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Old 08-08-2020, 03:31 PM   #21
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Kind of can't: That 1400 horsepower "edition" isn't an edition, its a one off hand built custom thing just for "playing around with".

Besides, it only has 56.8kWh of battery the one I ordered has 98kWh of battery...

On the other hand it has 7 electric motors: 3 on the front axle and 4 on the rear.

So just enough battery to power 1400 HP for a quarter-mile run and then cruise slowly to the charging station.

Or maybe enough to set a new world top speed record?

I know Ford is just trying to make a statement for marketing purposes, much like an electric F-150 towing a train, but these stunts could backfire if perceived as acts of desperation.

Instead of towing a train, Iíd rather see an F-150 EV tow a real camper a reasonable distance on real Interstates at normal speeds. That would be far more significant to me at an engineering level.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:10 PM   #22
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~120, ~84, ~74 miles.

Looks like they overnighted once at a campground and charged there (not to full, however since its such a big battery in the X, only got to about 88% before moving on).

Its part of the "challenge" of driving an EV, but if I had to do it regularly yeah I wouldn't.

On the Mach-E forums there are a lot of 1st time EV'ers discussing long road trips and many have already decided to keep a gas car for long trips because the extra 30 minutes or so per every 2+ hours is too much (then one thread broke down into a discussion of how many times humans pee per day ! LOL).

I love reasonable challenges, but at same time think we are still far from having vehicles that average buyers will buy to tow camping trailers like those built today.

As an example, if a motorhome like yours on an E-350 chassis was built with a 4-cylinder heavy duty engine (half of the new 7.3L V8), nobody would buy it because it would be considered underpowered. Yet with 200 HP and over 600-mile driving range, I could get to any destination much faster than with electric motorhomes or EVs towing trailers considering how often they have to charge. Your Axis could easily cruise at 60 MPH all day with less than 200 HP and get there in half the time.

Whether the goal is to save money or the environment, I see smaller motorhomes with smaller engines driven at slower speeds as a much more viable option today than battery-electric vehicles for camping, yet most buyers wonít go that route.

Electric campers are very interesting to discuss from a technical standpoint, but I honestly donít see large electric pickups towing 15,000-pound 5ers down the Interstates in near future. I doubt itíll happen in my lifetime.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:18 PM   #23
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I love reasonable challenges, but at same time think we are still far from having vehicles that average buyers will buy to tow camping trailers like those built today.

As an example, if a motorhome like yours on an E-350 chassis was built with a 4-cylinder heavy duty engine (half of the new 7.3L V8), nobody would buy it because it would be considered underpowered. Yet with 200 HP and over 600-mile driving range, I could get to any destination much faster than with electric motorhomes or EVs towing trailers considering how often they have to charge. Your Axis could easily cruise at 60 MPH all day with less than 200 HP and get there in half the time.

Whether the goal is to save money or the environment, I see smaller motorhomes with smaller engines driven at slower speeds as a much more viable option today than battery-electric vehicles for camping, yet most buyers wonít go that route.

Electric campers are very interesting to discuss from a technical standpoint, but I honestly donít see large electric pickups towing 15,000-pound 5ers down the Interstates in near future. I doubt itíll happen in my lifetime.
Oh yeah without a big breakthough in battery density it isn't going to happen.

I still think the best bet is that F-150 hybrid powertrain, with a slightly larger battery. You get your smaller engine (a V-6 3.5L in this instance instead of a 4 cylinder--still the 3.5L is 1/2 (approx) the displacement of that V-8) and eliminate the generator.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:49 PM   #24
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[QUOTE=Chance;248060]So just enough battery to power 1400 HP for a quarter-mile run and then cruise slowly to the charging station.

Or maybe enough to set a new world top speed record?
Or at least enough to lose your license...
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:56 PM   #25
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What makes some technical sense to me short-term are electric pickups, vans, and light trucks with about 100 km (62-mile) of battery range when lightly loaded, but backed by a range extender sized to handle the ďtowingĒ power demands. There seems to be interest in this approach in Europe around large cities.

Even this makes most sense in US only for those who use their trucks mostly for private transportation and tow for recreational needs occasionally. Battery capacity, cost and weight are limited, but adds cost and weight of range extender.

