New Ford 6.8L

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Those 383's were not revvers...
We had one in a Sport Fury (1968), and our family station wagon (with a 440...) would eat it's lunch.

Sorry Dude, that's simply not true. Plus it had a ton of torque. I forgot mention it was warmed over; Some examples:

505 lift, 310 duration
High dome pistons
3-angle valve job
Block decked 5mil, heads 5 mil
12.5:1 compression
Tunnel ram and 2-fours
Hooker headers w/hush thrush mufflers

Could breathe it in and exhale.

Dana 60 rear end with ladder bars.

Could jump a coke bottle from a dead stop.

[Bob Denman]

True... with enough "under the hood time": anything is possible.

But I was talking bone boring stock...

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

What is the lowest cost Electric Car sold in US today? I mean real car for 4 adults with air conditioning, etc., and minimum of 100 mile range, not some limited-production 4-wheel open-body scooter marketed as a car.

I’m aware a few auto CEOs predict electric cars will soon be cheaper to own and operate. I can see that in a few years, but also think the larger trucks and RVs which often travel longer distances will take longer.

Well you can get one for under $1000 LOL but I'm sure that isn't what you're asking.

Counting the $7500 tax rebate you can pick up a Hyundai Ioniq Electric for around $20k.

Its around the same for the latest Nissan Leaf (about $23k after the $7500 rebate).

Granted you take the $7500 off your income taxes and not the car's price (thus if you don't owe or haven't paid $7500 in taxes then you don't get that credit).

So we're not quite there yet on purchase price...

Owning and operating we're already well under: my Bolt only costs me about $50 in electricity for 1000 miles/month driving. Only other maintenance has been the occasional tire rotation and so far I haven't paid for one..Chevy keeps comping me the rotations!?

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

True... with enough "under the hood time": anything is possible.

But I was talking bone boring stock...

Then the 440 ate its lunch. One with a 6 pack would get it dinner too.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Well you can get one for under $1000 LOL but I'm sure that isn't what you're asking.

Counting the $7500 tax rebate you can pick up a Hyundai Ioniq Electric for around $20k.

Its around the same for the latest Nissan Leaf (about $23k after the $7500 rebate).

Granted you take the $7500 off your income taxes and not the car's price (thus if you don't owe or haven't paid $7500 in taxes then you don't get that credit).

So we're not quite there yet on purchase price...

Owning and operating we're already well under: my Bolt only costs me about $50 in electricity for 1000 miles/month driving. Only other maintenance has been the occasional tire rotation and so far I haven't paid for one..Chevy keeps comping me the rotations!?

Thank you.

I like the Leaf’s appearance much better, not that either looks as clean as most Tesla models. Since it’s offered with two battery sizes (neglecting larger motor cost and weight), the incremental cost comes out to around $300/kWh and the weight around 15 pounds/kWh. For city driving the smaller battery would suffice, although I wouldn’t want to go on a road trip with such limited range.

Anyway, I’m surprised Nissan hasn’t worked harder at getting Cd below 0.28. At freeway speeds that could limit range compared to EPA highway cycle. For us an entry-level EV could easily serve as a second vehicle.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Chance

cut...

Drivers generally like lower RPM, and if a naturally aspirated engine is made larger, fuel economy suffers a bit at lower power requirements. However, with new 10-speed transmissions and cylinder deactivation, OEMs are able to increase displacement without taking a big MPG hit.

cut...

Drivers may prefer lower RPM because they don't like what they think they hear. I dislike it for other reasons - pistons, rings, bearings, etc.

They build these things on a cutaway chassis. Not all, but most. Then manufacturers add all the weight. That leads to higher revs that take they're toll on wear, tear and simple things like oil.

When I get my oil changed, I always try to smell the old oil to tell if it's burnt. That's how I know I've pushed it too hard and either need to back off or change oil more often. Terrain has its affect to a significant degree. Travel the flatlands of the south and the oil looks clear at 3k and smells fresh. Make a run in the upper north mountainous areas and the picture significantly changes. You may find it's burnt at 2 or 2500.

