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Old 10-01-2020, 12:47 AM   #21
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Those 383's were not revvers...
We had one in a Sport Fury (1968), and our family station wagon (with a 440...) would eat it's lunch.
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:22 AM   #22
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Class 5 and 6 trucks have to meet a different fuel standard the light trucks class 1. 2020 standards are 4.6464 gallons of fuel/100bhp-hour. .....cut....
Thanks much for information.

I canít follow the units of measure if viewed as BSFC, but Iím interested in what it represents or how they are measured. If that was BSFC, the number should be much higher for a gas engine (around +/- 7 gallons????). If you have a link that explains it, Iíd appreciate reading and learning from it.

If that 4.6464 gallons was for a Diesel engine instead of gas, itíd be quite efficient but possible.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:15 PM   #23
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Ok, itís not the return of the V10 ó thatís plenty dead. However, after union negotiations with Ford, Jerry Dias disclosed in Q&A session with press that Ford will be building a new 6.8L engine at the Windsor plant.

Dias also stated the new engine would go into derivatives of Mustang and F-150 pickups. That essentially narrows it down to a gasoline V8.
I towed a 9000lb camper for 16000 miles with a F150 V8.
I loved the engine but it is clear that that engine was not designed for that application.
Because I am from the time we could ride motorcycles with 2 stroke engines, I'm ok with engines reving at 4500rpm frequently but the engine really doesn't like to work at lower revs.
Also, besides Ford efforts to move the customer to the ecoboost engine, more than 1/2 of customers don't want (me included) that engine.
So whatever was the reason to put the 5.0 in the F150 (stop gap? eco terrorists in marketing?, etc) that was not a wise decision.
I also foresee that Ford will offer this new 6.8 with a 6 or 8 transmission.
That 10 speed was the most annoying piece of machinery that I ever had in my life....
On the other hand , the new 7.3L with the 6 speed transmission have being really nice so far...
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:40 PM   #24
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...Because I am from the time we could ride motorcycles with 2 stroke engines, I'm ok with engines revving at 4500rpm frequently but the engine really doesn't like to work at lower revs...
By any chance: did you ride an H1 or H2
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:53 PM   #25
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By any chance: did you ride an H1 or H2
I put several 1000s miles on my 2T engines on highway trips but I didn't have the privilege to ride on those H....

3 cyl 2T are amazing.... Pure poetry....



I remember (rare event) the Suzi GT380...
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Old 10-01-2020, 01:27 PM   #26
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A good friend of mine had an H2 with Denco pipes. When that thing got up on those pipes: it was almost a religious experience!
I only had the tiniest baby brother: the S1 it was as smooth as a Swiss watch; but made no power until you got it almost to redline. )
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:22 PM   #27
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....cut....
Also, besides Ford efforts to move the customer to the ecoboost engine, more than 1/2 of customers don't want (me included) that engine.
So whatever was the reason to put the 5.0 in the F150 (stop gap? eco terrorists in marketing?, etc) that was not a wise decision.
....cut....

From a technology standpoint, I like EcoBoost engines in theory. However, from a cost perspective, I couldn’t agree more. This is even more the case with larger vehicles (trucks and motorhomes) where fuel economy differences between EcoBoost and a larger engine are insignificant. Under heavy loads an EB can even burn more gas. Regardless, it doesn’t take many repairs or added service to wipe out 1 MPG gain.

Regarding 5.0L in F-150, they’ve been used for a very long time. The first were 5.0L (302 cubic inch) small block V8s. Eventually that was replaced with 4.6L Triton V8 which was later increased to 5.0L. The present 5.0L Coyote is quite a bit more powerful than the original 4.6L Triton of that engine family.

Anyway, power is just power, and if a naturally aspirated engine lacks displacement to the point of having lower torque rating, then it has to make it up with RPMs. Not that there’s much wrong with that — it has pros and cons.

Drivers generally like lower RPM, and if a naturally aspirated engine is made larger, fuel economy suffers a bit at lower power requirements. However, with new 10-speed transmissions and cylinder deactivation, OEMs are able to increase displacement without taking a big MPG hit.

