Thor collaborates on lithium battery system.

[powerboatr]

Originally Posted by Chance

Yeah. Pictures of that motorhome show it has 3 air conditioners. Combined they could easily require 3,600 Watts (likely more), so if air conditioning during day in hot weather, they could drain batteries in about 10 hours. And if it wasn’t for generator, you’d have to run the 450 HP diesel for about 4 hours if alternator can charge at 9,000 Watts (assuming no other loads). If still running A/Cs, it would take over 5 or 6 hours of fast idling.

Its easy to see why Thor added a generator to the Tuscany with lithium package (compared to prototype). I expect those buying that kind of luxurious coach want few compromises.

its confusing, but this coach does not have a generator. only source to recharge the volta pack is the engine driven dedicated alternator, some solar and plug into the pedestal.
it will run everything off the inverters for a bit

[Chance]

Originally Posted by powerboatr

its confusing, but this coach does not have a generator. only source to recharge the volta pack is the engine driven dedicated alternator, some solar and plug into the pedestal.
it will run everything off the inverters for a bit

The pictures for that particular coach with lithium package shows an Onan diesel generator sticking out the front. Unless they got pictures mixed up from different motorhomes, it has both lithium battery package and generator. Depending on how it’s wired, it could be possible to charge from alternator while driving, from diesel generator by using inverter/chargers, or by solar (which is almost a trickle charger at that level of power). It should be similar to most motorhomes, just bigger and more powerful electrical components.

https://www.mhsrv.com/2020-thor-moto...er-tx-i2530960

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Just need to scale this guy up.

The new ProAir discussed in other threads may be a step in that direction. The 12-Volt unit is “rated” 20,000 BTU/hr and pulls about 96 Amps at 95 F ambient. That’s roughly 1150 Watts with EER of ~ 17. That’s considerably more efficient than standard RV roof-top air conditioners.

It’s an option on (different brand) Class B with 12V lithium package, so we’ll have to see how well it performs over time. Still, if you had one in an Axis an it pulled 96 Amps, you’d need a lot of batteries to power it even for just a few hours.

[Bob Denman]

Either way: this is an important step in the development of these systems!

After all: Did Orville and Wilbur hop into one of these 110 years ago?
Everybody has to start somewhere...

http://www.thorforums.com/forums/att...1&d=1572126063

[Bob Denman]

Something else to consider...
Thor might have left the generator is place in order to make potential customers feel better...
You can have the greatest, most advanced product available...

But if the paying public can't wrap their heads around it: you're out of business!

[TurnerFam]

no, the Lithium 'power pack' that replaces the need for a generator IS where the generator would normally be, so there can't be BOTH in the same place.

It's either a Generator powered coach, or it's a Lithium Battery powered coach....
one or the other - there is no other place for this size of a Battery Bank to be installed.
The original video with Thor's own Rep shows it in place of the Generator.

[Bob Denman]

Perhaps they sacrificed some outside storage space?

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Something else to consider...
Thor might have left the generator is place in order to make potential customers feel better...
You can have the greatest, most advanced product available...

But if the paying public can't wrap their heads around it: you're out of business!

My guess is that the “paying public” that can afford that kind of rig “can wrap their heads around it” much better than you’re giving them credit. Or perhaps you don’t understand the practical limitations as well as you think.

It’s not about feeling better, it’s about meeting a necessary requirement that that unit without a generator can’t meet in a viable manner.

In smaller motorhomes and van campers one “might” be able to use a portable generator to get by on rare occasions the Volta system isn’t enough, but on a luxury coach you’d need more than portable generators.

My opinion is based on thinking that no owner is going to ever want to idle that 450 HP diesel for hours a day under any circumstances. The proper energy balance just doesn’t seem to be there to go without a generator backup for that particular rig.

[Bob Denman]

The folks who might be in the best position to pay for this rig are also (generally speaking...) going to be older, and perhaps more "set in their ways".
How many times have you heard your folks say something like "Because it's ALWAYS been done this say: that's why!"
(I wish I had a penny for every time that I heard it... )
Incremental steps in rapidly changing technologies might be easier to folks like this to swallow.
This is not really about the product now: it's about getting it accepted by the paying public.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

no, the Lithium 'power pack' that replaces the need for a generator IS where the generator would normally be, so there can't be BOTH in the same place.

It's either a Generator powered coach, or it's a Lithium Battery powered coach....
one or the other - there is no other place for this size of a Battery Bank to be installed.
The original video with Thor's own Rep shows it in place of the Generator.

I must have missed this post while replying to bob.

The beauty of batteries is that they can be installed just about anywhere. On the show prototype they used the generator location since it was left void, but if they want both lithium batteries and a generator, they can use basement storage space as needed. It’s really not that much battery volume and weight compared to coach size.

