High-tech generator-less motorhome

[Long & Winding road]

Boy you guys are thinking outside the box. Yeah the Ford v10 is much quieter than the Onan Genny.

Might have to kick the idle some when the A/C unit first kicks on but since its a big v10 it should not get lug down like a one cylinder Genny would.

But a very intresting soluton.

Im sure it would burn a gallon or two of fuel every hour VS a half a gal. So thats another factor.

Plus like you said is it good to run the v10 for 8 hours standing still at same RPM? What bout the tremendous heat from the Cat? All of the wear and tear on the engine. Must quicker and cheaper to pull out the genny and repair or replace.

[Long & Winding road]

Have you seen the "fuel cells" for RV's yet? I read about one the other day. Very quiet, used propane (I think) so very clean. But only generated like 500 watts of power (so very limited). But who knows in a few years they might get that cracked up to 2500 watts (maybe enough for a small AC unit?).

Or if the RV industry used a super quiet Honda 2500 watt genny plus a fuel cell together? That way you can use one or the other or BOTH at the same time depending on your power demand?

[saddlesore]

No gen set?? NOT Interested in that ......nope nope nope..
Our genny has 4,000+ hrs (PowerTec, Kabota diesel, 12.5 k)... no issues, just doing the service as needed...
note.... have 200 gal fuel tank)

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Long & Winding road

....cut....


Might have to kick the idle some when the A/C unit first kicks on but since its a big v10 it should not get lug down like a one cylinder Genny would.

But a very intresting soluton.

Im sure it would burn a gallon or two of fuel every hour VS a half a gal. So thats another factor.

Plus like you said is it good to run the v10 for 8 hours standing still at same RPM? What bout the tremendous heat from the Cat? All of the wear and tear on the engine. Must quicker and cheaper to pull out the genny and repair or replace.

These systems aren’t meant to operate like standard generators, so we shouldn’t compare their operation directly line-item by line-item.

Think of it as the engine-driven alternator charges the batteries as needed when engine is running. The battery bank then powers the inverter which can power anything depending on its size. The point is that the engine and alternator don’t have to produce enough power to run anything directly, since the battery bank will make up the difference, like the air conditioners’ start-up surge. The V10 and alternator don’t have to be running at all as long as batteries have enough charge and capacity.

I doubt anyone would want to run the vehicle engine steadily just to power an inverter to then run an air conditioner. A V10 can burn about 0.8 gallons per hour at idle, so could go through ~ 8 or 10 gallons overnight. That’s too wasteful and expensive. On the other hand, if a vehicle engine can charge batteries in 1 to 2 hours enough to run air conditioner all night, then efficiency may be similar or even better than running a generator. That’s where these systems are trying to go.

And as mentioned before and in other threads, idling laws could prohibit idling a V10 all night, which is another problem.

[Bob Denman]

All that we need are two components:
Alternators with a much higher output
batteries that can store a whole bunch more of the alternator's best efforts.

How long will it take for the technology to catch up to us?

[Radioradio]

The engine compartment would get pretty hot as it depends on air movement besides what the fan could possibly provide. Pretty sure most RV and home generators run at a constant 3600 rpm as part of the 60 cycle ac mechanism.

[Chance]

When charging batteries there is no need for alternator to produce electrical power at 60 cycles per second, so engine speed is not as limited. An alternator can charge with engine at 1000 or 3000 RPMs. It’s similar to inverter generators where speed can be varied in order to meet load at higher efficiency. With systems like Volta engine RPMs are even more flexible than an inverter generator because batteries are a buffer to handle surges.

Battery, charging, and inverter technology has existed for years in electric and hybrid autos — high cost remains major issue. If viewed as a luxury not requiring justification, then you can buy one now.

[Muggs]

It would be nice to have a quiet RV. In our circumstance we are loading up for a 3 day, two night stay at a drag strip. We will need generator power for battery charging (racecar), A//C, kettle for hot water, microwave, TV/video games, refer and hot water.

