Help! difference between Triton V10 and V11 and the cost of center console upgrade

[Lloyd]

Great thread!
I would like to add to it, but I believe everything has been stated quite well.
Like was stated previously----GO POP!

[kmhappel]

Having looked at all the links provided, I am truly happy. I had already decided on steering stabilizer, front and rear sway bars, camco 6500 grill, and some form of leveling blocks. I then you-tube searched until I got the following graph in my profile album (pictures for posts) that mirrors what you have so kindly provided here. (tried to insert picture but failed).

http://www.thorforums.com/forums/mem...icture819.html

So I need to know:
(1) Does the 2019 Vegas 27.7 have a tracking bar built in and does it need help?

(2) Is there an important difference between Roadmaster and Safe-T bar stabilizer and sway bars?

(3) Sumi springs seem a good idea, anyone think differently?

(4) Never considered shocks, is it important to upgrade? In Europe (Netherlands) I had Koni shocks on a car and they were outstanding but very stiff.

(5) How flat are rv parks etc. Do you buy a lot of levelers, have vision of no storage space left over. Does anyone have an argument for the best brand? Beginning to think I am going to create storage tubs wherever I can find a space underneath.

(6) Has anyone tried larger tires. Can 17 inch fit. Unit seems very low. Is it a center of gravity issue? Seems a good deal of transmission and mileage issues would be improved.

(7) Tire pressure units and tire repair kits, preferences, things to miss?

AS always thanks....

[gmtech16450yz]

Originally Posted by kmhappel

Having looked at all the links provided, I am truly happy. I had already decided on steering stabilizer, front and rear sway bars, camco 6500 grill, and some form of leveling blocks. I then you-tube searched until I got the following graph in my profile album (pictures for posts) that mirrors what you have so kindly provided here. (tried to insert picture but failed).

http://www.thorforums.com/forums/mem...icture819.html

So I need to know:
(1) Does the 2019 Vegas 27.7 have a tracking bar built in and does it need help?

Don't worry about a track bar, it's not really necessary in this application.

(2) Is there an important difference between Roadmaster and Safe-T bar stabilizer and sway bars?

Safe-T and Roadmaster stabilizers are very similar, main difference is internal vs. external springs. I have the Safe-T and it works. Hellwig sway bars are cheaper than Roadmaster and they work as good or better.

(3) Sumi springs seem a good idea, anyone think differently?

Sumo springs on the front help, I have them on mine.

(4) Never considered shocks, is it important to upgrade? In Europe (Netherlands) I had Koni shocks on a car and they were outstanding but very stiff.


Koni shocks on the E350's-E450's are stiff also. Bilsteins are WAAAYYYY better than stock.

(5) How flat are rv parks etc. Do you buy a lot of levelers, have vision of no storage space left over. Does anyone have an argument for the best brand? Beginning to think I am going to create storage tubs wherever I can find a space underneath.

Most "RV" parks are pretty level. I'm not a huge fan of onboard levelers. I actually took the "Stabilizer" off the back of my Vegas because it was pretty much worthless and just drug on everything. (Yes, I know it's not a leveler.) Now if I had a big huge diesel pusher and stayed in places for weeks or months on end, I'd probably want a leveling system, but on my Vegas I don't see it as a necessary expense and weight to carry around.

(6) Has anyone tried larger tires. Can 17 inch fit. Unit seems very low. Is it a center of gravity issue? Seems a good deal of transmission and mileage issues would be improved.

Stock tires on the Vegas are cr@p. It was literally the first thing my wife wanted to "mod". As I was doing all the other work on our Vegas, she kept saying "You ARE going to get rid of those stupid little tires aren't you?" Here's what I did... http://www.thorforums.com/forums/f27...gas-14108.html
(I don't recommend doing what I did to my rig for you though.) The taller tires make a HUGE difference. This guy does 17" swaps, they're expensive though and I'm not a fan of the tire choices. It's an easy way for somebody that doesn't want to go crazy on a wheel/tire swap like I did but wants taller/better than stock... https://ricksontruckwheels.com/

(7) Tire pressure units and tire repair kits, preferences, things to miss?