Ford has smaller Transit Custom van like that in Europe, and Iíd consider the full-size Transit for a camper if built and sold here. The hybrid power train could support camping needs extremely well if Ford allows it.
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Old 08-08-2020, 07:18 PM   #26
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The goal for the 1400 HP Mach-E was to have enough battery to be on the track for an hour and then charge an hour....repeat. (It was in one of the videos or articles about it..)
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Old 08-08-2020, 07:31 PM   #27
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That's what I do with my string trimmer: run it for 20 minutes, and charge it for 40...
(Okay: I have 5 batteries, and 4 chargers)
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Old 08-09-2020, 01:25 AM   #28
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The goal for the 1400 HP Mach-E was to have enough battery to be on the track for an hour and then charge an hour....repeat. (It was in one of the videos or articles about it..)
That doesnít add up ó 1,400 HP is over 1,000 kW of power, so if you ran close to max power for an hour, it would take well over 1,000 kWh of batteries, right? Itís not even in right ballpark.

Your previous post below states it has 56.8 kWh of battery capacity, so if averaged over one hour, it could support about 60 HP (assuming around 80% efficiency). Granted, on a track there would be regeneration involved, but 1,400 HP wouldnít be possible for very long. Not on 56.8 kWh of battery.

I was joking before about a 1/4 mile run as all-out range, but numbers suggests a few minutes at 1,400 HP at most. And that assumes batteries and other components donít overheat first.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
Kind of can't: That 1400 horsepower "edition" isn't an edition, its a one off hand built custom thing just for "playing around with".

Besides, it only has 56.8kWh of battery the one I ordered has 98kWh of battery...

On the other hand it has 7 electric motors: 3 on the front axle and 4 on the rear.
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Old 08-09-2020, 01:43 AM   #29
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That doesn’t add up — 1,400 HP is over 1,000 kW of power, so if you ran close to max power for an hour, it would take well over 1,000 kWh of batteries, right? It’s not even in right ballpark.

Your previous post below states it has 56.8 kWh of battery capacity, so if averaged over one hour, it could support about 60 HP (assuming around 80% efficiency). Granted, on a track there would be regeneration involved, but 1,400 HP wouldn’t be possible for very long. Not on 56.8 kWh of battery.

I was joking before about a 1/4 mile run as all-out range, but numbers suggests a few minutes at 1,400 HP at most. And that assumes batteries and other components don’t overheat first.
You're assuming that its running/using 100% of the power all the time--it isn't.

(Officially its listed as 1400 peak horsepower--even the spec says it isn't running that all the time.)

Its using seven of these guys:
https://www.yasa.com/wp-content/uplo...duct_Sheet.pdf

Peak power @ 700Vdc is 160kW so 7 of them is 1120kW! LOL

Continuous power is 20kW to 100kW.

Also keep in mind that "on the track" doesn't mean racing, this guy is a demonstrator for the likes of Ken Block...they aren't racing it, they're drifting it, sliding it, doughnuts, etc. basically doing everything they can to leave as much tire on the pavement as possible....

What do you see it doing the most here? Making smoke:


Besides the "drive for an hour, charge for an hour" isn't my claim, its theirs...argue with them.

This Car & Driver article says 45 minutes:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...1400-revealed/

The Mach-E forum's discussion of it (you may recognize a user in there, and a Thor RV in his avatar...):
https://www.macheforum.com/site/thre...rsepower.1125/
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Old 08-09-2020, 12:36 PM   #30
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You're assuming that its running/using 100% of the power all the time--it isn't.

(Officially its listed as 1400 peak horsepower--even the spec says it isn't running that all the time.)

Its using seven of these guys:
https://www.yasa.com/wp-content/uplo...duct_Sheet.pdf

Peak power @ 700Vdc is 160kW so 7 of them is 1120kW! LOL

Continuous power is 20kW to 100kW.

Also keep in mind that "on the track" doesn't mean racing, this guy is a demonstrator for the likes of Ken Block...they aren't racing it, they're drifting it, sliding it, doughnuts, etc. basically doing everything they can to leave as much tire on the pavement as possible....

What do you see it doing the most here? Making smoke:


Besides the "drive for an hour, charge for an hour" isn't my claim, its theirs...argue with them.

