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Old 10-29-2019, 09:49 PM   #1
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Model: Tuscany XTE 36MQ
State: Arizona
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THOR #10916
Angry House Batteries

Hi,

I have a 2015 Tuscany 36MQ and having an issue with my house batteries, which are about 1 year old. When I put the coach in storage, I turn the house batteries off, with switch near door, and lock the door and go home. I go to the coach every 2-3 weeks to check on it and run the engine and generator to exercise them. Just recently, after being at the coach 2 weeks ago, we went to exercise it and the house batteries would not turn on. The coach engine did start and was able to run that for a while, but no luck with the house batteries. In the past, this has occurred a couple of times and if the house batteries wouldn't come on, I would plug the coach in to a 110v outlet available to us to use and it would come back to life and show that my batteries were at 3/4 or Full capacity from the red LED's inside the coach utility panel. Strange. Also, the outlets available have been difficult to use based on GFCI issues and it tripping and not keeping a steady current and that has caused an issue trying to keep it plugged. I'm addressing that with the storage manager. Any ideas anyone could share on the house battery issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Craig

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Old 10-29-2019, 10:08 PM   #2
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You could always try starting up the chassis engine (with the coach batteries switch set to "On", and let that engine give them a charge.
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:34 PM   #3
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Storage facility has GFI outlets. You will have to turn off your GFI circuits. SOMETIMES 2 gif's in series will not work. I have proven that statement with 2 of my trailers side by side. Nothing your storage guy can or will do about it.
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by dchouk View Post
Hi,



I have a 2015 Tuscany 36MQ and having an issue with my house batteries, which are about 1 year old. When I put the coach in storage, I turn the house batteries off, with switch near door, and lock the door and go home. I go to the coach every 2-3 weeks to check on it and run the engine and generator to exercise them. Just recently, after being at the coach 2 weeks ago, we went to exercise it and the house batteries would not turn on. The coach engine did start and was able to run that for a while, but no luck with the house batteries. In the past, this has occurred a couple of times and if the house batteries wouldn't come on, I would plug the coach in to a 110v outlet available to us to use and it would come back to life and show that my batteries were at 3/4 or Full capacity from the red LED's inside the coach utility panel. Strange. Also, the outlets available have been difficult to use based on GFCI issues and it tripping and not keeping a steady current and that has caused an issue trying to keep it plugged. I'm addressing that with the storage manager. Any ideas anyone could share on the house battery issue would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks!

Craig


I had a gfci that no one could fix. I just took it out and replaced with a regular plug. My MH stays plugged in at my house. Before I got the 30 amp service I was doing the same thing you are.....except I would start the coach first and then turn the house batteries back on. Not sure that makes a difference but it’s how I did it.
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:13 PM   #5
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There are always some small parasitic draws on your batteries when switched off at the door use/store switch. And it will take hours to charge them back to full once they are really run down. You might be better off to disconnect your battery cables or installing a disconnect switch in your battery compartment.
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Old 10-30-2019, 12:10 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by jannnda View Post
I had a gfci that no one could fix. I just took it out and replaced with a regular plug. My MH stays plugged in at my house. Before I got the 30 amp service I was doing the same thing you are.....except I would start the coach first and then turn the house batteries back on. Not sure that makes a difference but it’s how I did it.
You do not FIX bad GFI's you replace them. Put a new one back in. 2 GFI's in series SOMETIMES don't play nice. GFI's have absolutely nothing to do with batteries. If you plug into a GFI shore power circuit you MIGHT have problems. GFI's are 120 volts not 12 volts.
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Old 10-30-2019, 12:18 PM   #7
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You do not FIX bad GFI's you replace them. Put a new one back in. 2 GFI's in series SOMETIMES don't play nice. GFI's have absolutely nothing to do with batteries. If you plug into a GFI shore power circuit you MIGHT have problems. GFI's are 120 volts not 12 volts.


