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Old 03-04-2020, 11:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
Ground and neutral are normally bonded at the "source". They are bonded at the main panel in your home. If bonded at the "load" (your RV) then the GFCI in your home may see different current on the neutral leg than the hot leg because some current may return on the ground leg. This is what trips the GFCI.

You do have at least one GFCI circuit in your RV as well, certainly in the bathroom, maybe near the kitchen sink, outdoor receptacle, and fridge.
all of these are covered by one GFI outlet. The fridge is not required to be on a GFI circuit. I would not want mine on a GFI. It trips and you are not around you have lost everything.
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Old 03-05-2020, 01:25 AM   #22
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Had the exact same issue with a new 2017 Freedom Elite 30FE. Found the ground and neutral was shorted when I checked the end of the cord with a DMM. Took it back to Camping World and their ďMaster ElectricianĒ told me to stick to what I was good at because there is no problem as this is a false indication. I told him I was a 30+ year aircraft electrician and electricity is electricity. Basically, a GFCI is verifying the same-ish current is returning to the outlet as what left it. If not, then it went somewhere else; to ground in my case. It trips to prevent shock/electrocution. If I were touching a surface attached to the RV ground and another metal surface, then I would become the conduit.

I had Thor send the wiring diagrams for the coach. I checked the outlets until I found one that was shorted between return and ground. Then I used the diagrams to figure out which circuit it was in. I disconnected the wires leaving the first outlet in the circuit on the way to the second. If the short was still present then I knew it was between the outlet and the breaker panel ground/neutral busses. If it wasnít there then I reconnected the wires and went to the second outlet and did the same until I isolated the short between two outlets. The wiring between the outlets ran under the fridge. I found a house siding screw drove through the wiring behind the drawer under the fridge. Pulled the wire off the screw and viola, no more short.
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lefty02 View Post
Had the exact same issue with a new 2017 Freedom Elite 30FE. Found the ground and neutral was shorted when I checked the end of the cord with a DMM. Took it back to Camping World and their ďMaster ElectricianĒ told me to stick to what I was good at because there is no problem as this is a false indication. I told him I was a 30+ year aircraft electrician and electricity is electricity
How much do you charge by the hour?

Just kidding. I'll see what my local RV repair shop says, as well as a young electrician I found to work on my house, who find some similar mis-wiring there...

Dan
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Old 03-05-2020, 04:07 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lefty02 View Post
Had the exact same issue with a new 2017 Freedom Elite 30FE. Found the ground and neutral was shorted when I checked the end of the cord with a DMM. Took it back to Camping World and their ďMaster ElectricianĒ told me to stick to what I was good at because there is no problem as this is a false indication. I told him I was a 30+ year aircraft electrician and electricity is electricity. Basically, a GFCI is verifying the same-ish current is returning to the outlet as what left it. If not, then it went somewhere else; to ground in my case. It trips to prevent shock/electrocution. If I were touching a surface attached to the RV ground and another metal surface, then I would become the conduit.

I had Thor send the wiring diagrams for the coach. I checked the outlets until I found one that was shorted between return and ground. Then I used the diagrams to figure out which circuit it was in. I disconnected the wires leaving the first outlet in the circuit on the way to the second. If the short was still present then I knew it was between the outlet and the breaker panel ground/neutral busses. If it wasnít there then I reconnected the wires and went to the second outlet and did the same until I isolated the short between two outlets. The wiring between the outlets ran under the fridge. I found a house siding screw drove through the wiring behind the drawer under the fridge. Pulled the wire off the screw and viola, no more short.
Good info. It has to always feel good to find and resolve a problem like that. Not many people around that understand to appreciate.

I have a question. What if you have GFCI tripping and you have verified no short to ground on neutral or hot? When I expanded my driveway for new RV, the Rolling Gate Installer hit a UF-B underground wire that ran to a outdoor receptacle in backyard and my storage shed. In my infinite wisdom, I told them to leave it because I wanted to add a new receptacle close to where the RV would be. Initially (about a week) it worked great and then it started to trip. My new receptacle I added has GFCI; but before there was no GFCI on the circuit. IMO it should have a GFCI because we have pool in backyard. But now; no matter what I do when I connect the hot wire (black) that runs from the storage shed to location of old receptacle it trips my new GFCI breaker next to RV. It is as if something is wrong with the hot wire? It has me stumped. I even put new receptacles in storage shed and the original old receptacle in backyard. I can connect the Neutral & Ground wires to receptacle and nothing happens, but as soon as the black wire touches receptacle the GFCI by RV trips.
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Old 03-05-2020, 04:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
Good info. It has to always feel good to find and resolve a problem like that. Not many people around that understand to appreciate.

