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Old 01-08-2021, 11:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
Care to expound on that?

45 Amp converter vs 160 Amp alternator?
Your chassis battery is connected to the alternator with a heavy gauge battery cable pumping the full 160 amp alternator charge into that battery just like every other vehicle. Your coach batteries are connected to that same charging system with a much small gauge wire attempting to charge 2 50% depleted batteries at extremely reduced rate due to wire size. Traveling 8-10 hours your chassis battery if discharged 50% will be completely charged in a matter of a couple hours with the alternator, but your your 50% coach batteries will most likely be at about 60% when you stop.
If running the generator all 12 volt items in the coach are powered up plus full amperage of your converter charging the batteries.
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Old 01-08-2021, 11:21 PM   #22
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Hey there,

This is Quantum.

The last note was a alternator vs the generator while driving?? New and confused still on the battery use and now on the recharge while driving.

I pretty good with most everything not electrical related. So I ask a lot of questions to try to learn more. But now I'm
What Ted said was "It depends." For the converter output, the voltage is only 14.2 volts during the absorptive stage. Most of the heavy charging (about 80%) is during the bulk phase where the converter is trying to force 50 amps or so into the battery and the voltage will vary from 13.6 to 14.1 volts. The temperature of the converter (or batteries if you have them so wired) determines the actual voltage profile to avoid boiling flooded batteries over.


As for the engine's alternator, its max output is dependent on: its max capability, the type of regulator, the rpm and temperature of the alternator. Alternators are usually rated at 6,000 rpm and 70 F degrees internal temperature. 6,000 alternator rpm is about 2,400 engine rpm, but the output is not linear, so it is capable of outputting 40 amps as low as 1,500 alternator rpm (engine idle in gear). Heat is always a problem. The alternator's regulator assumes the battery is at the same temperature as the alternator. Copper windings increase in resistance as they heat up. So, assuming 2,400 engine rpm 160 amp rated alternator and 120 degree, alternator the max output would be 81 amps
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Old 01-09-2021, 12:06 PM   #23
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Smile

Iím not smart enough to contribute anything to this thread. However, having read several threads concerning batteries, when my current lead acid house batteries bite the bullet, Iím replacing them with lithium ion. When that point gets here Iíll ask Ace and Chance what they recommend. They sound like they know what theyíre talking about.
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Old 01-09-2021, 04:27 PM   #24
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I'm With you there. I have been reading up on the AGM and the lithium to replace my batteries if I have a bad ride south. Although more expensive it appears that the AGM have more deep cycles possible 2 times over the wets. Also, the lithium are even more expensive. So trying to find the sweet spot with some sense of knowledge...LOL.

If I am correct I may be able to put up to 3 of the AGM in the same space as the wet cells.

I've been looking at CHIN and Duracell ultra premium 100 to 105AH... See this I am already getting better.... Hahaa the average price I see is around $240 per battery. If I am correct the safe feeling is well worth the money.

If you want to feel free to pass onto those you trust as it can only help me in my decision.
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Old 01-09-2021, 05:00 PM   #25
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I'm With you there. I have been reading up on the AGM and the lithium to replace my batteries if I have a bad ride south. Although more expensive it appears that the AGM have more deep cycles possible 2 times over the wets. Also, the lithium are even more expensive. So trying to find the sweet spot with some sense of knowledge...LOL.

If I am correct I may be able to put up to 3 of the AGM in the same space as the wet cells.

I've been looking at CHIN and Duracell ultra premium 100 to 105AH... See this I am already getting better.... Hahaa the average price I see is around $240 per battery. If I am correct the safe feeling is well worth the money.

If you want to feel free to pass onto those you trust as it can only help me in my decision.
AGM and flooded batteries use the same chemistry, so the number of cycles and depth of discharge are the same. Since AGM batteries have absorptive glass mats between the plates there is less room for lead in the battery case, resulting in a slightly lower amp-h capacity for a given battery case size. The major advantages of AGMs over flooded are any position mounting, no watering and low self-discharge. You may read many other claimed advantages of AGMs but careful reading of the Trojan and Lifeline specifications show little differences in the capabilities of AGM and flooded batteries.