At the track we use a Champion 3500w RV ready generator mounted on open racecar trailer. Depending on outside temps, it will run anywhere from 12 to 16 hours on 3.6 gallong of gas. When real hot or high demand, I run the internal Onan. I also fill RV tank on way in. In 2.5 years and 18,000 miles the Onan only has 341 hours. An educated guess would be Champion has upwards of 3000 hours. Best $300 investment I have ever made.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Long & Winding road

Boy you guys are thinking outside the box. Yeah the Ford v10 is much quieter than the Onan Genny.

Might have to kick the idle some when the A/C unit first kicks on but since its a big v10 it should not get lug down like a one cylinder Genny would.

But a very intresting soluton.

Im sure it would burn a gallon or two of fuel every hour VS a half a gal. So thats another factor.

Plus like you said is it good to run the v10 for 8 hours standing still at same RPM? What bout the tremendous heat from the Cat? All of the wear and tear on the engine. Must quicker and cheaper to pull out the genny and repair or replace.

And California will outlaw this practice in a heartbeat due to the increased emissions of the V10 operating at idle for hours at a time.

[JamieGeek]

This all circles back to: If the RV was a hybrid then you just hook your inverter up to the traction battery of the hybrid and then let the system automatically charge up the traction battery when it needs to just like it would if you were driving down the road.

The thing here is, however, the traction battery would be large enough (by several factors) to run the A/C overnight without the engine starting up at all--it takes far more power to move the coach than to cool it.

Now you're not idling a large V-10 you're idling a V-6 or even I-4 (most likely Atkinson cycle as well). In addition, all the OEM controller's used to keep a charge on the traction battery would not change--its just that the traction battery would be draining from the house systems instead of the motors connected to the wheels.

[Radioradio]

I tried to keep it simple for what the man wanted to do concerning his Moho. Most generators run at a constant rpm to maintain 60 cycle. And a parked Moho with the engine running would be lots of heat that would just normally dissipate as the rig goes down the road. I try to answer at the same level it was presented.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Radioradio

I tried to keep it simple for what the man wanted to do concerning his Moho. Most generators run at a constant rpm to maintain 60 cycle. And a parked Moho with the engine running would be lots of heat that would just normally dissipate as the rig goes down the road. I try to answer at the same level it was presented.

Oh yeah but that doesn't mean we can't run with it

An idling engine doesn't really generate that much heat--when its running at 2500 RPM with a huge load on it--that is when its generating heat.

When the load goes up a little the radiator fan would probably be enough for cooling at idle.

[The Gritz Carlton]

Originally Posted by Muggs

It would be nice to have a quiet RV. In our circumstance we are loading up for a 3 day, two night stay at a drag strip. We will need generator power for battery charging (racecar), A//C, kettle for hot water, microwave, TV/video games, refer and hot water.

At the track we use a Champion 3500w RV ready generator mounted on open racecar trailer. Depending on outside temps, it will run anywhere from 12 to 16 hours on 3.6 gallong of gas. When real hot or high demand, I run the internal Onan. I also fill RV tank on way in. In 2.5 years and 18,000 miles the Onan only has 341 hours. An educated guess would be Champion has upwards of 3000 hours. Best $300 investment I have ever made.

Same here...2 Honda 2000's parallel or Champion 3100 to supplement the QD6000 house unit. Run the house unit in middle of day when real hot and need both A/C's. We do AMS race weekend for 10 days, Southern Nationals for 5 days, drag boat races in two other places plus a lot of boondocking elsewhere. This system saves tons of fuel and works well.

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Oh yeah but that doesn't mean we can't run with it

An idling engine doesn't really generate that much heat--when its running at 2500 RPM with a huge load on it--that is when its generating heat.

When the load goes up a little the radiator fan would probably be enough for cooling at idle.

Cooling systems are just a minor detail... Current technology can easily handle whatever heat load gets put them: it just comes down to figuring out what you need.

[TurnerFam]

in today's battery environment, you'd have a LOT of weight attributed just to your power storage, so the idea of being 'off-grid' capable without ever needing a secondary power source to charge the smaller battery bank is still in play. We all may 'hope' that technology is close enough to make it happen without generators, but the reality is that with as much 'lectricity as we depend on, it's well into the future, and other technology may come into play before we ever actually get there, at least for the scenarios we envision right now.
Even our 'green' electric cars REQUIRE a power source to bring their batteries up to where we can actually USE the car... solar may not provide enough of that, at least not in a mobile environment, unless you want to also tow a 'solar trailer' for the sole purpose of having enough 'space' for the amount of solar you'd need... but then, how'd you tow your 'lectric car?

