Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Tech Forums > Motorhome Tech Topics
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-19-2020, 09:08 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
Lithium Batteries and Factory Charge Controller

Who would be the correct people to ask about whether the stock charge controller will charge lithium batteries: Thor or WFCO?

I went to Thor Resources and did not find a manual for it or this question would have been moot.

From their website:
"The WF-8900 Series has revolutionized RV power centers with its lighter weight, decorative doors and superior features. The WF-8955 model provides 55 Amps and a clean, constant 13.6 VDC nominal output, for reliable operation of electronics and appliances. Automatic three-stage charging extends the life of your battery with output voltage modes of 13.2 VDC range “float” mode, 13.6 VDC range “absorption” mode, and a 14.4 VDC range “bulk” charge mode. The 8900 Series also maintains peace and quiet, as the cooling fan runs only when needed.

FCC Class B compliance for every power center model means that the units are designed not to cause interference with televisions, radios, or other signals. Electronic current limiting automatically shuts down the power during overload or short-circuit conditions, protecting the life of your power center and electrical system.

The 8900 Series models provide AC and DC distribution with innovative features. They can accommodate a 30 Amp main AC circuit breaker and up to five branch circuits. Eleven-branch DC circuits are available with LED lights for each DC circuit to illuminate and identify open circuits.

Part Numbers: WF-8955PEC (Brown), WF-8955PEC-B (Black)" (re: https://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8955-55-amp/)
__________________

__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 10:46 PM   #2
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Connecticut
Posts: 74
THOR #20289
I don't know if WCO has a lithium specific battery charger/converter but Progressive Dynamics does, their 9100AL series. The standard converter will usually work but it doesn't hold a high enough voltage, 14.4-14.6 volts to charge the last 15%.

David
__________________

__________________
DavidEM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 11:04 PM   #3
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Windsport 27B
State: Tennessee
Posts: 44
THOR #14933
I checked recently with wfco myself & existing would "work but not to optimal voltage" for lithium. My takeaway was for cost of battery and maximize the use of it, probably need to replace. Of course they make one specifically for lithium batteries.
__________________
mrgscooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2020, 11:44 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 2,180
THOR #6411
Generally the only difference between a flooded charging profile and a liFePO4 battery is the max amperage for bulk charging. A typical installed charger has a 55 amp max output. A 400 amp-h Li bank can easily adsorb 150 amps @ 12 volts. This can reduce your charge time significantly.


Here are the charger requirements from Battle Born:
Charging Voltages/Parameters:
  • Bulk/absorb: 14.2 – 14.6 V
  • Float: 13.6 V or lower
  • No equalization (or set it to 14.4 V)
  • No temperature compensation
  • Absorption time: is 30 minutes per battery (if it’s an option)
You will also need a new LI-BIM (battery isolation manager)
__________________
Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
Beau388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 12:18 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
Thank you

Thank you Gentlemen. I ordered this inverter/charger/xfr-switch tonight:

https://theinverterstore.com/product...erter-charger/

I'm researching batteries and will look into the Battle Born Beau suggested.

Safe travels and thanks again.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 12:19 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
Generally the only difference between a flooded charging profile and a liFePO4 battery is the max amperage for bulk charging. A typical installed charger has a 55 amp max output. A 400 amp-h Li bank can easily adsorb 150 amps @ 12 volts. This can reduce your charge time significantly.


Here are the charger requirements from Battle Born:
Charging Voltages/Parameters:
  • Bulk/absorb: 14.2 – 14.6 V
  • Float: 13.6 V or lower
  • No equalization (or set it to 14.4 V)
  • No temperature compensation
  • Absorption time: is 30 minutes per battery (if it’s an option)
You will also need a new LI-BIM (battery isolation manager)
Thanks. Does the isolation manager have something to do with the chassis battery?

Just ordered 4 of these: https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...cycle-battery/
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 12:54 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 2,180
THOR #6411
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Breeze View Post
Thanks. Does the isolation manager have something to do with the chassis battery?

Just ordered 4 of these: https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...cycle-battery/
Your coach's alternator assumes it is attached to a starting flooded battery. In order to have the parameters to hook it to a Li battery, you need a specific BIM to connect the batteries for charging with the alternator and or the emergency start switch. The charging profiles of the different battery types vary just enough to cause a problem. Second problem is you should never try to charge a Li battery if the temperature is below freezing. A Li-BIM knows that, as does a charger which has a LiFePo4 setting.


A little more useless knowledge - The motor's alternator regulator uses the internal resistance of the starting battery and the wire or cable between the battery and alternator to adjust the voltage and amperage to meet the chassis battery needs. Just adding a big battery bank to the chassis batteries charging circuit can and usually does damage the alternator by overheating and at best can lower the alternators output voltage below 13.2 volts. In order to have the two types of batteries to play nice with the alternator, you need a supervisor (Li-BIM).
__________________
Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
Beau388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 01:15 PM   #8
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 16,062
THOR #8860
This IS starting to sound a lot like Rocket Science...
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
"History shows again and again; how Nature points out the folly of Man!"
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 05:40 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
cut...

