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Old 09-23-2020, 12:50 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
Your coach's alternator assumes it is attached to a starting flooded battery. In order to have the parameters to hook it to a Li battery, you need a specific BIM to connect the batteries for charging with the alternator and or the emergency start switch. The charging profiles of the different battery types vary just enough to cause a problem. Second problem is you should never try to charge a Li battery if the temperature is below freezing. A Li-BIM knows that, as does a charger which has a LiFePo4 setting.
cut...
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Any suggestions on where to purchase the beast. I hate Amazon, so please don't go there?

Thanks.
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:09 AM   #22
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You asked. Part 1 of 2. Drain your brain :)

Be careful what you ask for.

Work to be done. I still have to wire the control board.
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:32 AM   #23
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Wow! That flew over my subterranean head at about 65,000 feet!
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:37 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
Wow! That flew over my subterranean head at about 65,000 feet!
Yeah. Don't that to yourself.

Sit back and try to understand. You're smarter than you might be giving yourself credit for.
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The_Breeze View Post
Any suggestions on where to purchase the beast. I hate Amazon, so please don't go there?

Thanks.
<https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/lifepo4-battery-isolation-manager/>
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:17 AM   #26
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Thank you

I see the BIM. I have one behind the coolant reservoir under the hood. While not sufficient in this new application, I'm trying to figure out how to mount it.

I'm hands on and want to do this myself. I'll order but need time to sort it out.

Thanks again.
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Old 09-26-2020, 06:43 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
Generally the only difference between a flooded charging profile and a liFePO4 battery is the max amperage for bulk charging. A typical installed charger has a 55 amp max output. A 400 amp-h Li bank can easily adsorb 150 amps @ 12 volts. This can reduce your charge time significantly.

Hello the above statement is not correct there are different voltage protocols for charging lithium batteries, therefore in most cases standard flooded / AGM chargers are not to be used. Inverter / Chargers such as (Xantrex, Magnum, other) must have a lithium charge program to properly charge lithium batteries, most come with the proper selection for lithium.

Regarding the engine Alternator, since Lithium has a very low internal resistance the Alternators charging circuit thinks the battery is dead and can cause the alternator to run at full power resulting in over-heating of the windings and bearing. Instead of the BIM On and Off times isolator, I highly recommend MasterVolt Charge Mate Pro battery isolater / charger since it is a smart charger which electronically limits alternator output to 40 or 90 amps well within the warranty of the chassis maker.

I provided a link below for Charge Mate Pro.

Mike Mas
www.rvvolt.com


https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...e-mate-pro-90/
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Old 09-26-2020, 06:59 PM   #28
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Nope

You don't have to ask anyone. It is well covered in Motorhome magazine. The answer to your question is nope, stock controllers do not have the correct profile for flooded acid batteries. It will work with AGM batteries.
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Old 09-26-2020, 10:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by LowOnCash View Post
Hello the above statement is not correct there are different voltage protocols for charging lithium batteries, therefore in most cases standard flooded / AGM chargers are not to be used. Inverter / Chargers such as (Xantrex, Magnum, other) must have a lithium charge program to properly charge lithium batteries, most come with the proper selection for lithium.
Mike Mas
Please do not confuse lithium polymer, lithium cobalt or lithium nickle batteries with LFP (lithiumferrophospate or LiFePo4). LFP batteries are less dense have a lower charging and output voltages than the other common types of lithium-ion batteries. The reason LFP batteries are used in RVs is their stability and similarity to lead acid batteries.
LFP cell voltage at 100% charge is 3.2 volts, 3.28 volt min charge, but the charging voltage can not be greater than 3.65 volts. That is 12.8 volts resting for 4 cells in series and 14.6 volts (max) four cells in series, charging.

The charging profile for LA and LFP batteries is exactly the same: bulk (constant current), absorption (constant voltage) and float (trickle charge). For a flooded deep cycle, the max cell charge voltage (resting) is 2.13 volts. The min charging voltage at 70 F degrees is 2.22 volts with a recommend charging voltage of 2.35 to 2.45 volts. That's 12.78 volts for 6 cells in series and 14.1 to 14.70 volts for 6 cells.