My son-in-law is a master electrician. He looked at it and I took it to a warranty RV service shop. Neither could find the issue. I just took it out.
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Old 10-30-2019, 12:32 PM   #8
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GFCI outlets sometimes to not play well with other GFCI circuits, so tripping your breakers for your own GFCI circuits might 'fix' the problem when you are plugged into a GFCI shore power outlet. It's doubtful it's any problem with the storage facility, though replacing their outlet 'could' also help solve the issue.

As for most coaches, when you simply hit the 'Use/Store' switch, to 'OFF', you are cutting off 'most' 12v attached draws, though SOME will continue, such as Co2 detector, Smoke detector, etc. Add to that, Batteries can be fickle, no matter the past and how they 'used' to perform under even the same circumstances, although the fact that your panel actually showed them as 3/4 or more charged, it may not be your battery bank after all, but your 'Use/Store' switch not engaging.
There is a latching RELAY that controls this 'On, Off' latch, and the magnetized control must latch it to either side that you are asking for...ON for USE, OFF for STORE. My controller is called a 'RV Custom Products 12v Latching Relay', found in my Inverter bay where my other devices and another 12v fuse panel are located.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:45 PM   #9
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My son-in-law is a master electrician. He looked at it and I took it to a warranty RV service shop. Neither could find the issue. I just took it out.
I'm guessing you son has no RV experience. It does happen as posted by Turner Fam.

As a Master Electrician for over 35 years, removing the GFI is not the answer. Now that you have a 30 amp hook up replace the GFI.
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Old 10-30-2019, 02:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cavie View Post
I'm guessing you son has no RV experience. It does happen as posted by Turner Fam.

As a Master Electrician for over 35 years, removing the GFI is not the answer. Now that you have a 30 amp hook up replace the GFI.


I won’t detail the entire story, no one has that amount of time. But over a six month period I took the MH to eight different people. The authorized Tiffin warranty provider was my favorite. They could not get a GFCI to work ever. They called Thor and did everything they suggested and nothing worked.

Please tell me the down side of not having a GFCI? And what I should look out for or not do. The choice of adding a (imho) GFCI is not an option. I respect your 35 years of experience, I feel this is the only solution available to me. Thanks
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Old 10-30-2019, 04:17 PM   #11
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...I can think of few reasons to not install a 'standard' outlet in most places, as the factories are just following electrical procedures when it comes to GFCI circuit placements, but...

RVs have limited Main Breaker panel space, SO, the circuits that are provided for outlets, generally only two or three, have at least one circuit that is controlled by a GFCI OUTLET, with all the others downstream, EVEN IF THEY DON'T really 'need' TO BE GFCI protected.
Since the 'first' of the outlets on this circuit is typically the GFCI one, all the others on the same circuit will therefore be protected by the GFCI, which could be another 6 or 8 outlets. Yes, some of those are in places that may need it, but others are just on the same line because of convenience of wiring, floor plan placement, and because they are just on the same 'side' of the coach, which is typically also part of 'why' outlets are on a certain circuit.
A GFCI protected outlet above the kitchen sink might make sense. One in the bathroom close the sink may also qualify. An outside outlet certainly would need it. Most others that just 'happen' to be on that circuit probably do not.

One of the issues is that there is not a 'single outlet GFCI protection' device - either the whole circuit is protected by a master GFCI Breaker, or it is protected by a GFCI Outlet at the start of the run of outlets. Not to say that you couldn't have an outlet or two 'before' the GFCI Outlet, but that's not typically how the factories wire these circuits - labeling a circuit in the Breaker Panel as 'GFCI' would be problematic if that were the case, since all the outlets would not be. Most use a 'label' that shows which are GFCI protected downstream, though.