We'll get there... but it seems that there are processes and improvements and new technologies needed to actually make it happen.

[Bob Denman]

No doubt: battery technology needs to catch up a bit...

But by loosing the weight and mass of the generator: you free up a lot of room for all of this new stuff!

[TurnerFam]

as a side note: also google 'micro-inverters' and see what you think...

Magnum is producing a dual-solar-panel 120v/240v micro-inverter.... no need for a separate inverter

and

Enphase is producing a single-solar-panel micro-inverter, AND an AC SOLAR PANEL, which is a 120v/240v output solar panel(integrated micro-inverter), designed for 'grid-tie' homes and business, but are also designing a version that will provide the same scenario for mobile solar needs, such as RVs, and even for totally off-grid living.

cool:

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

This all circles back to: If the RV was a hybrid then you just hook your inverter up to the traction battery of the hybrid and then let the system automatically charge up the traction battery when it needs to just like it would if you were driving down the road.

The thing here is, however, the traction battery would be large enough (by several factors) to run the A/C overnight without the engine starting up at all--it takes far more power to move the coach than to cool it.

Now you're not idling a large V-10 you're idling a V-6 or even I-4 (most likely Atkinson cycle as well). In addition, all the OEM controller's used to keep a charge on the traction battery would not change--its just that the traction battery would be draining from the house systems instead of the motors connected to the wheels.

I agree that the technology is already here. All that’s needed is for some large OEM company like Ford to adapt it to RV use in order to lower costs, or to make it possible for other companies or entrepreneurs to piggyback on the OEM equipment. I’m still hopeful the 48-Volt hybrid charging systems (like already on RAM 1/2-ton pickups) can be modified to charge a 48-Volt house battery bank at a very low cost. We’ll know in a year or two when someone inevitably tries it.

[blw2]

yeah, I've considered the same thing many times...about the onan being loud and chassis engine alternators pulling the load instead, I mean...

I didn't go back to check if this is the same thread so maybe I've posted this previously...about fitrv.com ditching his generator for a big lithium battery and an inverter.

Anyway, I think the big key to all of this is if one has the need to run AC overnight. If it's cool enough so that this isn't necessary, then I think ideas like this start looking much more reasonable....IF big batteries were available at realistic pricing...

My thought is that when boondocking the only way we've ever done it...it's basically stopping for a night enroute. So we're basically running the chassis engine anyway for at least some time before stopping. A few hours in the evening using electric stuff... then if cool enough shut down the AC and most everything for the night. The next morning we're driving so the big alternators could do the recharge. We have boondocked in a national forest just a bit when we went out west, near the grand canyon. But even then is was basically the same model, just not driving as many miles....we'd break camp to drive to the visitor's center, store, or whatever... and we are doing this for several days in a row already now, with just the OEM alternator and a junk hybrid house battery. (we just don't have the inverter or enough to run AC or microwave)
So
it seems to me that the big alternators...and perhaps coupled with even just a moderate amount of solar would probably work well for limited AC use and such...

Anyway, when I start thinking around these ideas, I always circle back to the potential for needing something to run for more extended periods parked...like setting up camp and not moving for some time....and the chassis engine just doesn't seem to be the most efficient thing for that job.... so I land on an idea of something like this...
replace the onan with a large lithium battery bank + a small engine just to drive the alternator... like what's in a small honda genny but without its inverter. Super quiet and very fuel efficient. Not enough to do the job totally stand alone, but enough to significantly reduce the need for running the chassis engine and it's bigger alternators.

[Chance]

You can do a Google search for engine-driven battery chargers and find many different sizes/capacity. Many are large enough to easily power one high efficiency A/C requiring about 1,000 Watts. I’ve also looked at them but find any generator that doesn’t use the vehicle’s fuel tank to be less than desirable. They are also kind of expensive unless you build your own.

In essence a DC alternator with small engine would be similar to range extender on some electric cars. BMW offers a small unit as an option (not saying it would work for RV because of high voltage). Principle is the similar though.