I think I included a link to the tire pressure monitor system I have. There are plenty of others, it's pretty much personal preference or go by the reviews/sales numbers. If you put good tires on it, your chances of blowouts are greatly reduced. As far as tire repair on the road, just buy a plug kit and tool and you'll be able to take care of most little nail/screw issues.

AS always thanks....

As always, these are just MY opinions. lol. Hope they help. Don't forget about doing a front end alignment after you get all the suspension stuff done. A proper alignment will also make a gigantic difference.

[kmhappel]

Once again thanks... I am really delighted. Heck buying the right motorhome, in this case, has meant finding the right community...

So gmtech…. Why wouldn't you recommend doing your out of the box. It's clear that the fender is simply shortened and screwed over the enlarged cut out. The wheelbase increase should be a huge advantage in handling. Maybe some mud flaps to limit collateral road damage. I agree with your wife, it also looks great.

The extra $15K we saved on the purchase will get all the upgrades and then some. I don't know anything about tire choices but if you don't like them then I would tend not to a'priori (oops twenty five cent word, lol) trust the advice. Meaning I like the improved clearance. Do you notice the wheelbase change. I would guess you do.

[gmtech16450yz]

Originally Posted by kmhappel

Once again thanks... I am really delighted. Heck buying the right motorhome, in this case, has meant finding the right community...

So gmtech…. Why wouldn't you recommend doing your out of the box. It's clear that the fender is simply shortened and screwed over the enlarged cut out. The wheelbase increase should be a huge advantage in handling. Maybe some mud flaps to limit collateral road damage. I agree with your wife, it also looks great.

The extra $15K we saved on the purchase will get al the upgrades and then some. I don't know anything about tire choices but if you don't like them then I would tend not to a'priori (oops twenty five cent word, lol) trust the advice. Meaning I like the improved clearance. Do you notice the wheelbase change. I would guess you do.

So you're telling me you'd be ok with taking a sawzall to your new motorhome? I thought I was the only one on the planet that retarded! Certainly if that level of modification doesn't worry you, then by all means go for it! The wheel/tire swap (IMHO) had no adverse effects, only amazing, noticeable improvements. It is a little scary though and I will NOT be responsible if your front wheels fall off or explode the front bearings! So far we have about 7k miles on the wheel/tire swap with no problems. And yes, the additional ground clearance with the taller tires and the rear stabilizer jack taken off has already proven itself helpful in a dozen situations so far.

edit-

If you like the idea of the taller tires, you don't have to do the zero offset front wheels like I did, simply put the same tires I bought on your stock wheels. They "should" fit ok on the front end without doing any cutting or modding. Worst case would be you'd have to move the inner plastic wheel well pieces up, they're just sheets of plastic. And you should be able to sell the brand new take-off tires for a few hundred too.

[kmhappel]

Again thanks,

So the option of sawing the fiberglass is the least of the worries. Specially since the fender flair is so neatly able to be used after the remodeling. I don't think it means anything to the functional vehicle.

The issue of the bearing load seems to be whether the wheel bearing can carry the 4.5 inch wider leveraged load. The original tires were LT225/75Rx16E or 225mm wide by 168mm from tread to hub. Your new tires were 235/85/16. 235mm wide by 199mm from tread to hub. The 31 mm is the 1.5 inch height difference. They are only about 1/2 inch wider, so it must be the SRW hub that causes the leveraged load.

Rebuilders must know the load ability of the front axle and bearing. I am looking. What are the specs of the SRW wheel or hub you used?

[kmhappel]

Found a Rickson estimate for the e450:

225/75R17.5 Toyo M143Z's load range "G" tires all the way around, cost about $3,200. includes mounting, harmonic balancing and shipping, also included an unmounted spare tire.

BTW on rv.net I found the following report, "I was able to get new wheels to allow for the correct offset and went to 235/85r16. They had 20% more weight capacity over all, istr. It slightly improved fuel economy and like you my "clock" is now wrong by similar amounts.

I had no blow outs but my tires had 66000 miles on them and were ten years old.