Those who are 'master electricians' get my applause, but I also have to admit that 'wiring' in RVs, especially those with 50amp supply and/or 'whole house' Inverters, create wiring scenarios that defy the 'typical' home wiring scheme, and codes.
For instance, while 50amp RVs are 'receiving' true 240v service from the rv park or campground's power outlet, most do NOT use the 240v service, they 'SPLIT' the two hot legs to be used on two 'sides' of the RV's Main Panel, which is really why a 50amp RV shore cord and outlet use the NEUTRAL. While some 240v outlets and appliances don't need a Neutral, but just use a third wire, the Ground, an RV is different, as the usage on both 'sides' can be different - one air conditioner might be running on the 'left' side, and not much else on the 'right', so the Neutral balances out the load. My son's Nissan Leaf charger, on the other hand, which is a 240v service outlet, is only two hot legs and a Ground, since the charge is designed to pull the exact same amperage from both legs, all the time.

Whole House Inverters can also bring into the situation a difference on how the wiring within an RV is designed, as only OUTLETS are powered by the Inverter, but those outlets also are powered by Shore Power or the Generator. So, the Main Panel needs to have a distinct 'sub panel' for those outlet circuits, whether a separate panel, or, like mine, an 'Integrated' sub panel, which is really a 'third' power bus, for those circuit breakers only. The Inverter has a built-in 120v relay, allowing Shore power or Generator power to pass thru, when available, but switching over to the Inverter power when not. This is accomplished by a circuit breaker dedicated to the Inverter, giving it power when plugged in or on generator, for both pass-thru power and Battery Charging.
The 'third' power bus receives it's power from the Inverter, but the 'pass thru' of Shore Power or Generator power also powers this buss.
The first and second power busses in the main panel are powered by each different leg of incoming 240v power, but outputting only 120v to each side. While you have a typical 50amp double pole Main breaker in your panel, the panel isn't typically designed to accept any double pole individual circuit breakers since nothing in the RV needs 240v, with the exception of some of the high-end Coaches on the market - maybe for a household clothes dryer.
(Some high-end Prevost and other coaches actually have TWO 50amp shore power inputs, believe it or not - but that's because many tour buses also have 5 or 6 or more roof Air Conditioners, a 240v clothes dryer, etc., and also have 20kw generators, or even TWO)


and this is not even to mention the 12v side of things, or that the Alternator also provides charging to the House batteries, etc. : ) Smile, it's FUN!
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Old 10-30-2019, 04:31 PM   #12
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http://www.thorforums.com/forums/att...1&d=1572453024

I'd follow him into a battle over electrical issues anytime...
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
...I can think of few reasons to not install a 'standard' outlet in most places, as the factories are just following electrical procedures when it comes to GFCI circuit placements, but...

RVs have limited Main Breaker panel space, SO, the circuits that are provided for outlets, generally only two or three, have at least one circuit that is controlled by a GFCI OUTLET, with all the others downstream, EVEN IF THEY DON'T really 'need' TO BE GFCI protected.
Since the 'first' of the outlets on this circuit is typically the GFCI one, all the others on the same circuit will therefore be protected by the GFCI, which could be another 6 or 8 outlets. Yes, some of those are in places that may need it, but others are just on the same line because of convenience of wiring, floor plan placement, and because they are just on the same 'side' of the coach, which is typically also part of 'why' outlets are on a certain circuit.
A GFCI protected outlet above the kitchen sink might make sense. One in the bathroom close the sink may also qualify. An outside outlet certainly would need it. Most others that just 'happen' to be on that circuit probably do not.

One of the issues is that there is not a 'single outlet GFCI protection' device - either the whole circuit is protected by a master GFCI Breaker, or it is protected by a GFCI Outlet at the start of the run of outlets. Not to say that you couldn't have an outlet or two 'before' the GFCI Outlet, but that's not typically how the factories wire these circuits - labeling a circuit in the Breaker Panel as 'GFCI' would be problematic if that were the case, since all the outlets would not be. Most use a 'label' that shows which are GFCI protected downstream, though.

