V10 Engine Tuning- Regular vs. Premium Fuel and More...

[gmtech16450yz]

Originally Posted by The Gritz Carlton

To much sales pitching going on here...I have a diesel that performs like it was designed. I'm out of here. Opinions are flying around like sand in a hurricane.

Lol. Later.

Why are you even in here if you have a diesel and are thrilled with it?

And "sales pitch" would imply I'm trying to sell something, which I'm not.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz

I can give your engine more hp and torque. On a climb up a grade that increase will result in your RV going 45mph stock vs., say, 60mph tuned. Will your gas use in that situation be lower? Probably not, and could actually be higher. Now IF you still went 45 up that same grade while tuned, you MIGHT get better mileage. But who's gonna do that? Nobody. lol.
...

I'm going to continue hacking this MSI file. If I get things the way I want them, would you send me a tune profile file to get me started?

I'm dying to learn this but won't sacrifice my computer to do it.

I'll let you know if I get it installed (the way I want it).

[DbleDutch]

Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz

And "sales pitch" would imply I'm trying to sell something, which I'm not.

Thanks GMTech,
I have been one enjoying the discussion. I have been interested in a tune to correct the towhaul shift pattern.
We frequently take our RV from 800ft to 8000ft and back down. The stock V10 tune does a horrible job of releasing the down shift. Our GM pickup with our 5th would hold its speed and easily step up a gear with a slight touch of gas. I am looking to gain this back with the V10 tuned.
Enjoy your travels!

[gmtech16450yz]

Originally Posted by DbleDutch

Thanks GMTech,
I have been one enjoying the discussion. I have been interested in a tune to correct the towhaul shift pattern.
We frequently take our RV from 800ft to 8000ft and back down. The stock V10 tune does a horrible job of releasing the down shift. Our GM pickup with our 5th would hold its speed and easily step up a gear with a slight touch of gas. I am looking to gain this back with the V10 tuned.
Enjoy your travels!

VERY good point on the trans. Yeah I'm happy with the V10, and the Ford 6 speed works well, but it sure would be nice to have that manual gear control that the Allison and GM transmissions have. Not being able to manually select 5th or 3rd gear is a little annoying at times.

The good point is what's capable with tuning as far as "fixing" problems like these. I didn't like the way that the Ford 6 speed would drop from 6th to 4th if it couldn't pull 6th on a grade. I did a couple changes in the shift properties themselves, but I also didn't want to create any side effects.

So what I did was to modify the 5th and 6th gear shift properties in Tow/Haul mode only, so that when it's in T/H, it won't actually go into 6th at all. So now I have a "pseudo" manual 5th gear! If I'm climbing a grade that won't quite pull 6th gear, all I have to do is push the T/H switch and it will drop to 5th and stay there without hunting back and forth or jumping from 6th to 4th. It works for me, obviously it wouldn't work for everyone because if you forget to turn T/H off, you'll never get into 6th gear. Just one of the many things you can customize to your own liking when you tune an engine and trans. And there isn't just one way to "fix" things like this either.

The other part of course for your climbing up and down from 800 to 8000 feet is engine power. The tune will give you a significant increase in torque that will make pulling grades WAY better. Pulling grades is where Ford really neutered these engines and fixing it with a tune will absolutely be noticeable.


The thought I had earlier was about 5 Star tuning. It appears that a lot of you guys have been on the fence about this tuning stuff, and buying a 5 Star tune specifically. Somebody mentioned price, that's what got me thinking...

I called 5 Star today and talked to Chris. It's the first time I've ever talked to anyone there, and I have NO affiliation or ties to them whatsoever. I told Chris the reason I called wasn't for myself, but for you forum members. I told him about this thread and he pulled it up and said he'd read it. I asked if there was anything he could do as far as a "group buy" or some kind of discount to help you guys out. I told him you all seem like good guys and would probably appreciate any help he could give. He totally understood and said he'd work on it. I won't get and don't want anything for possibly saving you guys some money and possibly giving 5 Star some business in the process, I simply did it for the Karma points. lol. I had a very nice talk with Chris and was impressed by his knowledge and interest in helping out forum members. We'll see!

