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Old 11-14-2018, 12:21 AM   #41
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Winnebago bought an electric powered vehicle company that builds RV sized vehicles. They are for mobile medical/dental type uses now.


Frank
Winnebago seems more progressive to me in their willingness to try new technologies and ideas.

At the WPB RV Show last weekend, I got the chance to look closer at the Winnebago Travato with Volta lithium-battery system, high-capacity inverter, and high-capacity engine-driven second/dedicated alternator. It was a little too expensive for me (great idea but doesn’t add enough value for the cost).

Other than very high cost, I also didn’t like some of the compromises they had to make due to limited space for the new equipment. As I recall, the fresh water tank was relocated outside under floor (inverter is mounted where water tank is normally located), and the lithium battery bank is in a large box that hangs low to ground. These are details that shouldn’t be deal breakers, but still hard to accept when paying about $25,000 more. Unless heavily discounted, I can’t imagine the Volta system will be that popular an option. Who knows though, I’m often wrong about what buyers will purchase.
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:26 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by FrankMor View Post
Winnebago bought an electric powered vehicle company that builds RV sized vehicles. They are for mobile medical/dental type uses now.


Frank
Winnebago partnered with a company that makes power systems, they didn't purchase them.

More info can be found here:
https://autoweek.com/article/hybrid-...vehicle-coming
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:43 AM   #43
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Chance thank god no rv salesman is holding his breath on what you will buy.
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:41 AM   #44
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Chance thank god no rv salesman is holding his breath on what you will buy.
Great point. I’ll admit to being more difficult to please than most.

In fairness, I designed, built, and started up entire manufacturing plants, and can therefore identify many design and quality issues from a mile away. Because of that background, I probably do have much higher expectations.
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Old 11-14-2018, 11:43 AM   #45
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Tesla Makes an Announcement...

I understand. I have friends in the restaurant industry that won’t eat in a restaurant b/c They know the truth. So if Thor was to do things the “right way “how much more would it add to the price of an RV and would u pay it? You seem to be a good one to ask
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:18 PM   #46
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When we run out of fossil fuels I bet someone will come up with a viable solution. Until then, I'll leave the electric cars and hybrid motor homes on the show room floor.
Electric cars and hybrids are a viable solution. I've been driving a car with a plug for almost 6 years now. They are completely viable replacements for a petrol powered vehicle.

Sure the argument may be: "But I can't take a long road trip with them?" Um you're on an RV forum isn't that why you picked up the RV?

For us a car with a plug has been perfect in combination with RV trips: Since our Axis is only 30 amp I can use the 50 amp plug to charge up the car. Haven't had to get gas when we're at a destination going site seeing at all: Arrive at our campground, plug in the car (many times, since we tow the car, its already charged up). Go out sight seeing, come back, plug in the car. I love the convenience of it: the car is ready to go and we don't have to stop by a gas station.
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:22 PM   #47
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So Jaime,
If you had a hybrid RV with batteries already towing a E-vehicle, what do we think the difficulty there would be in using the batteries from the toad to power the RV in series? Hell, you have the power already back there. Is there anyway to make regenerative power from the slave toad?
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:32 PM   #48
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So Jaime,
If you had a hybrid RV with batteries already towing a E-vehicle, what do we think the difficulty there would be in using the batteries from the toad to power the RV in series? Hell, you have the power already back there. Is there anyway to make regenerative power from the slave toad?
That is quite the hypothetical there ! LOL

There would be some pretty beefy cables to handle that. Something like the DC charge cables or the Tesla Supercharger (given that during acceleration there could be some pretty high current draws from the car's batteries).

That is an interesting question: If you have a hybrid RV with something like 10kWh or even 20kWh of batteries and you're pulling something with 60kWh or more (maybe 100kWh) that could go a long way towards reducing fuel consumption in the RV.

The really interesting thing is that the RV could have some settings: Use all the power from the toad, only use up to XX% of the Toad's batteries, or charge up the toad as we'll be there in an hour.

Even better: If you're boondocking you can leave the toad plugged in and have 20kWh + 100kWh of electricity available. Camp for months without having to fire up the engine!
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:38 PM   #49
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Jaime,
Yep this would seem to be a great idea- in a RV/car the difference in gas is quite different- it wouldn't make sense for a number of reasons to use the gas in the car to increase range, but in an electrical sense they would be closer to even and in theory would greater gains/ fewer obstacles.
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:43 PM   #50
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Just remember Newton's Theory of Relativity. You can't make any power source without sacrifice another power source. If you could pull a 40' trailer full of 12' high solar panels with a KIA, you may have something. It may not run but 30MPH but someone would be happy with it. They could "I told you so" for the rest of their lives.
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:29 PM   #51
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Just remember Newton's Theory of Relativity. You can't make any power source without sacrifice another power source. If you could pull a 40' trailer full of 12' high solar panels with a KIA, you may have something. It may not run but 30MPH but someone would be happy with it. They could "I told you so" for the rest of their lives.
Not sure I follow this as what we're talking about is completely reasonable.

My Bolt carries with it 60kWh of battery storage and the Axis pulls it no differently than our Escape or the C-Max (its about the same weight as well).

A hybrid RV is going to have a smaller battery pack than that since hybrids only have enough storage for about 2x what is needed to accelerate (thus probably about 10kWh--the C-Max has about 7kWh and that all fits in the car so finding room in an RV for 10kWh is nothing). Also keep in mind that the fuel tank can be smaller due to the higher mpg the hybrid would get and a smaller engine.

Even better: If it is a series hybrid you can also throw out the transmission and drive shaft (just mount the electric motor(s) to the axle).

Also note: with all this battery power you'd also be throwing out the generator freeing up that space as well.