Lithium-iron-phosphate batteries (LFP) are in every way superior to all other batteries for RV use remembering they should not be charged when they are below freezing. This should not be a problem for most. LFP batteries do require a different charging profile (usually a new charger and BIM).
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Old 01-09-2021, 07:42 PM   #26
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Lithium-iron-phosphate batteries (LFP) are in every way superior to all other batteries for RV use remembering they should not be charged when they are below freezing. This should not be a problem for most. LFP batteries do require a different charging profile (usually a new charger and BIM).
Other than price???
For a $1000 a pop they'd better be far superior!!!!!
For that $1000 per lithium battery you could buy 3 pair of FLA batteries (bought mine at Sam's for $150 each), each pair will last approximately 5 years, that's 15 years worth of batteries, you'll need 2 lithium batteries so that's 30 years worth of FLA batteries. Will 2 lithium batteries last 30 years?
IMHO you'd have to boondock full-time to justify that kind of $$$$ on batteries.
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Old 01-09-2021, 07:57 PM   #27
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Yes, I saw those prices. I do not plan to boondock that often and the standard batteries seem the most affordable as you say and makes more sense. Even if they fail and need replacement they may be under warrantee and much cheaper. So only makes sense to keep things I have till needed for now.

Thanks
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Old 01-09-2021, 07:59 PM   #28
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Other than price???
For a $1000 a pop they'd better be far superior!!!!!
For that $1000 you could buy 3 pair of FLA batteries, each pair will last approximately 5 years, that's 15 years worth of batteries, you'll need 2 lithium batteries so that's 30 years worth of FLA batteries. Will 2 lithium batteries last 30 years?
IMHO you'd have to boondock full-time to justify that kind of $$$$ on batteries.
LFP batteries can be discharged down 100% and still maintain their usable amp-h for 3,000 to 5,000 cycles. Lead acid batteries are limited to 50% discharge to maintain 400 cycles of use. So two LFP 100 amp-h batteries can supply 200 amps-h of power at a nearly constant 12.8 to 12.6 volts, whereas, four 100 amp-h lead acid batteries can supply 200 amp-h of power with the voltages between 12.8 to 12.0 volts.
That said, there is no more economical RV battery than a CG-2 deep cycle FLA; all things considered. If weight and longevity are important considerations LiFePo Battle Born batteries win.
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Old 01-09-2021, 08:19 PM   #29
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Old 01-10-2021, 05:40 PM   #30
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AGM and flooded batteries use the same chemistry, so the number of cycles and depth of discharge are the same. Since AGM batteries have absorptive glass mats between the plates there is less room for lead in the battery case, resulting in a slightly lower amp-h capacity for a given battery case size. The major advantages of AGMs over flooded are any position mounting, no watering and low self-discharge. You may read many other claimed advantages of AGMs but careful reading of the Trojan and Lifeline specifications show little differences in the capabilities of AGM and flooded batteries.

Lithium-iron-phosphate batteries (LFP) are in every way superior to all other batteries for RV use remembering they should not be charged when they are below freezing. This should not be a problem for most. LFP batteries do require a different charging profile (usually a new charger and BIM).
Will I need to change my charger/converter to charge LFP? Also, if I have LFP should I not leave it plugged in to my house if itís below freezing?
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Old 01-10-2021, 05:51 PM   #31
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Other than price???
For a $1000 a pop they'd better be far superior!!!!!
For that $1000 per lithium battery you could buy 3 pair of FLA batteries (bought mine at Sam's for $150 each), each pair will last approximately 5 years, that's 15 years worth of batteries, you'll need 2 lithium batteries so that's 30 years worth of FLA batteries. Will 2 lithium batteries last 30 years?
IMHO you'd have to boondock full-time to justify that kind of $$$$ on batteries.
I understand the cost concern. And I donít plan to boondocks. However, in 39 years of foolin around with rvís Iíve never had a deep cycle battery last 5 years. In my experience, the first time you accidentally drain them down, the handwritings on the wall. Yes you can leave hooked up. But put em under a load and you wonít get lasting juice from them. This is just my experience. Itís kind of like my drill driver. With alkaline, as the battery loses juice, I lose power. With lithium ion, Iíve got full power until itís dead. So I may consider Spending more when I replace em.
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Old 01-10-2021, 06:57 PM   #32
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I agree, any battery that was in any RV on the dealer's lot will not last 5 years.
Any battery that has been abused (drained below 20% at any time) will not last 5 years.
Sometimes you can do everything right with a new battery and still only get two years out of it. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw.

But as anecdotal evidence, in April it will 5 years since we bought our ACE used. During the PDI I discovered the house batteries were toast and made them replace them with new ones (two standard RV/Marine Group 31 in parallel). We boondock a couple of times a year and I have installed a DC volt/Ammeter in the inside panel, so it's easy to tell with a glance what the battery bank voltage is and verify the converter isn't "cooking" them (13.1 VDC float).