[The_Breeze]

So after some serious testing, I think I might have found a problem with the OOB install. This is an unmodified validation of the MSI file. Hindsight is always 20/20. I should have doe this first. I want the granularity of HP Tuners over 5 Star - if I can get it.

ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Vehicles installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Maths installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Logs installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Layouts installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Graphs installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Gauges installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Charts installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner.Channel_Con figs installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.VCM_Scanner installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.Logs_and_Tunes.Samples installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners.Logs_and_Tunes installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.
ICE38 ERROR Component C.PersonalFolder.HP_Tuners installs to user profile. It must use a registry key under HKCU as its KeyPath, not a file.

[JamieGeek]

Hmm I don't remember who I talked to at 5-Star when I picked up the tunes for my F350..

I do have a question, however. This has been mentioned on the forums quite a bit and I thought this might be the place to ask:

For those of us (most of us) with the knife disconnects on our coaches: How much re-learning does the engine computer have to do after its been sitting for a week/month/months with no power to everything? Does it just take a few hundred RPM? Is there any danger of damage (I'm assuming no here, but is there a possibility)?

[Long & Winding road]

Great question Jamiegeek...

GMTECH - I MIGHT be intrested in a "group purchase" on the 5 star tune. But its not on the top of "need/want" list right now. I guess it all comes down to the price. 5% off retail dont excite me but 15% + would.

[Thehobe1]

OK, I get your point about maximizing torque and power but for a driver on California's mostly flat (Hwy 5) roads that is willing to shift down when necessary, is there any improvement in gas economy? I have noticed huge improvements for the Ford V10 performance in my Vegas when compared to the Ford V10 in my previous 1999 engine. It has more power and the Vegas is a lighter vehicle. I got around 8 mpg doing 80 mph on a cross country trip but get around 10 mpg in "normal" easy driving: 65 mph.

[gmtech16450yz]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Hmm I don't remember who I talked to at 5-Star when I picked up the tunes for my F350..

I do have a question, however. This has been mentioned on the forums quite a bit and I thought this might be the place to ask:

For those of us (most of us) with the knife disconnects on our coaches: How much re-learning does the engine computer have to do after its been sitting for a week/month/months with no power to everything? Does it just take a few hundred RPM? Is there any danger of damage (I'm assuming no here, but is there a possibility)?

Not only is this a good question, it's going to bring info that nobody even asked for but will learn from and enjoy!

So the answer on the battery disconnect... You can't damage anything in the ECM by taking power away for minutes, months or years. If you have something like an aftermarket tune, it can't "forget" those calibration changes. (That's a concern that's actually been brought up many times online. "Do I need to re-load my aftermarket tune because I disconnected my battery". NO.)

The ECM will have to re-run emission monitors, do some amount of idle learning and also some amount of fuel mixture learning. Some of it takes entire drive cycles, some of it takes a matter of seconds. None of it should be a big deal or super obvious to the driver. Maybe a little rough idle, maybe a tiny little hesitation, but nothing big or damaging.

Here's the fun little piece of trivia though that nobody asked for... Have any of you noticed when you park your late model Ford for awhile, or have the battery disconnected, that when you turn the ignition on the check engine light flashes? Normally a flashing check engine light is a really bad thing, it usually means there's a misfire or some condition that will damage the cat converter. This flashing check engine light with key on, ENGINE OFF, is telling you one or more of the emission monitors have not run. This is perfectly OK.

[gmtech16450yz]

Originally Posted by Thehobe1

OK, I get your point about maximizing torque and power but for a driver on California's mostly flat (Hwy 5) roads that is willing to shift down when necessary, is there any improvement in gas economy? I have noticed huge improvements for the Ford V10 performance in my Vegas when compared to the Ford V10 in my previous 1999 engine. It has more power and the Vegas is a lighter vehicle. I got around 8 mpg doing 80 mph on a cross country trip but get around 10 mpg in "normal" easy driving: 65 mph.

Short answer... (lol. as if I could actually give a short answer to anything.)
At those speeds and conditions you "probably" will see a "little" better mileage.

I know I put up REALLY LONG posts that are a lot to read, so you probably missed what I said about mileage. Here's the post...

Thor Forums - View Single Post - V10 Engine Tuning- Regular vs. Premium Fuel and More...