All this is just my experience with the V10, which is part of why I cited it should go. When I hit a 2% grade on CC and she drops 2mph then downshifts, that's absolutely insane in my book. I'd gladly give up 5mph before she even thought about downshifting. I'm not dropping $500 on on a 5 star to fix it. That's insane.

All just JMHO.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

Thank you.

I like the Leaf’s appearance much better, not that either looks as clean as most Tesla models. Since it’s offered with two battery sizes (neglecting larger motor cost and weight), the incremental cost comes out to around $300/kWh and the weight around 15 pounds/kWh. For city driving the smaller battery would suffice, although I wouldn’t want to go on a road trip with such limited range.

Anyway, I’m surprised Nissan hasn’t worked harder at getting Cd below 0.28. At freeway speeds that could limit range compared to EPA highway cycle. For us an entry-level EV could easily serve as a second vehicle.

If you're looking for an entry level city EV and aren't opposed to used ones look around for used first gen EVs. They are dirt cheap.

Used Leaf's and Focus Electric's can be found for $7000 and up depending on miles. The pertinent question to ask the sellers of these vehicles are: How much battery degredation are they showing? (The Focuses will likely be showing less than the Leaf's because the Focus has an active battery management system; the Leaf's batteries are air cooled. You'd also want to ask the Focus seller if the car has ever had the dreaded "Stop Safely Now" problems. Yeah ok brand new vehicles wouldn't have these issues LOL)

[Bob Denman]

What if you buy that $7000 used EV, and it needs a battery?
How much does that cost?

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

What if you buy that $7000 used EV, and it needs a battery?
How much does that cost?

Don't buy the EV then....That is what the "how much battery degredation have you seen?" question will help to answer. If they say the battery is 50% gone run away.

EV's aren't like cellphones where two years later your battery is shot (and not like the silly charger in the RV either). They usually have pretty sophisticated battery management systems that work to prevent total battery failure.

In addition they have long battery warranties (the Focus Electric has an 8 year battery warranty). Thus a 2014 Focus Electric's warranty won't expire until 2022. Of course I'm not sure if that transfers across owner's...

If that concerns you pick up an extended warranty that covers the battery cost with the used car.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by The_Breeze

....cut....

All this is just my experience with the V10, which is part of why I cited it should go. When I hit a 2% grade on CC and she drops 2mph then downshifts, that's absolutely insane in my book. I'd gladly give up 5mph before she even thought about downshifting. I'm not dropping $500 on on a 5 star to fix it. That's insane.

All just JMHO.

What you have experienced with V10 is a common issue with many naturally aspirated engines unless they have some form of variable displacement, like a V8 running on 4 cylinders. And that technology isn’t very effective in large trucks and motorhomes anyway, so not a “viable” solution for what you described. It’s not a V10 issue in that it frequently also happens with V8s and V6s. It’s all caused by need to save gas as much as possible.

The problem most drivers don’t understand is extremely predictable with simple math. Some engineers get it, but drivers don’t like it, so they try to “fix” the problem with software. And most of the time it’s not a fix because it’s not broken; it works the best way even if drivers don’t appreciate it.

Example: The engine in a large motorhome or equal-size truck that gets around 8 MPG may be making around 100 HP depending on speed, and if spinning in range of 2,250 RPM like a Class C similar to yours, is working at around 60% of available torque. That’s a selected compromise to save fuel while providing reasonable drivability.

When you encounter a 2% grade, power requirement suddenly could go from 100 to 150 HP, and if RPM is kept the same at 2,250, torque would jump from 60% to 90% of available, which isn’t ideal for fuel economy or engine wear. It’s better for motorhome to downshift from 6th to 5th to increase RPM and reduce torque below 90%.

