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Old 01-08-2021, 07:31 PM   #61
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I guess we'll need some engineers to put one in wind tunnel, and start whittling on it.
It can be done!
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Old 01-08-2021, 07:32 PM   #62
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Can kill gas mileage too.

I’d like to see more data on that 20%~30% estimate if applied to a motorhome or a truck shaped like a box. I expect a much greater hit on range.

For example, that motorhome weighs roughly twice what a Tesla S weighs, and has roughly the same size battery. If driven slowly so rolling resistance was predominant energy consumption, then 249 miles of range versus Tesla at over 400 miles would make sense to me. However, the aerodynamic drag of that motorhome is probably more than twice what a Tesla S has, so if driven at steady 70 MPH on Interstate, I would expect range to take a much greater hit proportionally.

It’s similar to when someone (TFLT) tried pulling a trailer with Tesla SUV. Total weight more or less doubled, but range dropped to nearly 1/4 when at higher speeds. Granted, this Class C looks more aerodynamic than the trailer they used, but I’d still want to see data for motorhomes or trucks, not base it on aerodynamic automobiles.
Right.

There is a family on youtube who ditched their truck and bought a tiny camper to pull behind their Model-X. Probably more like what we'd see with the Iridium.
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Old 01-08-2021, 07:40 PM   #63
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Exactly. Guys from The Fast Lane Truck had similar results. It would not surprise me at all if a motorhome that size uses close to 1 kWh per mile at “normal” highway speeds.


P.S. — By the way, they seem to have been driving quite slowly to even get the low range they accomplished. I averaged a couple of their segments and they were 46 and 51 MPH. We can see on video how fast other vehicles passed and pulled away. I would not want to drive 50 MPH on an Interstate, even if it were legal.
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Old 01-11-2021, 06:25 AM   #64
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In my strictly personal opinion, I think the important take-away is it's being tested and proven in certain test cases. We can all wait for the the next result that satisfies our appetite and likely find fault with that as well but, I see a start that answers a question: can we, and if we can should we?

Just sharing a thought. No affront intended.
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Old 01-11-2021, 02:03 PM   #65
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Being objective and presenting factual data is not the same as being critical in my opinion. Itís simply one way to limit unsupported marketing hype that would occur if left unchecked. Honesty is necessary, and still has a place in our society. Itís one thing to show an electric F-150 pickup towing a train, but how will it perform towing a camper in Colorado in winter? Thatís more relevant.

We know wind drag presents a huge problem for electric vehicles, so towing a large trailer, even if relatively light, kills range. And to a lesser degree extreme cold and mountains.

It doesnít mean an electric F-150 shouldnít be sold (as an example), but potential buyers need to be aware of the vehicleís limitations. Ford and other vehicle manufacturers will likely highlight the positives, and downplay negatives.

The following video is a little long but shows the effect mountains have on EVs, even when applied to cars with long range. In this case they compare a Tesla versus electric Mustang; and thereís no towing involved.



https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA
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Old 01-11-2021, 02:31 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
Being objective and presenting factual data is not the same as being critical in my opinion. Itís simply one way to limit unsupported marketing hype that would occur if left unchecked. Honesty is necessary, and still has a place in our society. Itís one thing to show an electric F-150 pickup towing a train, but how will it perform towing a camper in Colorado in winter? Thatís more relevant.

We know wind drag presents a huge problem for electric vehicles, so towing a large trailer, even if relatively light, kills range. And to a lesser degree extreme cold and mountains.

It doesnít mean an electric F-150 shouldnít be sold (as an example), but potential buyers need to be aware of the vehicleís limitations. Ford and other vehicle manufacturers will likely highlight the positives, and downplay negatives.

The following video is a little long but shows the effect mountains have on EVs, even when applied to cars with long range. In this case they compare a Tesla versus electric Mustang; and thereís no towing involved.



https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA
LOL! There is soo much discussion about that video on the Mach-E forums (due to the charging failures and also how much the dad is biased towards Tesla) even Tommy from the video took part in the conversation.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thre...-ev-test.2579/
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Old 01-11-2021, 03:16 PM   #67
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But I did like that big dog...
Way too much personal bias bled through...
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Old 01-11-2021, 03:33 PM   #68
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LOL! There is soo much discussion about that video on the Mach-E forums (due to the charging failures and also how much the dad is biased towards Tesla) even Tommy from the video took part in the conversation.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thre...-ev-test.2579/

Thereís a lot of attitude and bickering on that forum.

I didnít read all 20 pages, but in general my ďopinionĒ is that we need an electric charging system that is universal, and not Teslaís approach. Granted, from a business standpoint it has served Tesla extremely well, but unless we want EV choices to be limited to just a few manufacturersí, we need charging to be similar to gas stations ó lots of them pretty much everywhere, and not brand specific.

Itís only my opinion since thereís no right or wrong, but I disagree with TFLT point of view about manufacturers like Ford building their own charging infrastructure. Short term it has worked great for Tesla, but much longer term I donít see that approach being practical.

Having said that, itís good Tesla have set the bar high.
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Old 01-11-2021, 03:55 PM   #69
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Chance,
Since Tesla's system seems to be the most-developed so far: do you think that it should become the universal standard for everyone to follow?
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Old 01-11-2021, 04:02 PM   #70
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Thereís a lot of attitude and bickering on that forum.