If that doesn't help, let me know. And the difference between power between your '99 and your new V10 being "huge"? The power difference between stock and tuned in that new V10 might not feel as much, but it will absolutely be noticeable. My 27.7 Vegas almost feels "fast" after my tuning and wheel/tire swap. I know that sounds crazy but I've driven a lot of vehicles in my life and it's far from a lumbering beast that most would expect a ~14k lbs 28 foot long box to be.

[gmtech16450yz]

I called 5 Star today and talked to Chris. It's the first time I've ever talked to anyone there, and I have NO affiliation or ties to them whatsoever. I told Chris the reason I called wasn't for myself, but for you forum members. I told him about this thread and he pulled it up and said he'd read it. I asked if there was anything he could do as far as a "group buy" or some kind of discount to help you guys out. I told him you all seem like good guys and would probably appreciate any help he could give. He totally understood and said he'd work on it. I won't get and don't want anything for possibly saving you guys some money and possibly giving 5 Star some business in the process, I simply did it for the Karma points. lol. I had a very nice talk with Chris and was impressed by his knowledge and interest in helping out forum members. We'll see!

That was from my previous post on here. It's been a week. Chris said he'd either post in this thread, make a new thread or send me an email. He said he would definitely set up some sort of "group buy", "discount code" or link for a discount page on their website for you guys.

I haven't heard a word. No email, no post, nothing. Not sure what to think of that.



.

[10scDust]

Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz

That was from my previous post on here. It's been a week. Chris said he'd either post in this thread, make a new thread or send me an email. He said he would definitely set up some sort of "group buy", "discount code" or link for a discount page on their website for you guys.

I haven't heard a word. No email, no post, nothing. Not sure what to think of that.



.

Well, I hope he does so soon, I am about to leap and buy this tune.
The cost is partly why I hadn't yet, so gmtech, if & when you do know something, please let us know on this thread, along with if you start another.

I watched your engine swap out, very nice!

[Beau388]

I cannot hype 5 Star too much. I ordered the tune about March of 2016 just after I put 2,000 miles on my Hurricane. I have an early 6-sp with a 4.30:1 rear gear and 33 inch diameter tires in a 18,000 lb chassis. This gives 1,780 rpm @ 60 mph. The trans would shift into 6th at 51 mph and down shift when the speed dropped 2 mph to 5th and if it dropped it 1 more mph would downshift again to 4th, so I would be at 3,000 rpm crossing an overpass 57 mph. The trans refused to down shift when braking. The first 5 Star tune was good and helped but the shift pattern was not aggressive enough. I e-mailed 5 Star with my detailed complaints. A week later, they e-mailed me a new tune. The revised tune was way too aggressive holding the lower gears to long and not shifting into 6th in tow/ haul until 79 mph. I e-mailed 5-star again and in about a week I received an second revised tune. It was a perfect compromise and suits my coach and my driving style. With the present tune, any time I press the two haul button, the trans drops immediately to 5th if I am below 65 mph regardless of the throttle position. This tune really helps with head winds and makes the down shift really aggressive. I just cannot complement on 5 Star enough for their excellent customer support. I am a retired mechanical engineer (NCSU) and really picky about how all my vehicles drive. If 5 Star can satisfy me, they can probably satisfy you.

[Long & Winding road]

Thats good to know Beau, What about the HP and TQ? Does it feel more powerful overall or just sometimes?

Any MPG improvments (or decrease) on long trips (interstate driving)?

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by Long & Winding road

Thats good to know Beau, What about the HP and TQ? Does it feel more powerful overall or just sometimes?
Any MPG improvements (or decrease) on long trips (interstate driving)?

