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Old 12-29-2020, 09:50 PM   #1
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane
State: Idaho
Posts: 19
THOR #18218
Converter or fuse?

I have a 2003 30' Thor Hurricane. yesterday morning my generator started up just like usual. In the evening I pressed the start for the generator and nothing happened. I had no power for anything. I started up my external generator and everything worked as usual. When I shut it off, again the internal generator would not start.
I spent most of today checking the brand new house batteries (two one week old 6-volt AGM's), they were fully charged. Then I checked all fuses that I could find, they were all good except I couldn't find the fuse between the positive battery terminal and the converter. I checked the converter as per a video I watched. With the external generator on everything I checked re the video checked OK except for the voltage between the unconnected negative wire and the positive terminal which the video said should be equal to the battery voltage. It was zero. So they said to look for a fuse on the positive wire between the converter and the battery. I couldn't find one but then that wire is buried in a maze of covered wires.
Any clues as to where it may be? Is that the most logical conclusion? It seems to be to me. It is an Intel Power 9130 converter and there is also a Light Automatic transfer switch which seems to be ok.
Any quick help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mike
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Old 12-29-2020, 10:16 PM   #2
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THOR #7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sang Froid View Post
I have a 2003 30' Thor Hurricane. yesterday morning my generator started up just like usual. In the evening I pressed the start for the generator and nothing happened. I had no power for anything. I started up my external generator and everything worked as usual. When I shut it off, again the internal generator would not start.
I spent most of today checking the brand new house batteries (two one week old 6-volt AGM's), they were fully charged. Then I checked all fuses that I could find, they were all good except I couldn't find the fuse between the positive battery terminal and the converter. I checked the converter as per a video I watched. With the external generator on everything I checked re the video checked OK except for the voltage between the unconnected negative wire and the positive terminal which the video said should be equal to the battery voltage. It was zero. So they said to look for a fuse on the positive wire between the converter and the battery. I couldn't find one but then that wire is buried in a maze of covered wires.
Any clues as to where it may be? Is that the most logical conclusion? It seems to be to me. It is an Intel Power 9130 converter and there is also a Light Automatic transfer switch which seems to be ok.
Any quick help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mike
Couldn't quite follow your troubleshooting referencing a video I've never seen so let's go with what I gathered the trouble symptom to be:

You can't start your onboard generator with fully charged house batteries?

If the house batteries are fully charged there is no reason to troubleshoot the converter, USE/STORE switch/latching relay, or reverse polarity fuses on the DC distribution panel.

So the problem is no 12 VDC to start the generator. There is a 100 Amp DC breaker near your house batteries fed from the positive side of your battery bank that supplies the starting power for the generator as well as the main power for the hydraulic levelers. it looks similar to:


That one is shown tripped - the flag is out. You reset it by pushing the flag back in. You trip it by pushing the button.

That's where I'd start. If you find out your house batteries are not really charged (how did you check them, BTW? Hopefully not by the status panel in the RV while plugged into SP), then we'll need to re-evaluate all your symptoms.
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Old 12-30-2020, 12:05 AM   #3
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane
State: Idaho
Posts: 19
THOR #18218
Converter or fuse?

Thanks Ted,
Here is the link to the video I referred to.



Not only can't I start the internal generator but I have no DC power at all. No lights, no refrigerator, no running water, no hot water, etc. That is why I suspected the converter and then the fuse as referred to in the video.

I don't understand your "USE/STORE switch/latching relay, or reverse polarity fuses on the DC distribution panel."

I did find boxes under the front hood engine compartment one labeled power and batteries. I checked every fuse there and in two other smaller boxes. I don't see anything resembling the pic you sent. There were relay switches in those boxes but I don't know how to check them.

Also, you mentioned power to the hydraulic jacks. They went out two days prior to this problem.

So I still need to know where the fuse is between the converter and the batteries. Is it an inline fuse somewhere along the positive wire?
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Old 12-30-2020, 01:30 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sang Froid View Post
Thanks Ted,
Here is the link to the video I referred to.



Not only can't I start the internal generator but I have no DC power at all. No lights, no refrigerator, no running water, no hot water, etc. That is why I suspected the converter and then the fuse as referred to in the video.

I don't understand your "USE/STORE switch/latching relay, or reverse polarity fuses on the DC distribution panel."

I did find boxes under the front hood engine compartment one labeled power and batteries. I checked every fuse there and in two other smaller boxes. I don't see anything resembling the pic you sent. There were relay switches in those boxes but I don't know how to check them.

Also, you mentioned power to the hydraulic jacks. They went out two days prior to this problem.