Ford will supposedly make cylinder deactivation available on new 5.0L F-150, and I expect the same may happen with 6.8L V8 to get decent fuel economy when lightly loaded. Personally, I prefer a simple drivetrain even if it has less power in order to preserve fuel economy.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:26 PM   #28
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Personally, I prefer a simple drivetrain even if it has less power in order to preserve fuel economy.
Ok I have to: Can't get much simpler than an electric motor connected to a differential.... (Well ok mechanically...)
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:32 PM   #29
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There's an old saying: "Horsepower gets you up to speed; but it's torque that drives you deeper into that oak tree!"
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:55 PM   #30
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Ford will supposedly make cylinder deactivation available on new 5.0L F-150, and I expect the same may happen with 6.8L V8 to get decent fuel economy when lightly loaded. Personally, I prefer a simple drivetrain even if it has less power in order to preserve fuel economy.
If you, like me, buy a truck to do any sensible work (in my case tow 9000lbs) you don't care for theoretical fuel savings that never realize in real life and you start to hate all that crap they use to pass the government test when you realize you are paying at least $15K more for the vehicle because of it AND the additional complexity (which even the OEM have trouble figuring out how to make it work) with tons of sensors (that will fail eventually) etc. only increase operational cost and quickly wipe out any savings in fuel....
In summary, the politicians got power, Ford increased profit and we where (again) screwed...

My 2018 F150 with 10 speed transmission towing 9000lbs used to do 9mpg, before that I was towing a 6000lbs camper with a BMW X5 designed in the 90s that have a 3L engine and 5 spd transmission and that would get me 10mpg towing ....
I sold the F150 because Ford could not make the transmission shift (which is does all the time) right....I still have the BMW...
There is a reason Ford went with an "old school" 7.3L V8 where the government interfere less...: That is the recipe for a good working powerplant if you don't need to submit yourself to the lunacy of politics...
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Old 10-02-2020, 03:15 PM   #31
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Ok I have to: Can't get much simpler than an electric motor connected to a differential.... (Well ok mechanically...)

No argument from me. When I was in school, the mechanical engineering department worked on various electric and hybrid car and bus projects, and the greatest challenge was getting range out of lead-acid batteries (yeah, that was many decades ago). Drive motors were relatively easy. Decades later, battery energy capacity remains the main issue even though itís about 10 times better.

For an Axis like yours, you need an average of around 100 HP to cruise down the road at highway speeds, so youíd need close to 100 kW-hour of battery for every hour of driving. As weíve discussed in other threads, cost is probably no longer the main challenge, but weight of +/- 500 kW-hour of batteries could weigh down a compact motorhome the size of Axis. Not that cost isnít an issue still.
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Old 10-02-2020, 03:37 PM   #32
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.....cut....

There is a reason Ford went with an "old school" 7.3L V8 where the government interfere less...: That is the recipe for a good working powerplant if you don't need to submit yourself to the lunacy of politics...

Iím curious, if you had a choice for a new F-150 (hypothetical question), would you prefer a smaller version of the cam-in-block OHV 7.3L, or would you pay a premium for a larger version of the 5.0L Coyote like you had?

Based on specific power and torque output of the two engines, Iíd guess that a 6.8L DOHC V8 should make about 100 HP and 100 lb-ft more.
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Old 10-02-2020, 03:52 PM   #33
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If you had asked me :

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Old 10-02-2020, 03:55 PM   #34
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Iím curious, if you had a choice for a new F-150 (hypothetical question), would you prefer a smaller version of the cam-in-block OHV 7.3L, or would you pay a premium for a larger version of the 5.0L Coyote like you had?

Based on specific power and torque output of the two engines, Iíd guess that a 6.8L DOHC V8 should make about 100 HP and 100 lb-ft more.
I'm not bashing the Coyote (I'm bashing the 10spd transmission, though) it is a really nice engine but it was developed for the Mustang, it wants to rev. When going up hill towing I used to joke with my kids that it sounds like a mustang.. haha
That is the reason that lead me to think that Ford put that engine there as a stop gap hoping to convince the customer that the Ecoboost is the way to go and later just killing V8s on the F150... It backfired in my view...


As for to have a choice, I special ordered that F150 for towing, had to wait 2 months to get it for I wanted max payload with the V8 engine(it had 2700lbs payload capacity!) and I was thinking to keep it for a long time but the transmissions problems made me change my mind.....


I would like to see the F150 with the 7.3L in a 6 or 8 spd max transmission which I understand will get a better real life fuel mileage with that wonderful feeling of low end torque.



