space heaters at the basement, bear the fresh water tank, blank and grey tanks. Is that an option for 18-20 degree temp? We heading out to Williams,AZ this weekend. About 45 degree during day. But it may drop to 18-20 overnight. I understand the pipes are the main issue. How about slightly turning on the faucet? Water pump OFF?

Just thinking of ways how to make it for 3 nights, and not damaging anything. We are willing to use the CG shower and bathrooms if we have to.

Are there any exposed pipes under the unit. The cabinet doors could be left open so the warm air could get inside. I have an outside shower that comes out where my tanks dump, that could be a problem on mine in the cold weather but A heat tape would probably keep everything warm enough. On this old house they say when a pipe freezes it creates thousands of pounds of pressure and it a faucet is closed it will break the pipe at the weakest point. If the faucet is open there isn't any pressure. When I winterize I leave nothing in the pipes and if a little is still in there all the faucets are open so no pressure can build up. The only place that might break could be the plastic connecters in the PEX otherwise PEX can take a lot of cold. There are many YouTube videos where they take PEX with connectors full of water and freeze them overnight and the PEX isn't broken in the morning after thawing out

[ador]

Bill, we have the same exact unit. What would you do if you were to camp for few nights where temp will drop to 18 degrees overnight? When we purchase our unit, I know it doesn't have an Arctic pack. However, we were told there is an air hose connected from our house heater that will blow hot air to the basement. I looked at the schematics and I did not see any. A quick call to THOR today confirmed that. What is a heat tape?

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by ador

Bill, we have the same exact unit. What would you do if you were to camp for few nights where temp will drop to 18 degrees overnight? When we purchase our unit, I know it doesn't have an Arctic pack. However, we were told there is an air hose connected from our house heater that will blow hot air to the basement. I looked at the schematics and I did not see any. A quick call to THOR today confirmed that. What is a heat tape?

I crawled under mine and I don't see any Pipes out in the open You could try putting a thermometer in by the out door shower and see what the temperature is now then run the heat and see if the temperature increases. They make a wire that has a thermostat built in. It can be wrapped around things and if it gets down to a certain temperature it turns on and goes off when it warms up. My kitchen sink pipes lay on the floor from the pump to the kitchen sink

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by ador

Bill, we have the same exact unit. What would you do if you were to camp for few nights where temp will drop to 18 degrees overnight? When we purchase our unit, I know it doesn't have an Arctic pack. However, we were told there is an air hose connected from our house heater that will blow hot air to the basement. I looked at the schematics and I did not see any. A quick call to THOR today confirmed that. What is a heat tape?

I hope it does heat the pipes going to the bathroom that would be great and if the heat goes into the outside shower area I could use it in the winter. I'm going to Minnesota at Christmas it would be nice to know the water would work. Right now were taking the car up. Let me know how it does in the cold