So I still need to know where the fuse is between the converter and the batteries. Is it an inline fuse somewhere along the positive wire?
There are two reverse polarity fuses on the bottom of your DC distribution panel - the one in the same location as all your AC breakers and other house DC fuses.




So looking at the video you referenced and your OP you found and checked your reverse polarity fuses and they are good?

The other "fuse" referenced in your video is generally a 50 Amp DC breaker between (and near) the house battery bank on the positive lead that heads towards the DC distribution Panel. It looks like the 100 amp one I referenced above.


The other item between your house batteries and the converter is a battery disconnect relay. It is a latching relay which means it stays in one of two positions selected by a control switch. It either connects the house battery bank to the DC loads and converter or disconnects it.
The control switch is commonly called a USE/STORE switch, a Salesman Switch, or a Battery Disconnect Switch


Attached is a good general diagram showing the DC distribution system. It may have components on it you don't have such as an inverter or a garage (for toy haulers), but the rest should be pretty accurate.
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Old 12-30-2020, 02:36 PM   #5
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane
State: Idaho
Posts: 19
THOR #18218
Converter or fuse?

Good morning Ted,
I had responded to your last post last night but when I clicked submit I had been logged out and had to relog in. I lost everything I had in my response. So here goes again.

My converter has only one fuse in the location indicated by the video I showed you. It was good. I checked to see if one may have fallen out although that is unlikely. There is a spot for only one fuse.

My distribution panel is on the side of the bed near the floor only two feet from the converter (which is under the head of the bed to which only a contortionist could get at). It has one breaker labeled converter. It is a 15amp breaker. I flicked it off and on and it didn't help. Is it possible the breaker is bad? I didn't see any fuses labeled reverse polarity fuse or something similar. I'll take a picture of it and you can see if there is something I am missing. You may have to zoom in on the photos to read them.

Since this is a 30 Amp RV I doubt there would be a 50Amp breaker nor a 100Amp fuse. Am I wrong to assume that?

As for a battery disconnect relay, I can't find anything resembling the photo you sent. My house batteries are just forward of the entry steps and sit on a slide-out tray. Both cables run through a hole in the back to the underside of the RV, exposed to the elements. I doubt they would put a battery disconnect relay under there. The negative line is fastened to the frame and the red positive line looks like it is going to the back end of the RV but is assembled with a bunch of other wiring wrapped in those plastic wraps with a slit along the length. The name eludes me right now. I'll try to follow it later today once it warms up outside.

My outside Honda eu2000i generator is now running and plugged into the shore outlet at the back. Everything is running fine with the outside generator so I have to guess the converter is doing its job. That leaves only the connection of the batteries to the Onan 4000W internal generator. The inside switch to start the generator is on the dashboard as is the Aux switch. which I have used when the chassis battery is dead to start the RV engine. So is there a fuse somewhere along those lines that may be out? Or are those switches somehow connected to the converter? There is a starter switch on the Onan. I assume they bypass the dash switches? I'll try starting from there to see if it will start. If it does, what does that mean?

I've run out of questions.
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Old 12-30-2020, 03:34 PM   #6
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THOR #7035
As you have a 2003 coach some of my experience may be different from what you are encountering as my first non-pop-up RV was a 2004.

That being said:

Realize when we are talking electricity in an RV we have two different systems: 120 VAC (30 Amp Service) supply and loads
12 VDC battery/converter supply and loads.

The 50 amp and 100 amp breakers discussed above are DC breakers and completely separate from the AC breakers in your breaker panel picture - they have nothing to do with your "30 Amp Service" and they are not "battery disconnects" although if tripped they certainly do disconnect the battery from the loads the breakers supply.

To add to the confusion, your PD9130 converter is a "30 amp converter" which means it is capable of charging the house battery bank at a rate of 30 DC amps.

Unfortunately, the Progressive Dynamics site just has a general owners manual to cover all the 9100 series converters and you can see by the attached diagram it may have one or more fuses on the converter, they don't tell you exactly.

The bottom line on the AC to the converter and DC from the converter side of this troubleshooting exercise is that if you have 13.6 VDC (more or less) coming out of the converter when you have SP or your external generator running then the converter is supplying what it needs to.

Gotta go take care of grandkids now but I'll be back.
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Old 12-30-2020, 10:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sang Froid View Post
My outside Honda eu2000i generator is now running and plugged into the shore outlet at the back. Everything is running fine with the outside generator so I have to guess the converter is doing its job. That leaves only the connection of the batteries to the Onan 4000W internal generator. The inside switch to start the generator is on the dashboard as is the Aux switch. which I have used when the chassis battery is dead to start the RV engine. So is there a fuse somewhere along those lines that may be out? Or are those switches somehow connected to the converter? There is a starter switch on the Onan. I assume they bypass the dash switches? I'll try starting from there to see if it will start. If it does, what does that mean?