It’s possible to reprogram software to force transmission to stay in 6th gear and make engine work at near-maximum available torque, but what makes these guys think they are helping matters? Just because they achieve what they want doesn’t mean they made conditions better.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

What you have experienced with V10 is a common issue with many naturally aspirated engines unless they have some form of variable displacement, like a V8 running on 4 cylinders. And that technology isn’t very effective in large trucks and motorhomes anyway, so not a “viable” solution for what you described. It’s not a V10 issue in that it frequently also happens with V8s and V6s. It’s all caused by need to save gas as much as possible.

The problem most drivers don’t understand is extremely predictable with simple math. Some engineers get it, but drivers don’t like it, so they try to “fix” the problem with software. And most of the time it’s not a fix because it’s not broken; it works the best way even if drivers don’t appreciate it.

Example: The engine in a large motorhome or equal-size truck that gets around 8 MPG may be making around 100 HP depending on speed, and if spinning in range of 2,250 RPM like a Class C similar to yours, is working at around 60% of available torque. That’s a selected compromise to save fuel while providing reasonable drivability.

When you encounter a 2% grade, power requirement suddenly could go from 100 to 150 HP, and if RPM is kept the same at 2,250, torque would jump from 60% to 90% of available, which isn’t ideal for fuel economy or engine wear. It’s better for motorhome to downshift from 6th to 5th to increase RPM and reduce torque below 90%.

It’s possible to reprogram software to force transmission to stay in 6th gear and make engine work at near-maximum available torque, but what makes these guys think they are helping matters? Just because they achieve what they want doesn’t mean they made conditions better.

That is easy to "fix" without a 5-Star...you just have to pay attention.

When driving our Axis on cruise control and approaching a hill/rise/grade/etc. I'll just tap the gas pedal just enough to force a downshift right at the bottom of the hill. The cruise will then hold it in that gear up the hill without it dropping much speed at all.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

That is easy to "fix" without a 5-Star...you just have to pay attention.

When driving our Axis on cruise control and approaching a hill/rise/grade/etc. I'll just tap the gas pedal just enough to force a downshift right at the bottom of the hill. The cruise will then hold it in that gear up the hill without it dropping much speed at all.

I'll try that. In NC where I'll have that chance. I usually kill CC and use my foot. If she stays where she belongs, at least for a good part of the way then downshifts, I let that be. I don't want to labor the motor and the constant downshifting is not only annoying, it's concerning for the mentioned reasons.

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Don't buy the EV then....That is what the "how much battery degredation have you seen?" question will help to answer. If they say the battery is 50% gone run away....

"Battery degradation"... Thanks!

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

That is easy to "fix" without a 5-Star...you just have to pay attention.

When driving our Axis on cruise control and approaching a hill/rise/grade/etc. I'll just tap the gas pedal just enough to force a downshift right at the bottom of the hill. The cruise will then hold it in that gear up the hill without it dropping much speed at all.

The other easy fix is to change final gearing so that engine normally runs at higher RPM, lower Brake Mean Effective Pressure (torque), and thus has greater reserve power during normal conditions.

In the example I gave above, if final gearing is changed so that the same 100 HP was at 2,700 instead of 2,250 RPM, then torque would drop to less than 50% of available. That means that the same 2% grade that increases required power from 100 to 150 HP would increase torque from <50 to <75% of available. And since 75% torque is very manageable, the transmission could remain in top gear.

The main problem is that the engine running at 2,700 RPM and about 50% torque will burn a little more fuel than at 2,250 RPM and 60% torque. That’s basically the way vehicles were geared decades ago, which made frequent downshifts on rolling hills not as necessary.

I suppose that when we are all driving electric cars and RVs with one fixed gear, there won’t be any shifting complaints.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

The other easy fix is to change final gearing so that engine normally runs at higher RPM, lower Brake Mean Effective Pressure (torque), and thus has greater reserve power during normal conditions.