So any voltage above 3.28 volts will charge a LFP cell or for 4 cells in series 13.12 volts will charge the battery. Admittedly it will take a fairly long time at 13.12 volts. The higher the voltage the shorter the charge time and so it is with LA batteries. The slower you recharge a battery the longer its life. For 400 cycle life, Lifeline recommends 10 to 13% charge in amp-hp. So for 400 amp-h LA battery bank, that would be a current of 40 to 52 amps. The recommend max charge current for Battle Born's LFP battery 50% charge in amp-h, so for the same 400 amp-h LFP battery bank that would be 200 amps and that would equate to aprox 2,000 cycles from 100% down to 20%. Again less current will lengthen the cycle life of the battery.
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Old 09-26-2020, 10:55 PM   #30
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Alright folks, I'm confused

Hi guys,
Background:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LowOnCash View Post

cut...

Regarding the engine Alternator, since Lithium has a very low internal resistance the Alternators charging circuit thinks the battery is dead and can cause the alternator to run at full power resulting in over-heating of the windings and bearing. Instead of the BIM On and Off times isolator, I highly recommend MasterVolt Charge Mate Pro battery isolater / charger since it is a smart charger which electronically limits alternator output to 40 or 90 amps well within the warranty of the chassis maker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post

cut...

The charging profile for LA and LFP batteries is exactly the same: bulk (constant current), absorption (constant voltage) and float (trickle charge). For a flooded deep cycle, the max cell charge voltage (resting) is 2.13 volts. The min charging voltage at 70 F degrees is 2.22 volts with a recommend charging voltage of 2.35 to 2.45 volts. That's 12.78 volts for 6 cells in series and 14.1 to 14.70 volts for 6 cells.

So any voltage above 3.28 volts will charge a LFP cell or for 4 cells in series 13.12 volts will charge the battery. Admittedly it will take a fairly long time at 13.12 volts. The higher the voltage the shorter the charge time and so it is with LA batteries. The slower you recharge a battery the longer its life. For 400 cycle life, Lifeline recommends 10 to 13% charge in amp-hp. So for 400 amp-h LA battery bank, that would be a current of 40 to 52 amps. The recommend max charge current for Battle Born's LFP battery 50% charge in amp-h, so for the same 400 amp-h LFP battery bank that would be 200 amps and that would equate to aprox 2,000 cycles from 100% down to 20%. Again less current will lengthen the cycle life of the battery.

I ordered 4 Battle Born LiFePO4 100ah batteries, the BIM Beau suggested and an AIMs 2500w inverter with a lithium charge profile.

Whose right and whose wrong in the above comments? I lean towards Beau but the contradiction in LowOnCash's and Beau's explanation have caused some angst.

My RV is my home until I exit the lifestyle. I don't need to burn my house down in the process or ruin a $4k battery investment. More if you count the rest.

It's not your job to get me through this. It's mine. I've been doing my research but if I'm going to double check myself out here and there's contradictions, please be clear about what you're trying to convey. I'm not trying to start a war. Just be as smart about it as I can while doing the work myself and learning along the way. This is as much a knowledge quest as a quest for reducing gen time.

The batteries are LiFePO4. I'm not sure what lead to the difference in the comments. If you can clear it up, I'd appreciate that a lot.

I have a question into Battle Born:
"I ordered your BIM. I’m being told this is not the right BIM for the job. This is an RV application. Please confirm.

https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...e-mate-pro-90/

'Regarding the engine Alternator, since Lithium has a very low internal resistance the Alternators charging circuit thinks the battery is dead and can cause the alternator to run at full power resulting in over-heating of the windings and bearing. Instead of the BIM On and Off times isolator, I highly recommend MasterVolt Charge Mate Pro battery isolater / charger since it is a smart charger which electronically limits alternator output to 40 or 90 amps well within the warranty of the chassis maker'"


Thanks.
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:05 AM   #31
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I switched from lead to lithium on a 2020 Vegas 27.7. I contacted WFCO and Battleborn and they said about the same - the WFCO 8900 can charge lithium but not to the full capacity of the lithium batteries - they both said numbers around 85 to 90%. I think more importantly, the WFCO 8900 does not get the lithiums to the voltage where the built-in controller equalizes the cells. This can lead to degradation of the batteries. Battleborn said a work around is to take a portable charger designed for lithium and use it on the batteries once a month or so to allow the lithiums to equalize. I decided to change out the WFCO internals - installed WFCO WF-8950L2-MBA. It was $225 from Camping World but shop around. Taking my time and not having opened up the breaker panel and charger before, it took about 45 minutes. You remove a few screws and take off and replace 4 or 5 or 6 wires. There are some Youtube videos and the written directions were good.
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:14 AM   #32
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Should have mentioned that I also changed the battery isolation monitor (BIM) from factory to the one suitable for lithium. Bought LiBIM225 - #00-10041-260. About $155. I think I got it from Battleborn with the batteries. A few screws and 5 or so wires. The hardest part was trying to figure out which factory lead was chassis and which was coach as they weren't labeled and it was next to impossible to follow the wires. The LiBIM posts are labeled.
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:19 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by aaurbanelli@aol.com View Post
Should have mentioned that I also changed the battery isolation monitor (BIM) from factory to the one suitable for lithium. Bought LiBIM225 - #00-10041-260. About $155. I think I got it from Battleborn with the batteries. A few screws and 5 or so wires. The hardest part was trying to figure out which factory lead was chassis and which was coach as they weren't labeled and it was next to impossible to follow the wires. The LiBIM posts are labeled.
Yes, WFCO did make that recommendation and thank for sharing your knowledge. Have you found the BIM does its job?

