Stopping The Inverter/Charger Death Loop

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Should be able to bench test it by cutting off the end of an extension cord and hook the wires to the input.

Then hook the 12V wires to a battery (the RV's or a car).

Plug in the monitor and see what the inverter does when you plug in and unplug the extension cord.

We may be writing the same thing but to test I need the inverter pulling on the batteries while the inverter receives 120 from itself. So it's 12v in, 120 inverter out to inverter 120 in. I need to intentionally create that loop with a load in between to see if the logic exists. Yes?

I'll try to come up with a crude drawing or maybe it's just time to install that copy of Visio I've been sitting on...

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by The_Breeze

We may be writing the same thing but to test I need the inverter pulling on the batteries while the inverter receives 120 from itself. So it's 12v in, 120 inverter out to inverter 120 in. I need to intentionally create that loop with a load in between to see if the logic exists. Yes?

I'll try to come up with a crude drawing or maybe it's just time to install that copy of Visio I've been sitting on...

Nope

Just a plug for 120V to input on the inverter.

12V lines go to a 12V battery.

If you want a load on the inverter use the other end of the extension cord connected to the inverter output and plug a lamp in or something.

The input & outputs of the inverter should never be connected to each other.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Nope

Just a plug for 120V to input on the inverter.

12V lines go to a 12V battery.

If you want a load on the inverter use the other end of the extension cord connected to the inverter output and plug a lamp in or something.

The input & outputs of the inverter should never be connected to each other.

Setting aside the bench test diagram for now, here's what I was trying to figure out. Should read "Unplug when using gen?". It's a question, not an answer.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by The_Breeze

Setting aside the bench test diagram for now, here's what I was trying to figure out. Should read "Unplug when using gen?". It's a question, not an answer.

Looks to me like you have the inverter in the wrong spot.

What you want for 120VAC wiring is:
XFR SW1 -> Inverter Input (inside inverter ->) Inverter Output -> A/C Panel input

Thats it; do not run the inverter output to the 30A plug.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Looks to me like you have the inverter in the wrong spot.

What you want for 120VAC wiring is:
XFR SW1 -> Inverter Input (inside inverter ->) Inverter Output -> A/C Panel input

Thats it; do not run the inverter output to the 30A plug.

Following your lead. You make a lot of sense. It takes some time to get my head properly wrapped around an issue. PM in another life. Risk mitigation and issue management - be smart. More so, be sure.

I have 4.6k wrapped up in phase 1.

If I read you right:

[TurnerFam]

if 'charging' is the ultimate issue, why not just turn it off? when you then 'plug in' to your 30amp outlet in the electric cord bay, you'll simply then be providing INVERTER power to your main panel, just like shore power, but with no 'charging' in the mix.

My Magnum ME2012 Inverter's remote panel has both a INVERTER button on/off, and a CHARGER button for on/off.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

if 'charging' is the ultimate issue, why not just turn it off? when you then 'plug in' to your 30amp outlet in the electric cord bay, you'll simply then be providing INVERTER power to your main panel, just like shore power, but with no 'charging' in the mix.

My Magnum ME2012 Inverter's remote panel has both a INVERTER button on/off, and a CHARGER button for on/off.

Unfortunately, that option doesn't seem to exist. Thanks though.

[galOnTheGo]

wow, there is a lot in here, I mostly skimmed over. my solution = 2 switches, both on one switch (Duplex Double Toggle Switch).
I put a 30 amp switch in where, on one side the inverter/charger is powered, and on the other, shore power, thus they can not both be on at the same time. a second switch is on / off for the existing charger. I ran the power line feeding the existing charger to the switch. when I use shore power, the inverter is off, and I switch the charger on. when I am on inverter, I switch charger off. both switches are side by side on the one switch and labeled so I don't forget. I am very happy with this and thought a clever solution if I do say so myself.

[OldWEB]

I know this is fun, but someone else in the forum has a question on nuclear physics that I can help with.
Good luck!

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by OldWEB

I know this is fun, but someone else in the forum has a question on nuclear physics that I can help with.
Good luck!

Sweet. Will it answer the big bang and evolution?

Joking

[OldWEB]

Originally Posted by The_Breeze

Sweet. Will it answer the big bang and evolution?

Joking

’Sheldon’ will answer those.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by OldWEB

’Sheldon’ will answer those.

Good to know. I'll keep my ear to the ground.

On a side note, nice to see you haven't lost your sense of...what's that word?

