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Old 03-10-2018, 10:47 PM   #141
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Glad it worked for you. Thinking about it, the BIRD probably does not know the difference if the red and orange wires are switched. The only thing I would check is to see if the emergency start switch works with the wires switched. I think it probably should, but I would check to make sure.
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Old 03-29-2018, 03:50 PM   #142
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Interesting that my Class C Four Winds 31W can only charge the chassis battery from the alternator while class A's "has a bi-directional relay that allows charging to go both ways the C does not have this".

This response was direct from Ron B at Thor.

Weird.
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:24 PM   #143
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I apologize for resurrecting this dead thread, but I thought this was a good place for this question.

If the alternator is charging the motor and house batteries, and lets say the house batteries are deeply discharged and the motor battery is not, what happens? Does the Motor battery get over charged so the house batteries can get charged, or does it just charge the house batteries at the lower rate that the motor requires? Or something else?

How is this affected by battery makeup (AGM house batteries, standard flooded motor battery) or bank size (6 12v deep cycle batteries on the house side).

Same question if going the other way (from the converter/charger).
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:19 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by apr67 View Post
I apologize for resurrecting this dead thread, but I thought this was a good place for this question.

If the alternator is charging the motor and house batteries, and lets say the house batteries are deeply discharged and the motor battery is not, what happens? Does the Motor battery get over charged so the house batteries can get charged, or does it just charge the house batteries at the lower rate that the motor requires? Or something else?

How is this affected by battery makeup (AGM house batteries, standard flooded motor battery) or bank size (6 12v deep cycle batteries on the house side).

Same question if going the other way (from the converter/charger).
You have a plant 750 coach and all their coaches are wired the same way for that model year. From 2015 through 2017 all the coach have a BIRD (bi-directional relay) with a Trombetta control module located near the house batteries. This relay allows the chassis and house batteries to be connected. The relay can be manually activated by the emergency start switch on the dash. If one battery bank (house or chassis) voltage is above 13.4 volts to 2.5 minutes, then the Trombetta signals the BIRD to close. The BIRD remains closed until both the battery banks goes below 13.1 volts. So to answer your question directly if the alternator is putting out at least 13.4 volts for 2.5 minutes the BIRD is closed by the Trombetta charging the house battery. With shore or generator power the charger will supply at least 13.4 volts to the house batteries (assuming the store/use switch is in the USE position) and after 2.5 minutes the Trombetta will signal the BIRD to close and charge the chassis battery.
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:34 PM   #145
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Thanks.

Let me ask another question, anyone know what this fuse is for? Red one between the Bird and the Trombetta.

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Old 03-14-2019, 07:49 PM   #146
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[QUOTE=apr67;172507]Thanks.

Let me ask another question, anyone know what this fuse is for? Red one between the Bird and the Trombetta.QUOTE]


The good electrical practice is us use a fuse or circuit breaker between any high amperage device and a low amperage device on the same circuit. The relay is a 100 amp continuous duty where the Trombetta is probably rated a 2 amps max. Without a fuse it would be an electrical fire waiting to happen.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:11 PM   #147
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As far as I can tell that red little fuse doesn't connect to the Trombetta at all. I will recheck the wires, but it looks to come out of and go back into the same wiring harness.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:02 AM   #148
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Nevermind. It does, it was just dark and hard to see.

So the Trombetta connects when the bird tells it to (based on voltage) but can also contact based on the emergency start button, or is that another mechanism?
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:20 PM   #149
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With reference to the BIRD explanation:

Thank Colonel.
This was very informative.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:35 AM   #150
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I want in on this resurrection! LOL

Does anyone know where to look for this BIRD and Trombetta on a 2016 Thor class C Outlaw?
Or, if it even has this set up?

Been reading through all the info I can on the charging system (3 days of troubleshooting), and I still do not know enough.


What I have: Chassis battery charges fine from engine's alternator, verified voltage differences at the battery, and voltage is at a level that a BIRD would not allow charge voltage in on shore power or generator.

What I don't have: any type of incoming charge voltage to the coach batteries under the step, from alternator w/engine running, plugged in to shore power, or with generator running.

I am thinking maybe the fuse on the Trombetta/BIRD, if I could find it.
I did not pull the chassis battery out to get a better look, I don't think it is there anyway.
Nothing near generator area.
Nothing around the coach batteries and circuit breakers not tripped, 12 vdc both sides all three.

Use switch in Use position, or store, same results, no charge voltage.

Could it be the converter?
Is that what is near the fuse/breaker panels, silver with cooling fins?
There is a Xantrex Pro 1000 inside the shore power cord compartment, is that the converter.

Does the RV have a separate battery charger?