I bought the Aims inverter with a lith charge profile and Battle Born BIM for hitting the highway. Long term plans are solar and one step at a time. I have a 4kw on-board Onan in the interim for boondock charging.

If it works out well, I'll get a A/C soft start and may be able to use that too if needed.

Take care and safe travels.
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:31 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by aaurbanelli@aol.com View Post
Should have mentioned that I also changed the battery isolation monitor (BIM) from factory to the one suitable for lithium. Bought LiBIM225 - #00-10041-260. About $155. I think I got it from Battleborn with the batteries. A few screws and 5 or so wires. The hardest part was trying to figure out which factory lead was chassis and which was coach as they weren't labeled and it was next to impossible to follow the wires. The LiBIM posts are labeled.
BTW, lithium's popularity changed the price. 172 now at the time of this capture.
https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...ation-manager/
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:39 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
cut...
Again less current will lengthen the cycle life of the battery.
'less current' is that input or draw'?

Thanks.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:38 AM   #36
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Some of the newer converters have a setting that allows it to charge lithium batteries. If it don’t, the converter won’t charge them correctly.
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Old 09-27-2020, 03:43 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by The_Breeze View Post
Who would be the correct people to ask about whether the stock charge controller will charge lithium batteries: Thor or WFCO?

I went to Thor Resources and did not find a manual for it or this question would have been moot.

From their website:
"The WF-8900 Series has revolutionized RV power centers with its lighter weight, decorative doors and superior features. The WF-8955 model provides 55 Amps and a clean, constant 13.6 VDC nominal output, for reliable operation of electronics and appliances. Automatic three-stage charging extends the life of your battery with output voltage modes of 13.2 VDC range “float” mode, 13.6 VDC range “absorption” mode, and a 14.4 VDC range “bulk” charge mode. The 8900 Series also maintains peace and quiet, as the cooling fan runs only when needed.

FCC Class B compliance for every power center model means that the units are designed not to cause interference with televisions, radios, or other signals. Electronic current limiting automatically shuts down the power during overload or short-circuit conditions, protecting the life of your power center and electrical system.

The 8900 Series models provide AC and DC distribution with innovative features. They can accommodate a 30 Amp main AC circuit breaker and up to five branch circuits. Eleven-branch DC circuits are available with LED lights for each DC circuit to illuminate and identify open circuits.

Part Numbers: WF-8955PEC (Brown), WF-8955PEC-B (Black)" (re: https://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8955-55-amp/)
I went on the website for mine and it has separate chargers for lithium batteries all numbers have an L after the numbers
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:57 PM   #38
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Battle Born has been quite forthcoming about how their battery controller works and why voltages are so important. I would never question their recomendations. They are the experts and I am just trying to explain the different chemistries. I hope I have not confused any of you.
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:35 PM   #39
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Battleborn's Response

Looks as though you both right but for different reasons. Thanks for calling it out. Better safe than sorry and it never hurts to cross-check info.

Their response:
"The BIM will work well for an RV application, I use one personally in my camper van without issue. The BIM is a voltage sensing device that will only only connect and charge if certain voltage conditions exist. It will send a charge for a 15 minute period and then duty cycle for 20 minutes to allow the alternator the time needed to cool.

Mastervolt makes some great products and they work well with our lithium batteries. Either will be a suitable option for your RV. If you'd like to return the BIM please let me know. I'll attach a document that outlines the voltage conditions the BIM will operate".

https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...uick-Guide.pdf
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:40 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
Battle Born has been quite forthcoming about how their battery controller works and why voltages are so important. I would never question their recomendations. They are the experts and I am just trying to explain the different chemistries. I hope I have not confused any of you.
No, I believed you were right but, as you do in research/white papers, you never rely on one source. You always should consult multiple references.
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