Crap, getting 'old' has its challenges...

[Chance]

Which inverter/charger did you get? Other than it being an Aims, I don’t recall seeing model or size mentioned.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Chance

Which inverter/charger did you get? Other than it being an Aims, I don’t recall seeing model or size mentioned.

I didn't think anyone was following it anymore and things went down the humor road . Not that I mind. We all need a smile now and again. I'll resume after the holiday mayhem.

2.5k PS. I was going to go with the 3k but when I went to order it, there was no longer any reference to it - at all.
https://theinverterstore.com/product...erter-charger/


More useless info:
According to Beau, another great source of info, it'll run the micro and that's what I'm after. Thanks to JamieGeek, TurnerFam and Cavie for their input and feedback as well.

If it winds up running the air on a soft start, all the better and an experiment for another time. Lots to do between now and then. With the way everything's mounted, I'll have easy access to upgrade (he hopes).

Found the perfect little spot right next to the entrance steps. The battery tray is right there and will get 4 BB 100ah batteries (have those and inverter laying in wait). If you know the 31L floor plan, the solar wires will come down the bulkhead behind the passenger's seat, under the steps and back up through the floor to the 'void' I found where everything will get tucked behind that door. Anything to do with the batteries will follow that same path so everything in that regard will be nicely bundled together in one hole.

If you see the that center rail in the pic, it will be removed and I'll leverage the existing slides, dropping them so they just clear the fresh water inlet. I'll mount plywood to those slides so I can slide it in and out for access. It will eventually become my entire solar control board (if that's what it's called?) There's enough room for the charge controller, busses, shunt, kill switches, etc. Open the door, disengage the latch, roll it out, and viola. Everything I need, except what's on the roof, should be right there. One of those heat ducts will be leveraged for ventilation. I'll get a 'Y' and run both heater outputs to one duct.

There's existing 120 right there as well. I'll chase those back to under the bed to wire up the AC-In and AC-out. The only challenge there is I don't know where the wires go once they land up against the fridge. They eventually reemerge under the shower pan, through a runway to the bed's foundation. I think they drop through the floor but not sure. I'll jump in front of the existing xfr switch for AC-In, letting the inverter handle that and feed the AC bus with the inverter's AC-Out.

TurnerFam thinks I can keep both but I may want the space for something else down the road. It should serve two purposes for now. If either one of them go bad for some reason, I have a backup. Not sure what or why just now. You don't know what you don't know.

Again, I'd like to thank the folks out here that helped. It is/was a wealth of information and I soaked it up like a sponge.

[MPM1979]

Hi Breeze, I have a 31L as well. Having read all of the options why are you not looking to mount the new inverter under the bed. All of the wiring you need to modify is already there. Shore power, generator, power convertor and battery cables? Should be easy to disconnect the original wires from the existing convertor and "insert" the new inverter. The battery cables run mostly exposed under the frame from the bed area to the batteries under the entrance steps. You may need to increase their depending on the inverters amp requirements. As for the future solar, use the spot above the water tank for all of the solar breakers, shunts and charge controller. This will give you a short wire run from the charge controller to the batteries. If you have a remote monitor for the charge controller and\or the inverter, they would be easy to mount to the side of the cabinets when you come in the door for accessibility

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by MPM1979

Hi Breeze, I have a 31L as well. Having read all of the options why are you not looking to mount the new inverter under the bed. All of the wiring you need to modify is already there. Shore power, generator, power convertor and battery cables? Should be easy to disconnect the original wires from the existing convertor and "insert" the new inverter. The battery cables run mostly exposed under the frame from the bed area to the batteries under the entrance steps. You may need to increase their depending on the inverters amp requirements. As for the future solar, use the spot above the water tank for all of the solar breakers, shunts and charge controller. This will give you a short wire run from the charge controller to the batteries. If you have a remote monitor for the charge controller and\or the inverter, they would be easy to mount to the side of the cabinets when you come in the door for accessibility

Hi MP,
The reason I'm shying away from under the bed is two-fold. First and most important is everything I've read cites to mount the inverter as close as possible to the batteries. If you consider this upgrade, please read as much as you can tolerably get your hands on. That's what lead me to using the space. A leaky water pump filter helped me discover the void. Having the 31L yourself, you know I can't get any get any closer than that.

I think Thor designed what you know/see out of sheer convenience and not much else. Also, it's simply a converter/charger so they didn't worry very much about amp drop along that run. Last and least important is noise.

