Driving your Axis/Vegas

[mcr1010]

That would be a helpful report since the steering play, wander etc. seems to be a common issue with the Axis-Vegas. Seems to be subjective as to individual drivers finding it a PIA or not. I will be taking mine back to the front end shop next week, where I had my first alignment done and explain to them what is happening. Some drivers report that a positive caster helps with the steering. This shop does a lot of suspension work on RV's. They had 3 RV's in bays with the Ford E-350 chassis when there before.
I need to have the alignment checked anyway since I hit a hidden pot hole in Jan. on a trip. BTW, in checking around the web on various forums, the Safe-T-Plus has a good rep. as you probably know.
Will be looking forward to your report.
Thanks

[mcr1010]

Last week, I took the Vegas back to the alignment shop where the initial alignment was done and explained to them that it did not track properly, was wandering and required constant wheel adjustment. They mentioned that sometimes the book specs on alignment are not the best and that they rely on the drivers for feedback. Tomorrow it will be ready and will see how it drives. If that does not help, I will consider adding a Safe-T-Plus or some stabilizer bars.

While I was browsing over on irv2, I came across an excellent article for download; "Motorhome Handling Problems & Solutions" by Gary Brinck. He pretty much covers all the problems and cures for RV handling. Below is the link to the download.
iRV2 Forums - Files - Motorhome Handling Problems & Solutions

[sikorge]

JamieG (and others),
I learned about the 59400 adjustable bushing from another thread. The Ford factory puts in a bushing that has an ear on it where a bolt intersects it so it doesn't turn. the replacement bushing 59400 does not have this ear so it can be turned to adjust the Castor setting. I went to an independant alignment shop that does trucks and motorhomes. I was told that when the Thor factory puts all that 'weight' on the chassis it makes the top of the front wheels tilt outward due to the IFS. This is where the adjustable bushing comes into play. I had this done earlier this week and it made a BIG difference in handling, but there is still a little drift to the left so I'm taking it back to the alignment shop for a little tweak. Next up I will be putting on a Roadmaster RSCC Reflex Stabilizer Unit (has a spring on it to help to return the sterring to center) to replace the stock unit. That will really help. I will also replace the stock torsion bars with Hellwig Front #7217 1.75" dia and Hellwig Rear #7215 1.625" dia so to minimize the tilting/leaning of the coach when turning. Looking forward to meking these changes!
Jerry

[cleverdodo]

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Hi, just joined the forum, where from the UK I bought
my Axis in Florida and had it shipped over to the UK, this is just to say that we have had no problems with the unit swaying, it drives like a dream, I think yours could do with an alignment, one problem we did have was that the radio is linked to the leisure batteries and doesn't turn off from the ignition hence the leisure batteries run down over night when you our wild camping, to get over this I had a switch put in so we can turn of the radio and it seems to have done the trick.

I'm looking at the Vegas from Signature in the UK. I will need to modify it a bit as I use a wheelchair but as a wheelchair user I don't pay VAT on a new vehicle so the modification cost should be covered by the VT saving. I wonder how you re finding your vehicle. Is it costing a fortune to drive it long distances? I really like the Vegas as it has lots of room for the wheelchair but do worry about how will carry out any repairs and if it is going to be a killer on fuel economy. Signature have about three used Vegas vehicles right now and that bothers me. Why are folk getting rid of their RUV so soon after getting them? There is a company that have an almost new Winnebago Via which I am also considering that comes in at the same price point as the Vegas. Any feedback very appreciated. Thanks

[JamieGeek]

For your calculations you can use about 25 L/100 km for gas mileage to figure the cost--we've been getting just under 9 mpg here in the U.S.

[cleverdodo]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

For your calculations you can use about 25 L/100 km for gas mileage to figure the cost--we've been getting just under 9 mpg here in the U.S.

Thanks Jamie over here in the UK 9mpg makes for a costly ride on fuel but it is a sweet RUV I really like it. What made you chose it over other RUVs like the Via?