I've run out of questions.
OK, I'm back,

So with the Honda generator running you said "Everything is running fine with the outside generator so I have to guess the converter is doing its job. That leaves only the connection of the batteries to the Onan 4000W internal generator." So I assume the interior lights are running, the fridge is working, etc?

Are the house batteries charging? If so, I would agree you are back to your original trouble symptom of no power to start the generator Have you put a voltmeter on the main positive cable to the generator and measured it to ground to see if voltage has made it that far? If you have house battery voltage at the generator it may be a switch or control power issue preventing your generator from cranking. Have you tried starting the generator at the switch on the generator?
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Old 12-31-2020, 02:33 AM   #8
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane
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THOR #18218
Converter or fuse?

Good evening Ted,

I figured it out and am totally embarrassed to say how.

I spent most of the day under my RV following cables to the front, to the generator, and back to the converter and DC panels. I went through everything in the front, just about broke my back looking under and behind the dashboard, and was seriously considering taking the dashboard off to look behind it at things I could not see.

I took another look at the manual for the generator and saw the owner's manual for the RV and decided to carefully read through the troubleshooting which wasn't very long. I was looking for something along the lines of what you mentioned - The control switch is commonly called a USE/STORE switch, a Salesman Switch, or a Battery Disconnect Switch.

BAM! It hit me like an anvil dropping in my head. BATTERY STORAGE CONTROL!! I was sitting on the outdoor step and turned around and looked inside right above the steps on the left and saw this attached photo. I've known about it since I bought this RV but I never put this RV in storage and never had a reason to disconnect it. I have no idea how the right switch got pushed to disconnect. I jumped up pushed the right switch to connect, went to the front, and hit the generator start and BAM it worked!

Sorry to have wasted a lot of your time but I did learn a lot from you. Thank you very much.

I'm afraid to ask for help with the jacks control but that can wait until the new year.

Happy New Year! I've started on a bottle of wine with a nice dinner of Alaska salmon and mixed vegetables.
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Old 12-31-2020, 03:33 AM   #9
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Glad you figured it out. I don't consider it a waste of time trying to help someone with an issue and people coming to this thread in the future may also learn something from it.

Happy New Year to you and good luck with the jacks.
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Old 12-31-2020, 10:32 AM   #10
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Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,286
THOR #15553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sang Froid View Post
Good morning Ted,
I had responded to your last post last night but when I clicked submit I had been logged out and had to relog in. I lost everything I had in my response. So here goes again.

My converter has only one fuse in the location indicated by the video I showed you. It was good. I checked to see if one may have fallen out although that is unlikely. There is a spot for only one fuse.

My distribution panel is on the side of the bed near the floor only two feet from the converter (which is under the head of the bed to which only a contortionist could get at). It has one breaker labeled converter. It is a 15amp breaker. I flicked it off and on and it didn't help. Is it possible the breaker is bad? I didn't see any fuses labeled reverse polarity fuse or something similar. I'll take a picture of it and you can see if there is something I am missing. You may have to zoom in on the photos to read them.

Since this is a 30 Amp RV I doubt there would be a 50Amp breaker nor a 100Amp fuse. Am I wrong to assume that?

As for a battery disconnect relay, I can't find anything resembling the photo you sent. My house batteries are just forward of the entry steps and sit on a slide-out tray. Both cables run through a hole in the back to the underside of the RV, exposed to the elements. I doubt they would put a battery disconnect relay under there. The negative line is fastened to the frame and the red positive line looks like it is going to the back end of the RV but is assembled with a bunch of other wiring wrapped in those plastic wraps with a slit along the length. The name eludes me right now. I'll try to follow it later today once it warms up outside.

My outside Honda eu2000i generator is now running and plugged into the shore outlet at the back. Everything is running fine with the outside generator so I have to guess the converter is doing its job. That leaves only the connection of the batteries to the Onan 4000W internal generator. The inside switch to start the generator is on the dashboard as is the Aux switch. which I have used when the chassis battery is dead to start the RV engine. So is there a fuse somewhere along those lines that may be out? Or are those switches somehow connected to the converter? There is a starter switch on the Onan. I assume they bypass the dash switches? I'll try starting from there to see if it will start. If it does, what does that mean?

I've run out of questions.
yes, you would be wrong. Your 30 amp service for the camper is 120 volt AC. The 100 amp fuse and the 50 amp breaker are 12 volt DC. Two different systems.

https://www.technorv.com/articles/ho...Q63nbGg0ktkmuc
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