The extra height really helped with the tail dragging on ramps at gas stations. It is now a rare occurrence." [url]https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26783432/srt/pa/pging/1/page/5.cfm [\url]

seems to validate your move...

[gmtech16450yz]

Here's the front wheels I used. (Notice the picture they're using! They did ask and I did say they were welcome to use my pics.)

https://buytruckwheels.com/collectio...alcoa-aluminum

Max load 3750 max pressure 110psi Wheel weight 21lbs.

Here's the ones I used for the backs...

https://buytruckwheels.com/collectio...ished-in-drive

Max load 2780 max pressure 95psi. Wheel weight is 20lbs.

So the front wheels I used are lighter than the stock steel wheels and stronger than both the stock steel wheels and the rear Alcoa wheels that you would normally use for the fronts. The wheels I used for the front obviously are strong enough for single rear wheel use. They're also a little wider, 7" vs. 6" for stock steel and rear Alcoa's.

Yeah, there were a few people that went crazy in my wheel swap thread saying how reckless I was being and that I was going to kill myself and others in the process. Lol. This ain't my first rodeo. Hundreds of thousands of people have put WAY heavier wheels and tires with huge offsets on these front hubs, along with putting wheel spacers on every imaginable vehicle. What I did is basically like putting a wheel spacer on a stock hub, but actually even safer than that because it's a steel spacer made by Ford. The front hubs and bearings on these E450's are extremely strong and I believe they can easily handle what I've done.

Not only that, I went over exactly what I was doing with the big wig Engineer/tech at Buytrucktires.com that has a ton of experience on wheel swaps and he actually said it shouldn't be an issue.

[gmtech16450yz]

Originally Posted by kmhappel

Found a Rickson estimate for the e450:

225/75R17.5 Toyo M143Z's load range "G" tires all the way around, cost about $3,200. includes mounting, harmonic balancing and shipping, also included an unmounted spare tire.

BTW on rv.net I found the following report, "I was able to get new wheels to allow for the correct offset and went to 235/85r16. They had 20% more weight capacity over all, istr. It slightly improved fuel economy and like you my "clock" is now wrong by similar amounts.

I had no blow outs but my tires had 66000 miles on them and were ten years old.

The extra height really helped with the tail dragging on ramps at gas stations. It is now a rare occurrence." [url]https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26783432/srt/pa/pging/1/page/5.cfm [\url]

seems to validate your move...

My wheels, caps, lug nuts and nut covers were $1300 shipped and 6 tires were $1675 shipped. So $2975 for a what I believed was a better solution than the Rickson route.

BTW, I saw the "clock being off" comment and realized I forgot to mention that if you tune the V10, which you REALLY need to do, the speedo and odometer can be dialed in perfectly to the taller new tires.

And yeah, the load rating on the larger XPS Rib tires are a fair amount higher than what you have on there stock. That's what I meant about the blowout chances being drastically reduced. The stock tires are pretty much at their max rating. The larger Michelins have a healthy margin between actual front end weight and tire max weight ratings.


Just found this... haha...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BocLO3Mlbwo/


.

[kmhappel]

How great to have the opportunity to look at so many views from the members here and extra thanks to gmtech for hanging it all out with me...

The GCWR is 22,500lbs. 8,000lbs is the tow weight. The chassis GVWR is 14,500 lbs. The Ford specification is a front axle load of 4,900lbs. and a rear axle load of 9,600lbs. A standard 225/75R16 tire with 10 ply E load range construction is rated at 2,469lbs. at 80 psi. That means the front tires provide 4,938lbs of load capability. The rear axle tires provide 9,876lbs. Probably just fine if you don’t max out he load.

Upgrading to a larger tire like a 17.5 inch diameter wheel with a 14 ply G load rating brings the problem of tire price and finding replacement tires. That’s why Rickson is a thousand dollars more expensive than a 235/85R16 tires with Alcoa wheels.