None of this is as unreasonable as a Kia towing 12' high solar panels.

The thing that makes all of this out of reach is the cost of all those batteries. That price is coming down, pretty quickly (Tesla Model 3 batteries will soon hit the magical $100/kWh range).
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:36 PM   #52
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I am on the Waiting List for a Bollinger.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/6-el...-electric-suv/
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:44 PM   #53
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It looks pretty...
How quickly will you chew through the batteries: when you need to use a winch to un-stick it?
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:00 PM   #54
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I understand. I have friends in the restaurant industry that won’t eat in a restaurant b/c They know the truth. So if Thor was to do things the “right way “how much more would it add to the price of an RV and would u pay it? You seem to be a good one to ask

I’m not the best guy to ask because while I may have high expectations for design and quality, I have very low expectations on what I need to enjoy traveling and or camping. Unlike many buyers, I honestly don’t want to take my house with me. I want a motorhome as small and simple as possible, and no simpler.



To your question of cost: Yes, in my opinion it would cost more to build things right, or at least better. We’ve had that conversation here before, and some QA types have disagreed with me, saying that in the long run it costs less. It’s sometimes difficult to quantify, so cost of quality remains subjective to some degree.

I don’t want to hijack thread, so will only say that yes, I’d pay more for higher quality, but would offset some of the cost premium by eliminating content I find unnecessary for “camping” and or traveling.

On topic, I will say that I expect an all-electric RV “house” will offer a great opportunity to simplify RV design, which should lead to higher quality for many units. The less often RVs are used, the greater the need to make them as simple as possible in my opinion.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:15 PM   #55
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2 weeks?
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:43 PM   #56
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So Jaime,
If you had a hybrid RV with batteries already towing a E-vehicle, what do we think the difficulty there would be in using the batteries from the toad to power the RV in series? Hell, you have the power already back there. Is there anyway to make regenerative power from the slave toad?
A more likely scenario IMO would be for those who boondock to charge their electric toad using the hybrid RV. For example, if towing an electric Smart car behind a Workhorse truck-based RV, you should be able to top off the Smart’s battery as needed with the 7.2 kW power source. You could also recharge electric motorcycles, scooters, or bikes from the RV.

Connecting RV and toad directly would be difficult because of voltages, controls, and safety. I suppose if same company like a Tesla or Ford built both the RV and toad, they could figure it out much easier.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:15 PM   #57
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Yeah, I always think electricity is easier than it is. That workhorse vehicle obviously doesn't have enough capability for RV usage. How much juice do you need to run an A/C unit for a day-to me that would be the # you need in battery power to make it useful.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:39 PM   #58
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A more likely scenario IMO would be for those who boondock to charge their electric toad using the hybrid RV. For example, if towing an electric Smart car behind a Workhorse truck-based RV, you should be able to top off the Smart’s battery as needed with the 7.2 kW power source. You could also recharge electric motorcycles, scooters, or bikes from the RV.

Connecting RV and toad directly would be difficult because of voltages, controls, and safety. I suppose if same company like a Tesla or Ford built both the RV and toad, they could figure it out much easier.
I think it works either way. There have been discussions of making EV's be the "battery backup" for homes when they are plugged in and not charging.

If said hybrid+EV combo was making a days long drive and the hybrid could easily charge up the EV in, say, 50-100 miles. Then the hybrid could easily treat the EV's battery as part of its hybrid battery all the way until about 50-100 miles from the destination. Then the hybrid starts charging up the battery in the EV (switch from "big hybrid" mode to "charge toad" mode). Then you get the benefits of both.

To your point: Now the hybrid+EV combo has been boondocking for a while but its time to go to the store: Crank up the hybrids engine for a bit to charge up the EV enough to get to the store and back (a bonus if the store has a plug).

This sort of system could work with any combination of OEM's (Thor coaches with Tesla cars, or Chevy's, etc.). All that is needed is an interconnect standard between the two vehicles (something that SAE kind of excels at: writing standards LOL).
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:24 PM   #59
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Idea sounds good on the surface, but IMO numbers don’t support it, so I seriously doubt it will happen that way.

The thing about hybrids is that there is very little middle ground regarding battery capacity. A hybrid that relies mostly on gas/ICE needs very little battery capacity to achieve most of the MPG benefit. Batteries in cars like Prius are tiny and would be next to useless for RV application. Many store under 1 kWh of energy, which is less than RV lead batteries.

If we step up to plug-in hybrids, the goal is to operate like an electric vehicle for a significant distance — let’s say 40 or 50 miles. Beyond that an engine takes over to supply energy, but fuel economy while cruising on highway is no better than a normal hybrid, so all that battery weight and cost doesn’t help much on 500~600 mile days after you exceed the first 40~50 miles.

I expect the most likely combination I will see in mass production will be a plug-in hybrid van converted to Class B camper. As a second vehicle, daily city driving will help justify battery costs, and on weekends and vacations, those same batteries will power the house. After that I expect the same technology will filter down to Class Cs and As at a slow rate — it’s harder to justify costs due to low driven miles per year. We are all guessing though.
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:35 PM   #60
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Yeah, I always think electricity is easier than it is. That workhorse vehicle obviously doesn't have enough capability for RV usage. How much juice do you need to run an A/C unit for a day-to me that would be the # you need in battery power to make it useful.
If that was the goal, it would first pay to improve insulation, install better windows, etc. If built right and energy efficient, a smaller RV could be cooled by a single high-efficiency air conditioner. Since it would cycle on and off a lot at night, I’d roughly estimate it could run 24 hours on about 20~25 kWh, maybe less depending on weather. That’s well within the battery capacity of a plug-in hybrid vehicle the size needed for a camper conversion.
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