I have a question. What if you have GFCI tripping and you have verified no short to ground on neutral or hot? When I expanded my driveway for new RV, the Rolling Gate Installer hit a UF-B underground wire that ran to a outdoor receptacle in backyard and my storage shed. In my infinite wisdom, I told them to leave it because I wanted to add a new receptacle close to where the RV would be. Initially (about a week) it worked great and then it started to trip. My new receptacle I added has GFCI; but before there was no GFCI on the circuit. IMO it should have a GFCI because we have pool in backyard. But now; no matter what I do when I connect the hot wire (black) that runs from the storage shed to location of old receptacle it trips my new GFCI breaker next to RV. It is as if something is wrong with the hot wire? It has me stumped. I even put new receptacles in storage shed and the original old receptacle in backyard. I can connect the Neutral & Ground wires to receptacle and nothing happens, but as soon as the black wire touches receptacle the GFCI by RV trips.
Gate guys may have nicked the wire in another spot but not cut through. Leaving bare exposed.
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Old 03-05-2020, 12:47 PM   #26
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Gate guys may have nicked the wire in another spot but not cut through. Leaving bare exposed.
If exposed and dry could dirt cause it to lose voltage and trip. It was working at a point and no rain when it had stopped. Wires in old receptacle looked ( well old ) but the receptacle box had two conduits openings at bottom and I did not see that type of box at Lowes / Home Depot. I did replace the inside receptacle (not a GFCI type) and pulled the wires through the conduit which was about 18 inches. I may pull that 18 inch run out this weekend and look for exposed black wire from the old receptacle.

I think the Gates guys are clear from issue now. You would be VERY PROUD of me because I bought 2 of those professional heavy duty Splicing kits from Home Depot. I spliced in new UF-B to new GFCI receptacle to the point the Gate guys and it works fine with no issue. I then ran UF-B from Load side of new GFCI receptacle to the other leg (side going to old receptacle and storage shed) that the Gate Guys had cut.

Today; When I simply connect the old receptacle to new GFCI, it all works. GFCI does NOT trip and I have power on all receptacle. The problem occurs when I try to hook up the storage shed. Point of all of this is I conclude if wiring is bad, it may not be related to where Gate Guys dug? Maybe I have done something in moving the old wires?
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Old 03-05-2020, 12:52 PM   #27
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Very possible. Just odd that it worked for a week then degraded. If it’s not a huge undertaking, you could try running a temporary above ground wire from the power source to the outlet (disconnect the Underground wire) to see if the problem disappears. That would at least help to eliminate or verify the underground wire as the culprit.
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Old 03-05-2020, 12:55 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
If exposed and dry could dirt cause it to lose voltage and trip. It was working at a point and no rain when it had stopped. Wires in old receptacle looked ( well old ) but the receptacle box had two conduits openings at bottom and I did not see that type of box at Lowes / Home Depot. I did replace the inside receptacle (not a GFCI type) and pulled the wires through the conduit which was about 18 inches. I may pull that 18 inch run out this weekend and look for exposed black wire from the old receptacle.

I think the Gates guys are clear from issue now. You would be VERY PROUD of me because I bought 2 of those professional heavy duty Splicing kits from Home Depot. I spliced in new UF-B to new GFCI receptacle to the point the Gate guys and it works fine with no issue. I then ran UF-B from Load side of new GFCI receptacle to the other leg (side going to old receptacle and storage shed) that the Gate Guys had cut.