The 120 runs will incur much less amp drop along that run. I read that somewhere and Cavie backed it up (he's a spark chaser by trade).

The solar components will get mounted where you suggest, on the same board for the inverter. I might have done a poor job pointing that out in response to Chance's question. The monitor is going exactly where you suggest, unless I find a run up top to the existing control panel. So far, nothing. The tank level lights are worthless, except for the grey, and the panel is plastic so take it from there

You have the 31L. If you consider doing this and go back a few posts, I believe I included plans for everything. The only thing that's changed is the height of the slides used to hold the 'control board'. A cabinet maker I met walked through what he believed I should do after seeing the space, plans and inverter manufacturer air circulation requirements. I had to admit it logical to do what he suggested - not to mention his AOE.

There's a lot that went into the wheretos and howfors which is why there are multiple posts in this thread. If I can help you with a similar upgrade, you know where to find me. Take care.

[MPM1979]

My view was looking to hopefully make the installation (wiring) easier. I agree keeping the batteries and inverter being close together for voltage drop is better, but can be minimized with proper cables. I suspect running the new 120 runs from the water tank back to the bed will be a PITA. While I have not worked behind the sink\shower myself it looks pretty messy. It also appears getting the wires from behind the shower to under the bed will be an issue due to the storage compartment, unless you are planning on going through there. Good luck. I'll keep following your progress as I'm interested in how you get the wires through there and how much space there is. A project I would like to do is getting a heat run behind the shower and all the way to the other side of the bed for those spring\fall outings here in Michigan! Happy New year

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by MPM1979

My view was looking to hopefully make the installation (wiring) easier. I agree keeping the batteries and inverter being close together for voltage drop is better, but can be minimized with proper cables. I suspect running the new 120 runs from the water tank back to the bed will be a PITA. While I have not worked behind the sink\shower myself it looks pretty messy. It also appears getting the wires from behind the shower to under the bed will be an issue due to the storage compartment, unless you are planning on going through there. Good luck. I'll keep following your progress as I'm interested in how you get the wires through there and how much space there is. A project I would like to do is getting a heat run behind the shower and all the way to the other side of the bed for those spring\fall outings here in Michigan! Happy New year

I agree, it could be a PITA but, no pain no gain. There is a channel that runs against the side wall between the shower wall and bed base. It's positioned at an angle to form a triangle between the floor and side wall. The base doesn't move. The mattress base slides along it on metal rails. That channel is not very big so I don't think a heat duct of any considerable size will fit.

As mentioned, the only place I get lost is behind the fridge/heater. I sure don't want to be tearing out the undercarriage for this. I'll drill a couple of holes in the floor and run the 120's through conduit if I have to and clamp that to the frame. I'm determined this beast won't beat me

And Happy New Year to you as well.

[RadioRanger]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

I believe he is referring to this:

If you leave the existing 12V charger in place then you have the 120V running off the inverter from the 12V batteries but the 12V charger running off the 120V is trying to charge the 12V batteries.

The simplest thing here is simply to turn off the breaker to the 12V charger when you're running off the inverter.

Except, of course, the inverter you're talking about has a built in charger and transfer switch. In that case you can completely remove the existing 12V charger and not worry about it at all.

In fact, since your inverter has a built in transfer switch you won't need the 30A plug at all: As soon as "shore power" goes away the transfer switch in the inverter will switch over (if you have the inverter turned on).

I have not read thru the whole thread yet, so maybe this has been addressed. You said he could get rid of the transfer switch. I would think you would want to keep that in front of the Inverter/charger. Then if you are running off shore power it will just flow thru. Plus if you remove that transfer switch and have a generator, you will have no way to switch that into service. So you would still need it for the generator. And you would want the generator output to go to the input of the Inverter/Charger. It will not care if the AC power is coming from shore power or the generator. AC is AC to the inverter/charger.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by RadioRanger

I have not read thru the whole thread yet, so maybe this has been addressed. You said he could get rid of the transfer switch. I would think you would want to keep that in front of the Inverter/charger. Then if you are running off shore power it will just flow thru. Plus if you remove that transfer switch and have a generator, you will have no way to switch that into service. So you would still need it for the generator. And you would want the generator output to go to the input of the Inverter/Charger. It will not care if the AC power is coming from shore power or the generator. AC is AC to the inverter/charger.

I did not say he could get rid of the transfer switch. I said he could get rid of his planned extra 30a plug.