The next issue is the front wheel for a 235/85R16. The use of a SRW wheel places the tire outwards from the standard placement by 4.5 inches and the increase in the wheelbase is probably useful. But if it requires changing the exterior, Thor may find that a warrantee ending action. Don’t have an insurance opinion yet either. However, using the Alcoa rims for the rear and the matching front rim that also centers the tire over the bearing (providing a 4.5 inch offset like the delivered wheel eliminating the wider wheelbase but also eliminating (as gmtech mentioned) the bearing leverage and the need to trim the wheel well.

These Michelin 235/85R16 are also E load level tires and will provide 3096lbs. each at 80 lbs. The matching Alcoa front and rear wheels or hubs will deliver 2780lbs. at 95psi. This yields 5,560lbs front and 11,120lbs rear. What is also clear is that the larger tires will also fit on the Thor supplied wheels/hubs. What is also clear is that the tire ratings are 6,192 front and 12,384lbs. rear. The tires are going to work much less hard at full load.

I think the larger tires are important for the clearance they provide. As the Thor Vegas 24.1 Manual relates, the replacement of the rear struts with wheels is advised to stop them digging in when the tail end hits a rapid change in rise. I happen to live in an area where I will have to navigate a number of hills with sharp changes in rise.

The Alcoa SRW wheel looks great and wheelbase is also a huge plus but requires more thought for me. I am going to see what the load rating of the standard Thor wheels/hubs are. The larger tires may fit them just fine.

If tuning means 5-star tuning and the like, I think it is the single best thing that can be done for performance but it is illegal in CA (The Ford engine is detuned for emissions control reasons).

[10scDust]

Back to the V-10 engine.
I believe Ford called it a Triton because each cylinder has three valves, two of them being intakes, and the other the exhaust valve.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by 10scDust

Back to the V-10 engine.
I believe Ford called it a Triton because each cylinder has three valves, two of them being intakes, and the other the exhaust valve.

Original Triton engines only had 2 valves, and the engine in the E-Series only has 2 valves. Only the V-10 in the F-53 has 3 valves.

[kmhappel]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the commentary and advice. I thought you might be interested in what we decided.
The primary goal is to be able to drive the Vegas with the least physical effort and greatest safety. The secondary goal is to travel with the greatest ride control.

We will get larger tires to simply reduce the probable ground clearance problems we would have where we live and bottoming out over curbs on the road.

We are going to get a Roadmaster steering stabilizer to mitigate the front tire blowout danger and steering fatigue, front and back sway bars to mitigate body roll and side wind interactions, front and rear SumoSprings to further mitigate sway, improve handling and keep the unit from sagging under load (important because of larger tires – other choice is to add leaf spring blades).

We will upgrade the shocks to Bilstein Motorhome Heavy Duty shocks to reduce bounce. If the Thor doesn’t have a track bar we will get one.

For the rest, we are going to take a driving course and have started the you-tube videos.

Thanks so much for all the advice....

[gmtech16450yz]

Hey Ken, here's a couple more of my thoughts fwiw...

There are a lot of fun and good things in California that are illegal. lol. DO THE TUNE!!! I have a feeling you actually might want to do it yourself instead of buying the 5 Star tune. That's a whole 'nuther story though, we can get to that later.

I think simply getting the larger, better tires in the stock wheel configuration is a PERFECT solution. A lot of the stuff I do in a way falls into that "Don't try this at home" area. haha. Meaning I'm ok with risks and amount of work that others would think are crazy. For instance, I build my own engine calibrations. They're more aggressive than I would do for others simply because I monitor 40 different engine parameters every time I drive. Without that monitoring, you have to be much more conservative. The front wheel swap I did is a perfect example, I "monitor" lug nuts, front bearings and suspension parts. Most people don't want to bother with the follow up that it takes to keep some modifications "safe". That's perfectly fine.

I'm going to somewhat strongly suggest two changes to your shopping list though...
Skip the "track bar". I'm telling you it's not needed. Also skip the rear Sumo springs and instead just put airbags on the back. Sumo springs in the back are about 10% effective vs. airbags in helping with ride, load and ride height. I actually would rather put airbags in the front too over Sumo springs so that you have some way of controlling ride height in front. I'm not a super big fan of HOW the front airbags on the market are designed, but I have Firestones in the front and back of my Vegas and feel they are vital for ME.