In order to have the two types of batteries to play nice with the alternator, you need a supervisor (Li-BIM).
Thanks again!
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 05:42 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
This IS starting to sound a lot like Rocket Science...
Nah, that would be LOX. This is Lithium.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 05:57 PM   #11
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 16,062
THOR #8860
My mistake!
Please keep us in the loop for this very informative project!
__________________
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
"History shows again and again; how Nature points out the folly of Man!"
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 01:42 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
My mistake!
Please keep us in the loop for this very informative project!
I'll can do that in PM. I'd like to avoid the jealous and the critics.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 01:46 AM   #13
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 16,062
THOR #8860
Don't let the jealous ones bother you: you've done a ton of work on this project!
The critics? They're just letting you know about options...
__________________
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 01:51 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
Don't let the jealous ones bother you: you've done a ton of work on this project!
The critics? They're just letting you know about options...
Here's part of it: https://www.thorforums.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=14

Answer to someone else's question about a similar project. The rest is specific to my rig, where and how stuff is installed, etc.
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 03:31 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
WFCO Reply to Inquiry

My question:
"Is the 8955PEC suitable for charging Lithium-ion batteries? I would like to upgrade from lead acid/AGM to lithium in gradual steps toward solar"?

Thank you

Their answer:
"The converter you have is not an actual lithium converter but will charge to approx.. 90%. We do have a direct replacement converter that is lithium Part# WF-8950L2-MBA".
__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 03:38 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Siesta 24SS
State: California
Posts: 750
THOR #12698
There are many of us "uninformed" that would like to follow along and learn something new. Please keep the postings going for us to learn.

Thanks
Paul
__________________
paulwadley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 04:57 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 2,180
THOR #6411
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Breeze View Post
My question:
"Is the 8955PEC suitable for charging Lithium-ion batteries? I would like to upgrade from lead acid/AGM to lithium in gradual steps toward solar"?

Thank you

Their answer:
"The converter you have is not an actual lithium converter but will charge to approx.. 90%. We do have a direct replacement converter that is lithium Part# WF-8950L2-MBA".
That statement is subject to interpretation. If the LiFePo4 batteries do require 14.6 volts for a full charge and your inverter with a max voltage of 14.2 volts will not charge the lithium batteries to the maximum during bulk and adsorption phases. The corollary is all lithium batteries will reach maximum charge during the float charge. All this is based on the lithium batteries internal battery management computers software. Just like a 12 volt lead acid battery is composed of six 2.13 volt cells; a lithium battery is composed of four 3.2 volt cells. Because the current limitations of a lithium battery, it has an internal battery management computer. This controls the charge and discharge rate and voltages because the lithium batteries have little internal resistance and can easily catch fire if abused. Each lithium battery maker sets the limits for their battery to protect the individual cells, so their recommendations are for their batteries alone.
__________________
Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
Beau388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 05:25 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Model: 25.2 Axis
State: Arizona
Posts: 546
THOR #3471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
That statement is subject to interpretation. If the LiFePo4 batteries do require 14.6 volts for a full charge and your inverter with a max voltage of 14.2 volts will not charge the lithium batteries to the maximum during bulk and adsorption phases. The corollary is all lithium batteries will reach maximum charge during the float charge. All this is based on the lithium batteries internal battery management computers software. Just like a 12 volt lead acid battery is composed of six 2.13 volt cells; a lithium battery is composed of four 3.2 volt cells. Because the current limitations of a lithium battery, it has an internal battery management computer. This controls the charge and discharge rate and voltages because the lithium batteries have little internal resistance and can easily catch fire if abused. Each lithium battery maker sets the limits for their battery to protect the individual cells, so their recommendations are for their batteries alone.


So if that battery controller goes bad you could be in trouble right?
__________________
Hugh.vines@att.net is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 06:08 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 2,180
THOR #6411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh.vines@att.net View Post
So if that battery controller goes bad you could be in trouble right?
Yep but on the more expensive batteriy's each battery has a separate controller so you would loose only one battery and the bad controller could be replaced; not the whole battery.
__________________
Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
Beau388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2020, 12:33 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
The_Breeze's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 31L
State: Florida
Posts: 1,568
THOR #12189
I did it again

-That question was posed to a WFCO tech. That was WFCO's response.

I bought 4-100ah Battle Born batteries and they do have separate controllers and will replace the 4 lead acid I have under my steps.

I'm combining that with an AIMS inverter that has a LIFEPO4 charge profile.

Hope that helps?
__________________

__________________
The_Breeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×