This Car & Driver article says 45 minutes:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...1400-revealed/

The Mach-E forum's discussion of it (you may recognize a user in there, and a Thor RV in his avatar...):
https://www.macheforum.com/site/thre...rsepower.1125/

The only significant thing I assumed is that itís a marketing stunt.

I donít want to argue anything, with you or Ford or whomever. I prefer discussing subjects based on facts and not emotions.

I simply did a rough estimate that shows that if you used 1400 HP, a 56.8 kWh battery can only last between 3 and 4 minutes at most. Other factors could realistically limit it to less than 3 minutes. Whatever they are doing for most of an hour, it canít involve much power.

I also roughly estimated that a 56.8 kWh battery if evenly discharged over one hour could deliver 56.8 kW, right? That can power a motor around 60 HP for an hour. In real driving a standard Mustang with a 4 cylinder EcoBoost can deliver much more than 60 HP average for an hour or much longer. These are matters of fact, not opinions or assumptions. This adds perspective to why the Tesla doesnít have much towing range.

In my opinion the average guy sees a Tesla with huge power and performance ratings and concludes it should be able to tow pretty well, but doesnít actually comprehend that battery capacity canít support those numbers for very long. Not long at all. Using 300~400 HP will drain battery in minutes, not hours.

Itís a completely different game when gas motorhomes (or trucks pulling trailers) use over 100 HP to maintain highway speed, and larger diesel rigs in order of 200 HP. Thatís difficult to relate to in electric equivalent. A motorhome or pickup towing a large 5er would need ďapproximatelyĒ 100 to 200 kWh of battery capacity for every hour it drives to cover 60~65 miles.

Donít get me wrong, I love electric cars and wish I owned one. On the other hand I donít like marketing when it intentionally exaggerates out of context to the point of being deceptive.
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Old 08-09-2020, 12:44 PM   #31
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Marketing is just marketing: the art of getting you to want something that you didn't even know that you wanted...
To create a need where none exists: they have to point out the good attributes, and hide the not-so-good ones.
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Old 08-09-2020, 01:56 PM   #32
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LOL of course its a marketing stunt--you could argue NASCAR is a marketing stunt (apologies to NASCAR fans).

Its also an engineering excercise to allow a few people to have fun LOL.
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Old 08-09-2020, 01:58 PM   #33
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Accepted...
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:56 PM   #34
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I think there is some promise in hybrids. Or dual power. I drove a Volt for a couple of years and itís lifetime gas mileage was 240mpg. Yet it could still go on long trips with ďnormalĒ car mileage (I.e. about 28 mpg). Wouldnít work as well in a heavy duty application but the concept could be developed along those lines.
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:29 PM   #35
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I still like my "tiny gasser".
Averaging well over 50 mpg, with an all-time high of 71.3.
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:40 PM   #36
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I think there is some promise in hybrids. Or dual power. I drove a Volt for a couple of years and itís lifetime gas mileage was 240mpg. Yet it could still go on long trips with ďnormalĒ car mileage (I.e. about 28 mpg). Wouldnít work as well in a heavy duty application but the concept could be developed along those lines.

Yeah, Iím in that camp also. If looking at a large motorhome the size of a Challenger, for example, instead of needing around 500 kWh or more of battery capacity in order to have reasonable range, it could have 100 kWh plus a range extender. That would also allow an all-electric ďhouseĒ which could even power air conditioning or heat for a day or two. And if boondocking for many days, the range extender could start for an hour and charge batteries for another day or two (or much longer in mild weather).

As mentioned before, I expect this will happen first in B-Vans when OEM hybrid are brought to market. Unfortunately, itíll likely be a few more years before we see large hybrid vans mass produced in North America.
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:58 PM   #37
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Yeah, I’m in that camp also. If looking at a large motorhome the size of a Challenger, for example, instead of needing around 500 kWh or more of battery capacity in order to have reasonable range, it could have 100 kWh plus a range extender. That would also allow an all-electric “house” which could even power air conditioning or heat for a day or two. And if boondocking for many days, the range extender could start for an hour and charge batteries for another day or two (or much longer in mild weather).

As mentioned before, I expect this will happen first in B-Vans when OEM hybrid are brought to market. Unfortunately, it’ll likely be a few more years before we see large hybrid vans mass produced in North America.
This is exactly why I think the 2021 F-150 hybrid powertrain takes a step in that direction; especially with its available 7.2kW "generator".
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