As you are probably aware, any increase in power in motor homes is subjective. With normally aspirated engines, more RPMs equals more power. To think you will perceive any power increase with 415 cuin. pushing 18,000 lbs, would be wishful thinking. At 56 lbs per hp, this is the same as driving a 3200 lb car with 57 hp; however, the throttle response with the tune is much crisper making it feel like there is more power. The 0 to 60 mph time is still in the 24 second range. The fuel mileage or lack of is a result of driving habits, vehicles weight and total drag (aero + tire friction). Engine efficiency can be changed only a little unless the actual compression ratio changes. Even though the V-10 original design dates from the late 1980s and it was first produced in 1998, the combustion chamber has been changed to increase efficiency five different times. An engines max torque per cuin is an indicate of engine efficiency. For instance, the current V-10 has 1.01 ftlbs of torque per cuin, where as a new Vette engine has 1.12 ft lbs of torque per cuin. So, the answer to better engine efficiency is more compression and better fuel atomization (direct injection in the 3,000 psi range). Hopefully the new Ford 447 cuin V-8 engine will have 10 to 12% increase in efficiency and coupled with a new 8-sp trans will get about 0.8 more miles per gallon. For now. I am perfectly happy getting 7.92 mph @ 60 mph over the last 25,000 miles on 85-89 octane gasoline in my 3 year old coach.

[Long & Winding road]

Ok, thanks.

I like to pull the trigger but I dont like the 5 star retail price. Hopefully they will have a TF discount soon.

I dont tow right now but when I do I think this will be a must have item for me.

Plus im not crazy on the way the tranny shifts .... so this should take care of that as well.

I always find something that I "Need" for my RV.... Does it ever stop? LOL.

[halfprice]

There has been a long running thread on irv2.com with a group buy discount. I dont know what it is but might be worth the look for those interested. Im happy how mine drives stock. So not interested in 5 star myself

Jerry

[gmtech16450yz]

What people need to realize when they're wondering why Ford wouldn't deliver these engines with engine calibrations for maximum efficiency and power in the first place is one single word... Emissions.

Maximum engine efficiency and power DOES NOT usually result in the best/lowest emissions. It also doesn't go hand in hand with the best gas mileage.

In other words, Ford absolutely knows how to tune for maximum efficiency and power and of course could deliver any vehicle with those calibrations. It wouldn't pass emissions laws though. What does an engine calibrator or "tuner" do to make an engine more efficient and make more power? In the most basic and simplest terms, he would advance ignition timing to the maximum that either the engine or fuel could use. And for max power he would add fuel, for max efficiency he would run leaner than stoich at cruise speeds/loads. Pretty much all exhaust byproducts go high at a max power mixture. NOx goes through the roof with advanced ignition timing or super lean mixtures. HC goes high with overly lean or rich mixtures.

So yes, Ford knows how to make the V10 run WAAAAAYYYYY better and actually get BETTER gas mileage. They can't though, especially in California. So they deliver an engine that has clean tailpipe emissions, but is pretty far from optimum efficiency and power. And I'm not even talking about "unsafe" or "running an engine at the ragged edge" aftermarket tunes, which of course exist. An efficiently, properly tuned engine making max power in no way has to be less dependable or have a shorter lifespan than a factory tuned one. The contrary is more common, many things that OEM calibrators have to do for emissions HURTS dependability and engine lifespan.

On the fuel mileage subject, these Ford ECM's in the V10's are pretty primitive and aftermarket tuners don't have a whole lot to work with in them. But one thing they do have is the ability to change commanded lambda in closed loop. In layman's terms, it means you can decide exactly what you want the fuel mixtures to be, in open AND in closed loop. That's a big deal. It means you can run in what's called "lean cruise", something that's legal in other countries but is illegal in the US in engine calibrations. The GTO is a good example, in Australia you can drive down the freeway in your LS1 Holden Monaro in lean cruise mode, which means the fuel mixtures are leaner than stoich, which is 14.7 for straight gas, 14.1 for E10 fuel. US GTO's, with the same engines with the same ECM cannot be calibrated to enable the lean cruise. Why? EMISSIONS. So does GM know how to calibrate an LS1 to get better freeway mileage? Of course, but the laws won't let them.

On the Ford V10 specifically, I know what I'M doing in my ECM, but I actually haven't seen a 5 Star tune to see if they're enabling or tuning for lean cruise. IF they were, I guaranty you an aftermarket tune would net better gas mileage at freeway cruise than stock.

Make sense or too much gobbly-gook? lol.

[10scDust]

I understand what you are saying, gmtech, but I have a question.
How can you determine if your V10 is two, or three valve engine?
Especially if it is a cusp year.
Will the VIN provide enough info?

[axis earl]

I am pretty sure that if you have the F53 chassis, you have the 3 valve engine. The E350 and E450 have the two valve. 320 hp vs 305 hp.