[roadrunner]

Hi, I have had a few little problems, but nothing to right home about, basically the vehicle is fine, with regards to Signature motorhomes having a few for sale, its like a lot of people they have more money than sense and swap there motorhome every 5 minutes! regarding how much it costs to run, I have been getting about 12/13 mpg, pulling a car I get about 10/11 mpg that's UK gallons, you can get it converted to LPG but I worked it out and you would have to drive 28000 miles to get the cost of the conversion back, so I decided not to bother, regarding handling mine drives like a dream and is very quiet, parts are not a problem, and servicing is not a problem, I took mine to a local hgv garage, I got the fuel and oil filters of eBay and the garage did the service. I have always had American motorhomes and the Axis is a great size for the UK and EU roads and campsites, try not to buy from signature, you will save a fortune by bringing one in from the states yourself, its very straight forward, if you need any advice I can put you in the right direction, I used signature for the conversion work and to get it through the VOSA test, and they where very helpful and weren't bothered about me importing it myself. give me a call anytime 07540180456 regards Alan (roadrunner) by the way I hire motorhomes out, and would hire you the axis for you to try, just a thought.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

For your calculations you can use about 25 L/100 km for gas mileage to figure the cost--we've been getting just under 9 mpg here in the U.S.

Under 9 MPG? I was under the impression many RUV owners were getting in the 10 to 11 MPG range? I recall Thor originally threw around 12 MPG but I haven't seen anyone report fuel economy quite that good. Still, 9 MPG is not very good for such a small motorhome.

On my last long 5,000-mile trip in a larger Class C rental I averaged 8.6 MPG (if I recall correctly) so I assumed the 10 to 11 MPG reports were reasonable. Do you think your "under 9" should be expected? How fast do you drive?

[cleverdodo]

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Hi, I have had a few little problems, but nothing to right home about, basically the vehicle is fine, with regards to Signature motorhomes having a few for sale, its like a lot of people they have more money than sense and swap there motorhome every 5 minutes! regarding how much it costs to run, I have been getting about 12/13 mpg, pulling a car I get about 10/11 mpg that's UK gallons, you can get it converted to LPG but I worked it out and you would have to drive 28000 miles to get the cost of the conversion back, so I decided not to bother, regarding handling mine drives like a dream and is very quiet, parts are not a problem, and servicing is not a problem, I took mine to a local hgv garage, I got the fuel and oil filters of eBay and the garage did the service. I have always had American motorhomes and the Axis is a great size for the UK and EU roads and campsites, try not to buy from signature, you will save a fortune by bringing one in from the states yourself, its very straight forward, if you need any advice I can put you in the right direction, I used signature for the conversion work and to get it through the VOSA test, and they where very helpful and weren't bothered about me importing it myself. give me a call anytime 07540180456 regards Alan (roadrunner) by the way I hire motorhomes out, and would hire you the axis for you to try, just a thought.

Thanks Alan, For my own vehicle I need to gift a wheelchair lift fitted to the side so have accompany going to visit Signature to look and evaluate if the Vegas is suitable for the work. I did get in one at Signature the other day and apart from a few small mods it was pretty workable as it is. To get the VAT zero rated I need to complete the wheelchair modifications so would need to find out at which point the VAT is due when importing. When did you have to pay the VAT was it only after VOSA certified it or was it when it arrived in the UK?

Another company have a Winnebago Via almost new and I can get it without VAT it will come in at 72k GBP hey are 128k US so it is good price. It doesn't look as nice as the Vegas and seems less roomy inside but it is a very nice vehicle. Do you know the Via or have any views on them?

If the coach building company say they can modify the Vegas I may ask you if I can rent yours for a day to try it out (leaving the wheelchair behind!) Thanks Andrew

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

Under 9 MPG? I was under the impression many RUV owners were getting in the 10 to 11 MPG range? I recall Thor originally threw around 12 MPG but I haven't seen anyone report fuel economy quite that good. Still, 9 MPG is not very good for such a small motorhome.