Today; When I simply connect the old receptacle to new GFCI, it all works. GFCI does NOT trip and I have power on all receptacle. The problem occurs when I try to hook up the storage shed. Point of all of this is I conclude if wiring is bad, it may not be related to where Gate Guys dug? Maybe I have done something in moving the old wires?
Yes bare wires exposed to dirt can cause problem Especially with GFI's. You need to call an electrician. It is not cut and dried.
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Old 03-05-2020, 01:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lefty02 View Post
Very possible. Just odd that it worked for a week then degraded. If itís not a huge undertaking, you could try running a temporary above ground wire from the power source to the outlet (disconnect the Underground wire) to see if the problem disappears. That would at least help to eliminate or verify the underground wire as the culprit.
Evidently, your latest reply came as I was posting mine. Iím trying to visualize your circuit path, but Iím a little slow and still trying to understand your issue. Normally, a black (power) wire exposed to ground would trip a breaker and possibly a GFCI. It seems the issue, as you eluded to, is the storage shed leg of the circuit. Since it seems quite a bit of rewiring has gone on, ensure all the connections are properly wired; black to black, white to white and so on.
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Old 03-05-2020, 01:38 PM   #30
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Very possible. Just odd that it worked for a week then degraded. If itís not a huge undertaking, you could try running a temporary above ground wire from the power source to the outlet (disconnect the Underground wire) to see if the problem disappears. That would at least help to eliminate or verify the underground wire as the culprit.
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Old 03-05-2020, 07:39 PM   #31
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Yes bare wires exposed to dirt can cause problem Especially with GFI's. You need to call an electrician. It is not cut and dried.
Call an Electrician!!! you mean a real one? That would be like buying some Barb B Que Sauce made in New York Besides I have years of experience shocking and electrocuting myself

FWIW it was a Electrician that wired it up originally. Why it did NOT already have a GFCI is completely inexcusable. This ground issue could date back 15 years; but we never would have known as no GFCI. I am trying to do my best to keep the new GFCI and figure out what is wrong to fix.
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Old 03-05-2020, 07:52 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Lefty02 View Post
Very possible. Just odd that it worked for a week then degraded. If itís not a huge undertaking, you could try running a temporary above ground wire from the power source to the outlet (disconnect the Underground wire) to see if the problem disappears. That would at least help to eliminate or verify the underground wire as the culprit.
I will try this this weekend. I don't have enough wire to wire to run above ground all the way to storage shed, but may try something shorter to just test the switch (that I may need to take out of storage shed). If it does need all new wiring I will be in trouble because about 25 feet is under concrete

Also per your astute observation of why it worked one week before degrading.

When I first connected it would not work at all, after some troubleshooting I completely removed the old receptacle and direct wired from new GFCI box to storage shed line in wiring with twist nuts to the Neutral, Hot & Ground wires respectively. It worked, so when I said it worked, I really meant the GFCI was not tripping and had power, I had 120VAC at the twist connections and had power to the switch and light in storage shed for about a week. So I bought new receptacle thinking the old receptacle may have been part of the issue and reconnected. Now I have the issue with the hot wire. The old receptacle box did have dirt in it where I believe Texas fire ants may have made it a home or something at some time?
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Old 03-05-2020, 08:36 PM   #33
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Wonder how much this little fella would charge? I think I can afford to hire him, but I probably would break some child labor laws and go to jail and not get to use my RV. Life is complicated.... I better just follow the instructions above.
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Old 03-06-2020, 01:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Lefty02 View Post
Evidently, your latest reply came as I was posting mine. Iím trying to visualize your circuit path, but Iím a little slow and still trying to understand your issue. Normally, a black (power) wire exposed to ground would trip a breaker and possibly a GFCI. It seems the issue, as you eluded to, is the storage shed leg of the circuit. Since it seems quite a bit of rewiring has gone on, ensure all the connections are properly wired; black to black, white to white and so on.

I got it to work (kind of) so it make be easier to pick up from what I did tonight.

The electrical flow is as below


Circuit panel 15 amp breaker => new GFCI = old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle = storage shed with switch & light.

The issue is with the wires coming out old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle going to storage shed with switch & light.

What I did today....


I cut off about 6 inches of Neutral, Ground, & Hot and then started connecting to the old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle

When I connected all 3 wires it still tripped, but when I disconnected the ground it worked. If I connect just the hot wire it did not trip, if I connect just the neutral wire it did not trip, but as soon as I add the ground wire it tripped.

So for tonight everything is working, but the ground wire in the old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle is not connected.