In the example I gave above, if final gearing is changed so that the same 100 HP was at 2,700 instead of 2,250 RPM, then torque would drop to less than 50% of available. That means that the same 2% grade that increases required power from 100 to 150 HP would increase torque from <50 to <75% of available. And since 75% torque is very manageable, the transmission could remain in top gear.

The main problem is that the engine running at 2,700 RPM and about 50% torque will burn a little more fuel than at 2,250 RPM and 60% torque. That’s basically the way vehicles were geared decades ago, which made frequent downshifts on rolling hills not as necessary.

I suppose that when we are all driving electric cars and RVs with one fixed gear, there won’t be any shifting complaints.

Well changing gears isn't quite as easy as simply changing your driving behavior (well ok its hard to change your behavior LOL).

I see what you did there LOL...

[JamieGeek]

Going back to the cheap EV topic for a second:
https://insideevs.com/features/41003...ls-this-month/

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Going back to the cheap EV topic for a second:
https://insideevs.com/features/41003...ls-this-month/

Two questions I’m curious about related to your Chevy Bolt:

Does it display energy use per mile like Teslas? If so, have you observed at different steady-state speeds? I’m primarily interested in knowing vehicle range when driven at higher speeds like 70 MPH.

We’ve discussed this before, but I’ll ask again to see if anything has changed. Has anyone figured out how to use the car’s battery energy storage to power an independent inverter so they can power motorhome or house 120-Volt loads? When used as a toad, if boondocking occasionally for a night or two between campgrounds, it’d be great to power motorhome’s A/C at night, etc.

It seems like such a waste to have all that battery capacity sitting idle instead of putting it to work like the F-150’s Pro Power Onboard. And your car has so much more battery capacity.

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by Chance

...We’ve discussed this before, but I’ll ask again to see if anything has changed. Has anyone figured out how to use the car’s battery energy storage to power an independent inverter so they can power motorhome or house 120-Volt loads? When used as a toad, if boondocking occasionally for a night or two between campgrounds, it’d be great to power motorhome’s A/C at night, etc...

That seems to be easy (unless I'm seriously missing something...): attach a decent inverter to your battery leads, and plug it to the coach...
How much wattage (or amperage) are we talking about?

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

Two questions I’m curious about related to your Chevy Bolt:

Does it display energy use per mile like Teslas? If so, have you observed at different steady-state speeds? I’m primarily interested in knowing vehicle range when driven at higher speeds like 70 MPH.

We’ve discussed this before, but I’ll ask again to see if anything has changed. Has anyone figured out how to use the car’s battery energy storage to power an independent inverter so they can power motorhome or house 120-Volt loads? When used as a toad, if boondocking occasionally for a night or two between campgrounds, it’d be great to power motorhome’s A/C at night, etc.

It seems like such a waste to have all that battery capacity sitting idle instead of putting it to work like the F-150’s Pro Power Onboard. And your car has so much more battery capacity.

Yes the trip meter shows average miles per kWh. Around town it will easily go up to 4.5 or so in the summer, in the winter not so much due to heater usage. On the highway it will run around 3.5 - 3.7 depending on how fast you go (note that the newer model year Bolts have a slightly bigger battery than mine and thus have an EPA range of around 250+ to my 238). If I go 70 mph I can get more than 190 miles out of it (at least I've made a few round trips on the highway of about 190 miles and have come home with some miles to spare so I know I can at least go that far).

I think the problem with having an inverter on the traction battery (as they call it) is that you get about 350 volts out of it so you'd need something custom (actually only have to turn that into A/C and then use a step-down transformer really). Well the opposite of the charger circutry already in the car (there is considerable talk about using an EV to backup the grid: leave the car plugged in and when the grid needs juice the car provides it, and when the grid is overproducing the car gets charged).

I haven't seen any consumer level products that would allow you to plug in a 120v plug into an EV.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Chance

cut...

I suppose that when we are all driving electric cars and RVs with one fixed gear, there won’t be any shifting complaints.

Thanks for that one - seriously.