You obviously are a smart guy and don't mind spending time doing your homework and are willing to spend the money required to make your new rig safe and effective. You WILL end up happy with your RV with those skills and attitude. I'm also more than happy to help people with those skills and attitudes.

edit... I have to make clear MY thoughts on "sag in the rear" and rear ride height. I would absolutely NOT recommend adding leafs to the rear suspension. Adding an airbag system is a FAR better approach for many reasons.

edit 2... I think you need to start a "build" thread with a better title so others can benefit from what we're both saying here. There's already some really good info in this thread but the original premise and title wouldn't make people come in here to learn about tuning and suspension.

[kmhappel]

First let me say that I have a prejudice as a geezer, anything that I can do to make use and maintenance easier has an advantage. My goal in adding an air-bag or a SumoSpring is to lessen road-feel in the vehicle's ride and to insure the rear-end clearance remains constant when the motorhome is loaded close to its GVWR.

Air-bags are adjustable and can be tuned to any load you are running. They require air-fill points or an automatic pressure regulation system. Even the SumoSpring representative acknowledged that if the vehicle is being used with a high degree of load variance, air-bags win the day. He also said that everything that follows is also true of an air-bag system except for ease of use and maintenance.

I asked the SumoSpring representative how he would specify SumoSprings for my Thor Vegas 27.7. He replied that there are two different ways he would go depending on my priorities. He sees RV's as relatively constant weight vehicles compared to, say, a delivery truck with the same E450 frame.

The viewpoint issue is really the rear axle specification. For the front the representative specified the SSF-106-40 soft blue urethane bump stop replacements (500lb @50% compression solo mount). He sees it reducing sway and road-impact shock when the front axle is moved to close to the point where it would contact the factory supplied bump stop. Since it starts acting several inches before the axel would hit the factory supplied bump stop, it can have a significant effect in slowing and smoothing the onset of road and terrain impact transfer to the vehicle. The basic benefits are ride smoothing, road noise reduction and a reduction in loss of control events.

The rear axle would be specified differently depending on the primary effect desired. The SSR-106-40-1 (2600lbs@50% compression Maxim mount) is for significant bounce and jolt smoothing in the coach and provides resistance to tail-end sag at full loads. The alternative, the SSR-106-54 (5400 lbs capacity @ 50% compression) is actually carrying a significant part of the load and is acting much more like a shock absorber and much less like a ride smoother, especially at lower loads. It could significantly raise the stance at full load.

I can understand the preference of air bags for those who understand and utilize the performance capability of their motor home’s design and its modifications. I want to use the design and modification capability to make up for our physical limitations as drivers, maintainers and emergency repairers of the motor home while underway.

The SumoSpring is a true install and forget product. While in Europe, I used to design urethane chemistry for applications including automotive. The material is impervious to most forms of damage. The SumoSpring is like a never-puncture tire; and, in this case, a never puncture and never adjust air bag.

I am going to go with the SSF-106-40 and the SSR-106-40-1 in the rear. I think the group of modifications I have found and evaluated as a result of this forum will make our time on the road vastly more safe and comfortable. While we are doing the whole range of improvements , all of the mods together cost much less than the savings we made by not listening to the initial dealer misinformation as a result of the community comments on this wonderful forum.

Thank you all. See you on the road. I am making a 27.7 manual like the one that brought me here and a modification guide for the Axxera console units as a way to give back. Thnxs once again.

Ken and Lynne Happel

[gmtech16450yz]

Somebody did some homework! haha.

Valid conclusion for your situation. Don't ever feel like you have to justify what you decide to do, everyone has their own preferences and criteria for their wants/needs. You're absolutely right, Sumo springs are an "install it and forget it" mod. I totally understand that part of the decision, airbags take a little more "work" to use. For me, having total control of the ride from the drivers seat via an onboard compressor, air tank, gauges, valves and airbags is well worth the "work". I'm not you and you're not me though, and that's perfectly fine. lol.