Those who are 'master electricians' get my applause, but I also have to admit that 'wiring' in RVs, especially those with 50amp supply and/or 'whole house' Inverters, create wiring scenarios that defy the 'typical' home wiring scheme, and codes.
For instance, while 50amp RVs are 'receiving' true 240v service from the rv park or campground's power outlet, most do NOT use the 240v service, they 'SPLIT' the two hot legs to be used on two 'sides' of the RV's Main Panel, which is really why a 50amp RV shore cord and outlet use the NEUTRAL. While some 240v outlets and appliances don't need a Neutral, but just use a third wire, the Ground, an RV is different, as the usage on both 'sides' can be different - one air conditioner might be running on the 'left' side, and not much else on the 'right', so the Neutral balances out the load. My son's Nissan Leaf charger, on the other hand, which is a 240v service outlet, is only two hot legs and a Ground, since the charge is designed to pull the exact same amperage from both legs, all the time.

Whole House Inverters can also bring into the situation a difference on how the wiring within an RV is designed, as only OUTLETS are powered by the Inverter, but those outlets also are powered by Shore Power or the Generator. So, the Main Panel needs to have a distinct 'sub panel' for those outlet circuits, whether a separate panel, or, like mine, an 'Integrated' sub panel, which is really a 'third' power bus, for those circuit breakers only. The Inverter has a built-in 120v relay, allowing Shore power or Generator power to pass thru, when available, but switching over to the Inverter power when not. This is accomplished by a circuit breaker dedicated to the Inverter, giving it power when plugged in or on generator, for both pass-thru power and Battery Charging.
The 'third' power bus receives it's power from the Inverter, but the 'pass thru' of Shore Power or Generator power also powers this buss.
The first and second power busses in the main panel are powered by each different leg of incoming 240v power, but outputting only 120v to each side. While you have a typical 50amp double pole Main breaker in your panel, the panel isn't typically designed to accept any double pole individual circuit breakers since nothing in the RV needs 240v, with the exception of some of the high-end Coaches on the market - maybe for a household clothes dryer.
(Some high-end Prevost and other coaches actually have TWO 50amp shore power inputs, believe it or not - but that's because many tour buses also have 5 or 6 or more roof Air Conditioners, a 240v clothes dryer, etc., and also have 20kw generators, or even TWO)


and this is not even to mention the 12v side of things, or that the Alternator also provides charging to the House batteries, etc. : ) Smile, it's FUN!


Wow that bounced off the top of my head!! The GFCI had 3 plugs in line. Bathroom sink, kitchen sink and the outdoor plug. That’s it 3 plugs. My wife trips the breaker from time to time with her hair dryer.

My question is what is the downside to not having that GFCI installed? Please dummy the answer down a little for me. Thanks
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Old 10-30-2019, 07:26 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by jannnda View Post
wow that bounced off the top of my head!! The gfci had 3 plugs in line. Bathroom sink, kitchen sink and the outdoor plug. That’s it 3 plugs. My wife trips the breaker from time to time with her hair dryer.

My question is what is the downside to not having that gfci installed? Please dummy the answer down a little for me. Thanks
ELECTROCUTION! All electrical codes require a GFCI protected duplex receptacle any time there is a water source within 6 ft. The basic reason all receptacles are 120 volts in NA is the resistance of DRY skin prevents electrocution should you come in contact with a hot wire. A sweat covered or wet hand provides no resistance. The best solution would be to install a 20 amp GFCI circuit breaker in the power center and run 12 ga romex to the bathroom.
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Old 10-30-2019, 10:05 PM   #15
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ELECTROCUTION! All electrical codes require a GFCI protected duplex receptacle any time there is a water source within 6 ft. The basic reason all receptacles are 120 volts in NA is the resistance of DRY skin prevents electrocution should you come in contact with a hot wire. A sweat covered or wet hand provides no resistance. The best solution would be to install a 20 amp GFCI circuit breaker in the power center and run 12 ga romex to the bathroom.