Thanks for any insights.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:53 AM   #151
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[QUOTE=10scDust;173636] Does anyone know where to look for this BIRD and Trombetta on a 2016 Thor class C Outlaw?
Or, if it even has this set up?...
[QUOTE]

I'm equally interested in an answer to this, if there is one. Dual thread: http://www.thorforums.com/forums/f10...ery-16549.html
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:03 PM   #152
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this is a very interesting thread....seems to be a multitude of owners with the same problem
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:53 PM   #153
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Well, today I removed the converter, I think it is supposed to supply 12v when the 120vac is plugged into shore power.
There is 120vac coming from a circuit breaker to the converter, but absolutely no 12vdc coming out of it, and 12vdc only present when use switch is set to "use" measuring coach battery voltage reading, nothing more.
I am also guessing the converter is what supplies charge voltage to the coach batteries.

I still cannot find a BIRD,BIM, or BCC.
So I still am at a loss where to look for engine alternator charging to the coach batteries when needed for leveling.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:16 PM   #154
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[QUOTE=10scDust;173735
I still cannot find a BIRD,BIM, or BCC.
So I still am at a loss where to look for engine alternator charging to the coach batteries when needed for leveling.[/QUOTE]
The reason you are have a problem is your class C is built in plant 850 with the larger Outlaws and not in plant 650 with most of the other class Cs. Typically the class Cs have Battery Management Controller (but not on the Mercedes chassis) attached to the chassis battery and do not have an emergency start switch. The class A have a BIRD with an emergency start switch on the dash. Of course the super Cs are a very different animal and as you are finding out so are the class C Outlaws.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:45 PM   #155
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Thanks Beau388, the euphoria is great when fixing a problem, it's the perplexing hair pulling trying to get there, if you know what I mean.

Our class C, not a super C, does have the emergency start switch on the dash.
I really did not know what it was until I started reading this forum, and I still haven't tried it.

All my troubleshooting has been a solo effort, I am managing.
My second career I was licensed Chief Engineer-MODU, only my first career was as a Machinist/Machine Repairman, not so much electrical or electronic, but I am getting there, lol!

After discovering that my converter is in need of replacement, from my research during my at home schooling (I'm retired), now ordering one (today), I may wait till the weekend to play with the emergency start button.
I am expecting to hear the solenoid click noise, I assume it will make, to help me locate it, and help is always available on the weekend! (only one of us is retired).

By the time I get everything tip top, I won't want to upgrade to an A, even though we keep dreaming, lol.

New learning experiences, still beats shop labor costs, and I like the tinkering.

Do you know if it would be worthwhile, or detrimental, if I were to wire in a BIM?
Not sure about what is there now, that has failed.
Leveling low voltage error needs alternator help, now that's not working.
Even though ignition key is on run position first, error calls for help from alternator, to push voltage on coach batteries, so it can assist with the leveling hydraulic pump amperage demands.

That's what got me to this point, coming home from a week, the levelers almost did not make it retracted.
Once home, coach batteries were fairly far discharged, 5.94 vdc, they were not ruined, 3 days on charger, then individually load tested as I was searching battery compartment for a BIRD, or something...now I know...here I am...
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:07 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by 10scDust View Post
...Our class C, not a super C, does have the emergency start switch on the dash...After discovering that my converter is in need of replacement....
I have a emer switch too. Are you saying the chassis battery is 'supposed' to be charged by shore power via the converter? Thor told me 'no' and Beau seemed to agree. Please clarify when you get a chance?


Sooo darn confused...

(re:Help? Dead Chassis Battery)
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:21 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
I have a emer switch too. Are you saying the chassis battery is 'supposed' to be charged by shore power via the converter? Thor told me 'no' and Beau seemed to agree. Please clarify when you get a chance?


Sooo darn confused...

(re:Help? Dead Chassis Battery)
Well, no one in particular told me so.
I just deduced it from researching them, and mine did not put out 12vdc while 120vac was going into it.
My Google search learning trip taught me, lol.

I found one that looks very similar to mine and ordered it from Camping World, #58321, a WFCO WF-8945MBA.
Reading its description, it claims to charge, and not over-charge coach batteries on shore power.

Tell me what you think, once you have had a chance to research it.
I don't find any other battery charger onboard, so it makes sense to me.
And the 120 vac from shore power, goes through the breaker panel with all my outlets live, use switch in use, or store.
Only my fridge needs use switch on for its controls to work off 12vdc while cooling on 120vac (that I am aware at this point, plus lighting too).

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...CCA6&FORM=VIRE
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:58 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by gmc View Post
Are you saying Thor gave us the BIRD?
.


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Old 03-22-2019, 12:00 AM   #159
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Wow, Ed, I was just online to get help with my House battery questions,and I think you answered most all of 'em. I was wondering why there was only one negative line hooked to the house batteries, and a whole bunch of positives.Now i get the idea. As an addition, I found that when I went to winterize my unit, there was no negative cable going between the two house batteries, so in effect I only had one.Thanks again for the info (now downloaded).
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:28 AM   #160
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from the first page of the manual for my BIRD controller

"The BIRD (BI-DIRECTIONAL ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY) performs two important functions. It provides a
method of charging the coach battery from the engine alternator and charges the chassis battery from the
converter when the coach is plugged into shore power. When neither battery is being charged, the batteries
are isolated from each other to prevent the loads of one battery from inadvertently discharging the other battery."

Intellitech 00-00362-100 BIRD GAS
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