If this is okay I will need to splice some wires to extend the UF-B wire 6 - 8 inches so I can mount it back properly inside old receptacle box.
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Old 03-06-2020, 01:58 AM   #35
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Out of curiosity, what did the dogbone adapter look like. ..."used a dogbone adapter - plugged in the surge protector - no errors. Plugged the RV"
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Old 03-06-2020, 03:56 PM   #36
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I got it to work (kind of) so it make be easier to pick up from what I did tonight.

The electrical flow is as below


Circuit panel 15 amp breaker => new GFCI = old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle = storage shed with switch & light.

The issue is with the wires coming out old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle going to storage shed with switch & light.

What I did today....


I cut off about 6 inches of Neutral, Ground, & Hot and then started connecting to the old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle

When I connected all 3 wires it still tripped, but when I disconnected the ground it worked. If I connect just the hot wire it did not trip, if I connect just the neutral wire it did not trip, but as soon as I add the ground wire it tripped.

So for tonight everything is working, but the ground wire in the old receptacle box w/new non GFCI receptacle is not connected.

If this is okay I will need to splice some wires to extend the UF-B wire 6 - 8 inches so I can mount it back properly inside old receptacle box.
Dumb question...is anything plugged into the outlets or light switches turned on when the GFCI trips???
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Old 03-06-2020, 04:08 PM   #37
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Dumb question...is anything plugged into the outlets or light switches turned on when the GFCI trips???
Downstream, I completely disconnected the line in wire to the switch inside the storage shed.

Upstream, the 15 amp breaker feeds few things in the house and my new outdoor GFCI. They all work fine. Even when GFCI trips (it is the new receptacle I installed outside); everything else in house still works.

Right now at this moment, everything is working but there is no ground contact to the line going to shed. There is ground contact between new GFCI receptacle and the old receptacle. I have one of those AC testers and both yellows lights are on so my old and new receptacles thinks everything is okay. But if I try to connect the ground from Storage shed wire to same twist wire connector in old receptacle the breaker trips.

UPDATE:


At the moment everything is working including the GROUND to the shed!!!!

I say at the moment because everything is temporarily wired above ground. I added a new 12 inch wire of hot, neutral & ground to replace the ends of the old wire I cut off.

I need to shut it all down and spliced the wires permanently and re-bury and hope when reconnected it all works again.

Post intended for you and all to standby while I work this through as it must have been an issue with the quality of some of the wiring.

@Cavie

If there is no response from me in few hours, called the paramedics
I should be easy to find, I am the guy with the RV in Dallas
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Old 03-06-2020, 06:28 PM   #38
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Used to have a motor-home that I plugged in at storage, which worked well unless the refrigerator was on, then it would consistently trip the GFI. It never caused a problem when we were out, and plugged into park shore power, just on that fifteen amp circuit with the GFI on it. Never did figure that one out, but that motor-home is long gone, now.
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Old 03-06-2020, 06:56 PM   #39
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My GFCI problem is fixed

My issue with GFCI was due to old wires that were either nicked, exposed wiring due to insulation raveling, or simply just showing some corrosion from the moisture over a 15 year span.

I replaced the last 8 inches or so of the old wiring with this new 12-15 inch strip and everything is now grounded properly per code and NOT tripping the new GFCI.

You can see where I used a Marine grade heat adhesive shrink tubing.

Note: This problem should have been noted a long time ago had the original electrician installed a GFCI as he should have. That old receptacle box is only 5 feet from a pool !!! I never would have known until I just happened to want to add a new box in another area on the other side of the yard. This was necessitated after the Gate Installers accidentally cut a buried wire going to old receptacle. I kept thinking it was me or an issue with brand new GFCI, but the GFCI did what it is supposed to do, help save lives by telling you something is wrong.

Incidentally the new GFCI box is inside the fence, and on the opposite side of fence is RV. It has 20 amp receptacle on it's 100 amp subpanel, but it is nice to have extra power outlets when you are outside.

Thanks all for the help.
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:57 PM   #40
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Out of curiosity, what did the dogbone adapter look like. ..."used a dogbone adapter - plugged in the surge protector - no errors. Plugged the RV"

I think you are asking me, the original post-er - as opposed to the other people who mentioned dogbones? And you may be making a joke - but that's ok - I will answer seriously


I don't have a picture of mine, specifically, but I think it looked just like the attached image...


Dan
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