So far they continue to work as expected. In addition, the OEM chassis battery (which is about a year older) is still going strong as well.
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Old 01-10-2021, 10:23 PM   #33
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Will I need to change my charger/converter to charge LFP? Also, if I have LFP should I not leave it plugged in to my house if itís below freezing?
Depends on the battery manufacturer, but most say to get the max charge in the battery you need 14.6 volts for the battery manager to equalize the cells according to Battle Born. Here are the quote from the Battle Born site:
Charging Voltages/Parameters:
  • Bulk/absorb: 14.2 Ė 14.6 V
  • Float: 13.6 V or lower
  • No equalization (or set it to 14.4 V)
  • No temperature compensation
  • Absorption time: is 30 minutes per battery (if itís an option)

Any lithium battery has a battery management circuit to control the individual cells. This circuitry will prevent the batteries from being charged when any of the individual cells are below 32.2 degrees F.

The other problem is using the engine's alternator to charge the lithium battery. Lithium batteries have virtually no electrical resistance and if hooked directly to the alternator can cause the alternator to overheat and fail. It is recommended you install a DC to DC converter in the circuit to regulate the current going to the lithium battery.
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Old 01-11-2021, 12:50 AM   #34
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Batteries

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Depends on the battery manufacturer, but most say to get the max charge in the battery you need 14.6 volts for the battery manager to equalize the cells according to Battle Born. Here are the quote from the Battle Born site:
Charging Voltages/Parameters:
  • Bulk/absorb: 14.2 Ė 14.6 V
  • Float: 13.6 V or lower
  • No equalization (or set it to 14.4 V)
  • No temperature compensation
  • Absorption time: is 30 minutes per battery (if itís an option)

Any lithium battery has a battery management circuit to control the individual cells. This circuitry will prevent the batteries from being charged when any of the individual cells are below 32.2 degrees F.

The other problem is using the engine's alternator to charge the lithium battery. Lithium batteries have virtually no electrical resistance and if hooked directly to the alternator can cause the alternator to overheat and fail. It is recommended you install a DC to DC converter in the circuit to regulate the current going to the lithium battery.



I have 2 100 amh Duracell ultra's. They charge up to 13.4 to 14 and then gen starts within an hour and the amperage is down to 12. I am starting to believe the batteries are worn after only 1 year old. this is with running just the led lights , and the propane heater blower. I played with turning on the fridge (residental) and it cooled down fine but the generator ran for almost an hour to recharge the 2 house batteries before shutting off. Then started again in an hour??

My first call tomorrow is the Batter store on the warrantee ??
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Old 01-11-2021, 01:35 AM   #35
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I have 2 100 amh Duracell ultra's. They charge up to 13.4 to 14 and then gen starts within an hour and the amperage is down to 12. I am starting to believe the batteries are worn after only 1 year old. this is with running just the led lights , and the propane heater blower. I played with turning on the fridge (residental) and it cooled down fine but the generator ran for almost an hour to recharge the 2 house batteries before shutting off. Then started again in an hour??

My first call tomorrow is the Batter store on the warrantee ??
You probably are not fully charging the batteries you have. During the bulk charge stage the charger will read less than 14.2 volts. When your charger switches to absorptive stage, the battery voltage will be stable at 14.2 volts until the batteries are fully charged. With a 50 amp charger and a couple batteries needing 100 amps of charge this usually takes 4 to 6 hours to fully charge the batteries. After fully charging the batteries will have a surface charge of 13 volts or so The only real way to test the batteries is with a hydrometer or a battery load tester.
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Old 01-11-2021, 02:54 AM   #36
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Will do the test and see. Also, the house battery read out show full charge at the 13.6 to 14. The first day the drive will be about 5 hours and if not fully charging is part of the issue they should be charges up when I land for the first night. Either way the Generator will make up for the power needed when parked as needed. Mostly wanted to assure the heater keeps us warm till we get to a more moderate temperature. that would be 2 to 3 nights at the longest point.
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Old 01-11-2021, 03:07 AM   #37
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this is pretty much why I like gas fridges for my outdoor travels
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Old 01-11-2021, 12:45 PM   #38
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Follow up on charging and driving

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this is pretty much why I like gas fridges for my outdoor travels
While driving if the generator starts as we are driving and the alternator is also sending power to the house batteries. Does on source of charging - alternator/generator take over or do the two work together.

I guess I would want to assure as long as the engine is running the alternator from the cab will keep power the inverter to run it all as well as charge the house? Or do the 2 work in tandem.
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Old 01-13-2021, 07:48 PM   #39
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Sounds about right, we have the same set up I think about 6 hours.it is surprising how many things are powered by the inverter that powers the fridge. The bedroom TV, the dash radio are just a couple.
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Old 01-13-2021, 08:07 PM   #40
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Thank you. That's encouraging.

What do you keep or use for batteries. I am replacing mine before we leave. I ask this as you are the first one that I recall having the same RV and equipment.

While I'm at it have you had any auto level errors? I have the LCI controller and I am having trouble clearing my jack errors after scraping one on a curb after fueling up.

Thanks
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