I had the opportunity to compare the 2018 coyote with the 10 spd transmission towing 9000lbs against a 2014 F250 with 6spd transmission and the 6.2L V8 towing 12000lbs during a camping vacation with friends where we drove 50 miles together... The F250 did 9mpg and my F150 did 8.5mpg... That 6.2L is also an old design ... Imagine if it was the 7.3L...
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Old 10-02-2020, 04:02 PM   #35
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For an Axis like yours, you need an average of around 100 HP to cruise down the road at highway speeds, so youíd need close to 100 kW-hour of battery for every hour of driving. As weíve discussed in other threads, cost is probably no longer the main challenge, but weight of +/- 500 kW-hour of batteries could weigh down a compact motorhome the size of Axis. Not that cost isnít an issue still.
Cost and C rate (rate of charge) continue to be the two main technical challenges that electrical drivetrains face today.
Cost is the reason we don't see anyone offering the electrical version at a lower cost than the gas version, even after they have artificially inflated the cost of the gas versions with emissions stuff.
You take all the emissions stuff from the gas cars and the cost issue become even more difficult to overcome...
Then you need to add the geopolitical problems on moving from a energy source that we have control to materials that China control and then there is inflation for the cost of electric energy will increase meaning all your meals, just to give an example, will become more expensive, etc...


The reality is that electrification is bringing nothing to the consumer but is an offer to pay more to receive less...
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Old 10-02-2020, 04:45 PM   #36
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I don't think that our electrical grid could withstand a mass migration to electric vehicles...
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Old 10-02-2020, 07:06 PM   #37
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.....cut....

I had the opportunity to compare the 2018 coyote with the 10 spd transmission towing 9000lbs against a 2014 F250 with 6spd transmission and the 6.2L V8 towing 12000lbs during a camping vacation with friends where we drove 50 miles together... The F250 did 9mpg and my F150 did 8.5mpg... That 6.2L is also an old design ... Imagine if it was the 7.3L...

Regarding engine design age, the 5.0L Coyote V8 origins date back to 1990 production as a 4.6L Modular V8, so roots are 30 years old. The 6.2L Boss V8 dates back to 2010 production, so itís much newer by comparison. However, Iím not sure how meaningful any of this is because theyíve gone through so many revisions and upgrades through the years, particularly the Modular engine.

One detail of interest is that the 6.2L and newer 7.3L reportedly share the same 115 MM bore centers, so Ford could use some of the same manufacturing tooling as a means to lower costs. That being the case, I can see Ford possibly increasing the 6.2L up to 6.8L and not just reducing the 7.3L down to 6.8L as many have assumed.

Two things we know is that the 5.0L Coyote canít be made much larger because of its small 100 MM bore spacing, and also that the 6.2L V8 which only goes into Super Duty pickups has been replaced in part by the optional 7.3L V8. Manufacturing volume must be so low that itís difficult to imagine the Boss engine family remaining in production unless Ford can also use it in other vehicles like Mustang and F-150, or by upgrading capabilities to make it more desirable than the larger 7.3L.
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Old 10-02-2020, 07:34 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by RACarvalho View Post
Cost and C rate (rate of charge) continue to be the two main technical challenges that electrical drivetrains face today.
Cost is the reason we don't see anyone offering the electrical version at a lower cost than the gas version, even after they have artificially inflated the cost of the gas versions with emissions stuff.
You take all the emissions stuff from the gas cars and the cost issue become even more difficult to overcome...
Then you need to add the geopolitical problems on moving from a energy source that we have control to materials that China control and then there is inflation for the cost of electric energy will increase meaning all your meals, just to give an example, will become more expensive, etc...


The reality is that electrification is bringing nothing to the consumer but is an offer to pay more to receive less...
EVs are moving away from materials controlled by foreign nations (and other nations are also picking up the slack--including the US) so this won't be an issue long term.

Battery costs are falling at faster and faster rates making the cost difference close (some say parity earlier than 2025).

In addition: you can't really neglect the cost of emissions equipment on gas cars because that is a major reason people buy EVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman
I don't think that our electrical grid could withstand a mass migration to electric vehicles...
It won't have to: Even if all car sales went 100% electric in an instant you still wouldn't see a "mass migration"--it would take 10 years or more to completely replace gas cars with EVs.
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Old 10-02-2020, 08:58 PM   #39
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.....cut...

Battery costs are falling at faster and faster rates making the cost difference close (some say parity earlier than 2025).

.....cut....
What is the lowest cost Electric Car sold in US today? I mean real car for 4 adults with air conditioning, etc., and minimum of 100 mile range, not some limited-production 4-wheel open-body scooter marketed as a car.

Iím aware a few auto CEOs predict electric cars will soon be cheaper to own and operate. I can see that in a few years, but also think the larger trucks and RVs which often travel longer distances will take longer.
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:35 PM   #40
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Elon Musk has recently mentioned an EV with a starting price of $25,000
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