I consider 9 mpg pretty good for an 11,500 lb brick powered by the V-10. The V-10 is a pretty thirsty beast.
Our 8,000 lb F-350 barely got 11. When we purchased the Axis the sales person claimed we would be getting 14 mpg--I just about laughed in their face (this is the 3rd V-10 we've owned).
Keep in mind I drive it 70-75 mph with the generator running. If I dropped that down to 65 I bet I'd be closer to 10 mpg.
In addition our Axis has close to 6,000 miles on it. The V-10 usually picks up about 0.5 - 1 mpg around the 10,000 mile mark as it breaks in (which I did notice on both our Super Duty's).

Originally Posted by cleverdodo

What made you chose it over other RUVs like the Via?

We really didn't look at the Via that much. Basically went to an RV show not expecting to purchase and fell in love with the Axis. Ended up going to the show for all the days of the show (even bringing our son one day for him to look at it). Had the dealer give us a price on a trade and a few weeks later drove it home...

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

...cut....

Keep in mind I drive it 70-75 mph with the generator running. If I dropped that down to 65 I bet I'd be closer to 10 mpg.

....cut....

That explains a lot. I find the V10 to be an efficient engine, although it can't undo the high power demand of a "brick" traveling through the air at 70 to 75 MPH. I use to drive my small Class C at those speeds and got 7 to 8 MPG. Slowing down makes a big difference. And now that I have more time I can drive slower. Keeping it between 60 and 65 (if not holding up traffic) seems like a good speed I can live with.

At your speeds the 6.8L V10 is about as good as it gets (engine wise), although at 60 to 65 MPH the smaller 5.4L V8 should do a little better in a small RUV. Unfortunately that engine will be phased out before the V10 which is one reason Thor never offered it in an Axis/Vegas. Would have been nice to try one just for kicks to see if it did any better.

[JamieGeek]

You can eek out an extra 1 mpg or so by putting a custom tune on the engine. I had a 5 Star Tune on my F-350 that was great. It increased both power and mpg (although I have to admit that the increased power was much more fun ).

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

You can eek out an extra 1 mpg or so by putting a custom tune on the engine. I had a 5 Star Tune on my F-350 that was great. It increased both power and mpg (although I have to admit that the increased power was much more fun ).

For my type of driving which involves a lot of steady-state highway routes, I'm not a big fan of altering Ford engineering efforts without a good explanation of how an engine is going to get 10% more efficient. That's huge as engines go.

At light loads there is more room for improvement, but on larger motorhomes the thermal efficiency of the engine is already pretty high. You can always run an engine leaner trying to squeeze a little more efficiency out of it but that comes at too high a risk for me.

I've studied the brake-specific-fuel-consumption maps for modern engines and don't see how it could be made much higher for the V10 when load requires burning fuel at 8 to 10 gallons per hour. On the other hand, if we optimized an Axis/Vegas to get 12 MPG by driving at 60 MPG (engine load results in only 5 gallons per hour of fuel), then the 6.8L V10 is simply too large to run at optimum efficiency. That's where a 5.4L V8 should do better. At 70 to 75 MPH you might as well have the V10.

[Oldchief]

Newby here. Don't yet own an Axis or Vegas but seriously considering a 24.1. Was reading this thread regarding the handling issues of the Ford E chassis units. Up until a couple years ago, we had a 2012 PleasureWay class B van camper, built on the Ford E350 chassis. We didn't do our due diligence before buying the PW and didn't know they were notorious for "wandering" all over the road. Our's proved to be a perfect example of this problem. So much so that my wife refused to drive it...and she regularly drove our Winnebago Aspect 29' with no problems. The PleasureWay was so bad that we got rid of it after a couple years and putting only maybe 2k miles on it. So, I'm wondering if the handling issue is some sort of design flaw in the shorter wheelbase Ford E chassis. As I mentioned, our 29' Aspect on the Ford E450 chassis drove great but the PleasureWay, on the E350 chassis, was terrible.
Our decision to buy an Axis or Vegas 24.1 will be based on the wife's experience driving one. It it handles anything like our PW did, it's not for us.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Oldchief

Our decision to buy an Axis or Vegas 24.1 will be based on the wife's experience driving one. It it handles anything like our PW did, it's not for us.