I didnít read all 20 pages, but in general my ďopinionĒ is that we need an electric charging system that is universal, and not Teslaís approach. Granted, from a business standpoint it has served Tesla extremely well, but unless we want EV choices to be limited to just a few manufacturersí, we need charging to be similar to gas stations ó lots of them pretty much everywhere, and not brand specific.

Itís only my opinion since thereís no right or wrong, but I disagree with TFLT point of view about manufacturers like Ford building their own charging infrastructure. Short term it has worked great for Tesla, but much longer term I donít see that approach being practical.

Having said that, itís good Tesla have set the bar high.
Indeed there is a lot of bickering. What people that have nothing else to do for 14+ months while waiting for their cars to show up spend their time on ! LOL. (I find it especially amusing because they are bickering about hypotheticals since the vast majority of them have never driven an EV and have no frame of reference.)

Quote:
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Chance,
Since Tesla's system seems to be the most-developed so far: do you think that it should become the universal standard for everyone to follow?
My thoughts: There is a universal standard: Its called J1772 and everyone (but Tesla) has adopted it. It existed before Tesla.

At the moment the DCFC (part of J1772 that does fast charging) network is being built out faster than Tesla's network (despite the problems in that video at one station). It will only be a few years before the non-Tesla network is larger than the Tesla network especially with all the EVs that are coming down the pike.
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Old 01-11-2021, 04:35 PM   #71
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Jamie,
Thanks for that info!
I should apologize for all of my rank ignorance about this topic:
My experience with "Battery Buggies" is limited to R/C cars...
But since I'm trying to think ahead: I'm working on building a practical knowledge about the subject...
Back to business
If I were to assume that speed of charging is of paramount importance: which system (Tesla, or the J1772 standard); does it better?

I'm sensing a "VHS versus Betamax" mess...
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Old 01-11-2021, 04:45 PM   #72
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Jamie,
Thanks for that info!
I should apologize for all of my rank ignorance about this topic:
My experience with "Battery Buggies" is limited to R/C cars...
But since I'm trying to think ahead: I'm working on building a practical knowledge about the subject...
Back to business
If I were to assume that speed of charging is of paramount importance: which system (Tesla, or the J1772 standard); does it better?

I'm sensing a "VHS versus Betamax" mess...
Yeah it is a little VHS/Betamax (very much so since Betamax was Sony and VHS was everyone else).

"Better" is a bit of a quandry: By what metric is better? watching that video you'd think Tesla is better and, at the moment, they are: simple plug in to charge and it works. It is also a more mature system than the DCFC network so yeah..

The "Plug in and Charge" system is just coming online now some chargers support it some don't (and the Mach-E is one of the first vehicles to support it). The idea is similar to Tesla's: You just plug your car in and it starts charging (the car & charger negotiates payment and charge rate automatically).

Again the non-Tesla network has some catching up to do but it will get there.

I think I mentioned rates earlier: I belive max Tesla charge rate (for the latest Model 3's and Y's) is 250kW (fill up a Model 3 from 5% to 90% in 37 minutes).

Electrify America are putting DCFC chargers in that can charge up to 350kW but the car has to support it (Mach-E's max rate is 150kW 10% - 80% in 45 minutes).
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Old 01-11-2021, 04:52 PM   #73
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So this game is still being played out...
It would seem to me that the process has to be absolutely seamless, and as fast as safety will allow.
Can either of the two systems be made to work with vehicles that were built to use the other system's standards?
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Old 01-11-2021, 05:16 PM   #74
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So this game is still being played out...
It would seem to me that the process has to be absolutely seamless, and as fast as safety will allow.
Can either of the two systems be made to work with vehicles that were built to use the other system's standards?
Yes: https://insideevs.com/news/463721/te...adapter-setec/
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Old 01-11-2021, 05:40 PM   #75
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Dogbones for EVs...
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Old 01-11-2021, 09:45 PM   #76
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So this game is still being played out...
It would seem to me that the process has to be absolutely seamless, and as fast as safety will allow.
Can either of the two systems be made to work with vehicles that were built to use the other system's standards?
Someone seems to have forgotten how long it took for Beta v. VHS to play out

Kidding, busting chops in a friendly way. Just can't see my face to prove it
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Old 01-13-2021, 12:23 AM   #77
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Hey Jamie,
Did you see who won the 2021 North American SUV of the year?
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Old 01-13-2021, 12:44 AM   #78
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Hey Jamie,
Did you see who won the 2021 North American SUV of the year?
Maybe: https://www.macheforum.com/site/thre...the-year.2746/

As a side note: The forum software there is a lot nicer than here LOL.
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Old 01-13-2021, 01:10 AM   #79
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😀 Yup! 👍
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Old 01-13-2021, 02:52 AM   #80
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GM apparently started new company to build electric delivery-size vans, and other commercial vehicles. Just saw news, and donít know if itís been discussed already.

The vanís size at 600 cubic feet would make a great compact motorhome a little larger than a standard van, yet still shaped like a small Class A.

It appears low so should be very stable and more energy efficient at highway speeds. I like that itís based on a 4-wheel design making it more ďautomotiveĒ. Maximum reported range seems better than Ford electric Transit van, although thereís no information to compare cost, battery size, or payload.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...les-announced/

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