I do have to say though in case anyone else is reading this comparing Sumo springs to airbags... You can't really compare a vehicle suspended by urethane vs. a vehicle suspended by air bags. There's a reason why airbags have been used widely on all different types of vehicles for decades and Sumo springs are kind of a niche product that isn't widely used outside of this application. Sumo springs are really only glorified bump stops. Bump stops, in the real sense of vehicle engineering, are a "last resort" device, not meant to be an active suspension device. They do not and can not work as well as leaf or coil springs or airbags. Since vehicles have had some sort of spring and some sort of bottoming device like bump stops, when the suspension gets to the point of contacting the bump stops, you lose control of the spring part of the suspension. Yes, of course I realize that Sumo springs are much more compliant than rubber bump stops, but they aren't going to have anywhere near the same spring rate and travel that the regular spring part of the suspension has.

Which actually just made me remember something about my Vegas... The axle loading on the front was different from side to side. I don't remember how much or which side was heavier, but I realized it BECAUSE OF the Sumo springs I had installed. When going over speed bumps, the front end travel wasn't even side to side. As the suspension compressed, I could feel one side "bottoming" before the other. I looked at the Sumo springs and sure enough, one was almost against the I beam and the other was about an inch above it. So of course if the weight on both axles isn't even, the Sumo springs will hit at different times. Since the Sumo springs are a pretty "hard" feel compared to the coil springs, you (or at least I) can feel it.

What I did... even though I'm not a total fan of the "airbag inside the coil spring" design, I added Firestone airbags to the front. (Talking about tools in the other thread, I actually installed them in the middle of our 6500 mile trip from California to New York and back! I ordered them while we were in Iowa and had them shipped to our daughters house in New York. I installed them in her driveway with the tools I had onboard in the Vegas. lol.)

I did the airbags for two reasons, the biggest reason was camber. With the added track width the front wheel swap created, it put more leverage on the front suspension, which resulted in the front end being a little lower than ideal. When the Ford twin I beam suspension is too low, negative camber goes too far. The twin I beam suspension has the drawback of camber traveling in an arc through the suspension travel, which makes proper ride height critical. Adding the airbags meant I could raise the front end to get the camber back in line. (Yes, I aligned it in my daughters driveway too. lol.)

The other reason I did the airbags, to get the suspension up off the Sumo springs so it could actually use the coil springs and airbags instead. The result? Greatly improved front suspension action, ride, and wheel alignment/tire wear.

So Ken, I TOTALLY understand your desire for an easier "install it and forget it" solution. The Sumo springs will give you that. My solution was/is a lot more work. Just realize that there are other pros and cons that a Sumo spring salesman may not mention or even realize. My advice for you personally and your specific application... Have your Vegas corner weighed before you decide. If your front end loading is different side to side and you can't "fix" it by moving your loads around, you may find that you'll be able to feel those Sumo springs unevenly. The rate vs. travel of that urethane is very short/steep and they can end up causing an uneven suspension feel. (You can put washers under the Sumo springs to even out the gap between the I beams, but you can only add about 1/2" before you run out of bolt threads.) And if your ride height isn't correct, the only way you're really going to fix it is with airbags. When you align these front suspensions, you want a lot of caster and since they effect each other, camber is hard to get right if the ride height isn't right.

You clearly want to make informed decisions, that's why I typed out this novel, to give you and others information that might help in decision making. Hope it helps!

[JamieGeek]

Note that since the 27.7 floorplan has two slides on the drivers side (the only Axis/Vegas coach with 2) it is very likely that it is a bit heavier on that side and thus does lean a bit.

Although I would suspect that the 25.6 floorplan also suffers from some drivers side lean with that big slide.

[kmhappel]

Thnxs JamieGeek...

So how do I weigh the vehicle dry on each wheel and get the load differential?

[Bob Denman]

"Geezers get to be geezers by being careful and having lots’a luck"

The only reason that I've lived this long, is because "Circumstance" has simply forgotten to kill me along the way...

[kmhappel]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

"Geezers get to be geezers by being careful and having lots’a luck"

The only reason that I've lived this long, is because "Circumstance" has simply forgotten to kill me along the way...

The x-factor... cracking up over here!