Interesting: If you read around here you will quickly realize that how they handle can be significantly modified/improved with a few aftermarket parts.

When you test drive one ask the dealer if that particular unit has had an alignment--it will make all the difference in the world (if they answer "no" I would argue that you walk away and don't drive it--find one that has been aligned).

[Oldchief]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Interesting: If you read around here you will quickly realize that how they handle can be significantly modified/improved with a few aftermarket parts.

When you test drive one ask the dealer if that particular unit has had an alignment--it will make all the difference in the world (if they answer "no" I would argue that you walk away and don't drive it--find one that has been aligned).

PleasureWay developed a special alignment spec for their units that varied from Ford's recommended settings. Some PW owners said it helped handling and others claimed it didn't. Another factor in the PW problem was the China made Hankook tires Ford was putting on the E350 chassis PW was using. A number of PW owners switched to Michelin tires and got some improvement. Seems to me that Thor would insure all their units were aligned properly for their units, before any were ever delivered to new owners.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Oldchief

Seems to me that Thor would insure all their units were aligned properly for their units, before any were ever delivered to new owners.

Nope: Thor would rather pay to create a sticker that they put next to the drivers seat instructing the owner to get an alignment--look in any Axis/Vegas at all the stickers next to the drivers seat you'll find the alignment one. It is also in the owner's manual and our dealer recommended it at least three times during the walkthrough/PDI.

You are assuming Thor wants to make a quality product; invalid assumption.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Oldchief

Newby here. Don't yet own an Axis or Vegas but seriously considering a 24.1. Was reading this thread regarding the handling issues of the Ford E chassis units. Up until a couple years ago, we had a 2012 PleasureWay class B van camper, built on the Ford E350 chassis. We didn't do our due diligence before buying the PW and didn't know they were notorious for "wandering" all over the road. Our's proved to be a perfect example of this problem. So much so that my wife refused to drive it...and she regularly drove our Winnebago Aspect 29' with no problems. The PleasureWay was so bad that we got rid of it after a couple years and putting only maybe 2k miles on it. So, I'm wondering if the handling issue is some sort of design flaw in the shorter wheelbase Ford E chassis. As I mentioned, our 29' Aspect on the Ford E450 chassis drove great but the PleasureWay, on the E350 chassis, was terrible.
Our decision to buy an Axis or Vegas 24.1 will be based on the wife's experience driving one. It it handles anything like our PW did, it's not for us.

A big problem I see with Ford E-350 vans (I presently have one) is that the rear axle is only around 66.6 inches wide tire-center to tire-center (rear track). That's only about 5'-6".

Because the narrow rear axle carries much of the total weight, when you build a 10-foot-tall (or taller) motorhome out of that van, the physics of good handling are not going to be on your side. Personally, I'm surprised more Class Bs built on these old chassis don't roll over more often.

A longer wheelbase like on Axis/Vegas should help some, but a Ford van with 138-inch wheelbase won't handle poorly mainly because of short wheelbase. The biggest problem causing many RVs to handle poorly is that they are too tall relative to their width (primarily track) and their center of gravity is too high also. In some cases a very long rear overhang also causes handling problems.

I hate to see owners spending money, time, and effort fixing handling problems that should have never been there in the first place. Unfortunately, we collectively keep buying too many motorhomes that handle poorly, so manufacturers will keep building them.

[vkb]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Every Econoline van vehicle (e.g. E-Series) I've ever driven from Ford has had this play in it. It's just the nature of the beast.

Even the few Chevy's and lone Dodge vans I've driven have exhibited similar behavior. Must be something in a full sized van's steering geometry.

Ron agrees with Jamie ... Ford E series trucks and vans are notorious for the 'play' in steering ... As Jamie states..it is more noticeable since we are driving a BIG BOX down the road.

[Oneilkeys]

It's the everyone wants a "bigger boat" syndrome. Manufactures keep building longer and higher RVs on the same chassis' because the manufacturers only have the equipment and expertise for that chassis and/or the RV owner is only comfortable with a Class B or Class C. I look at some of those 31' and longer Class C's on Ford E chassis and wonder how they stay on the road.