Pictures show both — three Volta inverters in basement and a diesel generator in normal location. I did not see battery bank, but that could be anywhere. Granted, MHSRV may have made a mistake with pictures, but I have no reason to question a MH having both.

[Bob Denman]

I agree...

[Chance]

Haven’t seen much about the Thor lithium system yet, or its cost, but a MotorHome Magazine article on Embassy Class B shows a breakdown of costs which is interesting. It puts total costs in perspective.

$7,895 — Lithionics 600-Ah battery and 3kW Xantrex inverter

$3,695 — 280-Amp second alternator

$4,495 — auto engine start


https://www.motorhome.com/top-storie...v-prl-class-b/


At least it’s lower than the Volta system Winnebago uses on Travato, and shows costs can get much lower still. I like the a la carte pricing so buyers can get only what they need.


This Class B also comes with large (for a van) 6.8 cubic-foot 12 Volt refrigerator, as well as a 20,000 BTU/hr 12 Volt air conditioner. I personally don’t see the tent option very practical.



With both Ford and GM now offering dual alternators from factory at a small fraction of the cost, maybe FCA/RAM will see the demand and add option (or its equivalent) to ProMaster van. Auto engine start could also be done by OEMs at much lower cost.

[Bob Denman]

You've mentioned dual alternators a couple of times now...
Do you see them as a lower alternative to going "full lithium"; or are they just part of the package?
(I'm starting yo notice dual alternator kits for my Sprinter, and am getting curious!)

[Chance]

Bob, it’s a necessary part of the package for “most” users.

The problem with high-capacity battery systems is that they take a lot of energy to recharge, and to do it in a reasonable amount of time, a second alternator is probably best solution for now.

Solar is way too slow for a van, and a single OEM alternator would take most of the day driving to recharge 600 Ah. For a few like me that may be OK though because we drive/tour a lot.

Also, for owners who stay in campgrounds, they can recharge at night from shore power. That’s why I mentioned liking a la carte pricing.

[Bob Denman]

Thanks!
So now my question morphs into: "Would dual alternators provide faster charging capabilities for conventional systems?"

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Thanks!
So now my question morphs into: "Would dual alternators provide faster charging capabilities for conventional systems?"

Depends.

Depends on type of battery, battery bank capacity, and (excess) alternator capacity.

For typical RV with a couple of flooded or AGM batteries, a single large OEM alternator should be able to supply as much current as the batteries can ideally take. Or close enough that it’s not worth the added expense.

However, if we start looking at newer motorhome designs like the Coachmen Cross Trek without an Onan generator, which has 330 to 400 Amp-hours of AGM battery capacity, then a single OEM alternator will not likely be able to charge as fast as possible. In talking with Coachmen, they told me they were ordering new 2021 Ford Cutaway chassis with dual alternators from Ford. And based on dirt cheap cost, every RV manufacturer should do the same in my opinion.

Once we start looking at 600 Amp-hours of lithium (using a single Lithionics battery as an example), then the higher alternator capacity the faster it can recharge. Maximum continuous charge current is 400 Amps which a single OEM alternator can’t do. Even 300 Amps (for 0.5C) is too much for single OEM alternator.

In fairness, second stand-alone add-on alternators may be heavier duty, and often have external regulators which can charge lithium batteries — hence the high cost.

Still, I’d probably pass on a $3,695 second alternator and plan to charge at campgrounds at least every other night. If alternator was OEM and under $500, then I’d want it even if I thought I could get by without.

[Bob Denman]

So my pair of Size 31 AGM's probably wouldn't notice the difference...

[Chance]

Correct. And even if it saved a few minutes to charge batteries, it’d be difficult for most of us to justify the high cost of a second “aftermarket” alternator for a Mercedes Sprinter. I’ve only seen a second alternator added when the RV manufacturer wanted to eliminate the Onan generator, where they installed a large-capacity lithium battery bank.


A much stronger case can be made when additional alternator capacity can be provided by the chassis OEM at a small fraction of the cost. Chevy upgraded their V8 up to 6.6-liter for truck use, and offers dual alternator option for $380 (at least in pickups), which is affordable and a great value in my opinion. I expect Chevy may offer the 2021 Express Cutaway with this option to match Ford E-Series.

Both Chevy and Ford have a combined rating of just under 400 Amps, which, if nothing else, is enough to power an RV rooftop air conditioner while driving a motorhome without having to run the generator.

[Bob Denman]

Those parts for a Sprinter are over $600... plus installation!
Thanks for clearing this up for me!

[Chance]

Way over $600 for complete Sprinter installation.

Sportsmobile estimates total cost on their units around $5,000

https://sportsmobile.com/going-all-electric/




With new Ford and Chevy pricing, I’m fairly certain there’s going to be far more generator-less motorhome options similar to Coachmen Cross Trek in next couple of years. Some campers will still need built-in Onan generators, but many won’t.

The main reason to still have a generator at all is strictly to power an air conditioner or two for long periods without shore power.