Thanks for your response. Not sure if it answers my question.

I have owned many houses that were built before anyone heard of a GFCI. Never had an issue. I understand it’s better to have them but if I can’t find anyone that knows how to fix it what options do I have?
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Old 10-30-2019, 10:52 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
... which is really a 'third' power bus...
Would you know anything about this setup for a 30A coach? I'm contemplating solar and an inverter but let's tackle inverter here.

Can you share pics or a schematic of how this 3rd bus plays well with others
?

TIA. Hope you're well.
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Old 10-31-2019, 12:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by jannnda View Post
Thanks for your response. Not sure if it answers my question.

I have owned many houses that were built before anyone heard of a GFCI. Never had an issue. I understand it’s better to have them but if I can’t find anyone that knows how to fix it what options do I have?
Your best option is to install a GFCI circuit breaker in the power center and ditch the add-on GFCI in the bathroom for a standard duplex receptacle. Most hair driers draw 13 amps on high. Any other load on that circuit will trip the GFCI, usually a coffee maker, toaster or outside fridge. The answer to that problem is to convert that circuit to 20 amps from the power center to the receptacles. 20 amp GFCI protected duplex receptacles are required in bathroom, kitchens, garages and outside in new residential construction.



Not that you care, but most new residential construction codes require CAFCI for all circuits except for those requiring GFCIs. As of now, the RV industry had not adopted any specific residential electrical codes. When I rewired my coach, I used CAFCI on all circuits and converted the two GFCI protected circuits to 20 amps. The cost was less than $250 for the breakers. I experienced an electrical in my old coach and never want to be awakened again by the smoke alarm at 2 am.
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Old 10-31-2019, 01:30 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
Your best option is to install a GFCI circuit breaker in the power center and ditch the add-on GFCI in the bathroom for a standard duplex receptacle. Most hair driers draw 13 amps on high. Any other load on that circuit will trip the GFCI, usually a coffee maker, toaster or outside fridge. The answer to that problem is to convert that circuit to 20 amps from the power center to the receptacles. 20 amp GFCI protected duplex receptacles are required in bathroom, kitchens, garages and outside in new residential construction.



Not that you care, but most new residential construction codes require CAFCI for all circuits except for those requiring GFCIs. As of now, the RV industry had not adopted any specific residential electrical codes. When I rewired my coach, I used CAFCI on all circuits and converted the two GFCI protected circuits to 20 amps. The cost was less than $250 for the breakers. I experienced an electrical in my old coach and never want to be awakened again by the smoke alarm at 2 am.


Beau388, thanks for that information. I will get a GFCI breaker for the panel that is located under/next to the bed.

Are MH breakers the same as what I would use for my house? If I took it out and went to Lowe’s would they have it? Thanks again.
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:00 AM   #19
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Beau388, thanks for that information. I will get a GFCI breaker for the panel that is located under/next to the bed.

Are MH breakers the same as what I would use for my house? If I took it out and went to Lowe’s would they have it? Thanks again.
:Look in your power center's manual for the exact circuit breaker you need. If it is a WFCO-9555 then Murray MP or MH, Siemens QP or QT, Square D HOM or Eaton BR are some some that will fit. Lowes or Home Depot has them all on the website My Power center is a PPS 4560, so what I have will be slightly different. Before you buy make sure your power center can accommodate the larger GFCI breaker.
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:39 AM   #20
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:Look in your power center's manual for the exact circuit breaker you need. If it is a WFCO-9555 then Murray MP or MH, Siemens QP or QT, Square D HOM or Eaton BR are some some that will fit. Lowes or Home Depot has them all on the website My Power center is a PPS 4560, so what I have will be slightly different. Before you buy make sure your power center can accommodate the larger GFCI breaker.


Thanks for all your help. I will take a look next week and see if I can do this.
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