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Old 06-05-2020, 05:18 AM   #1
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Model: Outlaw 37RB
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Mice, now voltage problems

Have a 2017 Outlaw 37RB with some power issues, hoping someone has suggestions since I am a bit of a newbie. We had a rodent problem over the winter. I had to clear out a mouse nest in one of the outside compartments, and they got inside the cabin too. I did mitigation to clean it up and sealed up several easy entry points with foam (I hadn't realized quite how terrible a job the factory does at this, it was pretty pathetic).

The RV is running 4 x 6V house batteries and a resi fridge that runs off the inverter. Now it has problems keeping the battery voltage up even overnight. When plugged in to shore power, everything works fine, shows 13.8V at the inverter and panel. Same thing when running on the genset. After unplugging, it starts around 12.8V. That seems a bit low. By morning the house battery voltage is fluctuating and dropping below 11V. I assume the fluctuation comes with the sporadic draw of the fridge/freezer running. The inverter starts making a low voltage alarm beep.

I replaced the chassis and all 4 house batteries a couple of months ago. I charged them overnight with an 10A external charger. So I'm assuming the batteries are good, though I only checked with a voltage meter. I tried toggling the store switch and it seems to work correctly. Same with the emergency start switch.

One thing -- running the chassis motor does *not* raise the house voltage. I thought that it should charge the system, but now I can't recall for sure, I never had this issue last year.

It's certainly possible the rodents chewed an important wire somewhere, would that cause a draw like this? That would be frightening, fire hazard. I didn't find anything like that, but there's lots of places you can't see easily. Possibly a bad transfer switch? Is that what controls what charges the batteries on these systems? But I would have thought that would be either good or bad, not marginal. Would love suggestions of where to look next. Next stop is a shop with an electrician.

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Old 06-05-2020, 05:27 AM   #2
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Ha, I just found an old thread from 2018 of my own for a different electrical issue and I mentioned the house was showing 14V when the chassis is running. Mine does not do that now. So that does sound like maybe a hint that something is faulty in the charging or switching system? I don't know enough about the system to go from there.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:02 PM   #3
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Mice...
Perhaps start with the easiest stuff first: look for a damaged ground wire...
Since all of this is happening on the coach side of things: I'd be looking specifically at the wires coming out of the converter first.
Good luck!
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:52 PM   #4
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12.6 VDC at rest with no surface charge is a fully charged lead acid battery.
If you had a poor connection problem to the inverter it would show up as soon as the fridge cycled on - no wait until overnight.
Your symptoms describe a low capacity house battery bank - have the batteries capacity tested.

Your Outlaw most likely uses a BIRD and Trombetta relay to allow the alternator to charge the house batteries and the converter to charge the chassis battery; and isolate the batteries when no charging is taking place. This is a common failure item and the first thing I would check regarding the alternator failing to charge the house batteries.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:57 PM   #5
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Is the battery disconnect switch ON. Inline resetable fuse on?
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Old 06-05-2020, 04:54 PM   #6
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Thanks, good things to look at.


Yes, the battery disconnect switch was on, all the 12V power worked, the capacity just did not last. That does sound like a battery problem, I can't assume "new" batteries are good. The alternator not charging the house batteries could be unrelated (though we also need to find and fix that for sure).


"Inline resetable fuse" -- which fuse location are you referring to, the big inline surface mount breakers in the battery compartment?
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by SharkTank View Post
Thanks, good things to look at.


Yes, the battery disconnect switch was on, all the 12V power worked, the capacity just did not last. That does sound like a battery problem, I can't assume "new" batteries are good. The alternator not charging the house batteries could be unrelated (though we also need to find and fix that for sure).


"Inline resetable fuse" -- which fuse location are you referring to, the big inline surface mount breakers in the battery compartment?
Don't bother looking for the fuse/breaker: if your inverter reads the house battery voltage you're good. And the battery disconnect being open would only prevent your batteries from charging from the converter, your inverter should not be wired through the house battery disconnect latching relay.

And the Trombetta relay is unrelated to your battery capacity problem
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:51 PM   #8
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Makes sense, thanks. These systems are pretty complex (at least to me) so wasn't sure what else might cause this kind of behavior.
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Old 06-05-2020, 06:59 PM   #9
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Any "new to you" system will be complex until you get it figured out. You think motorhomes have complex systems you should see the systems on Nuclear Submarines.

Anyway, there's plenty of experienced people here to help you figure things out. You're doing an above average job of providing symptoms and indications which makes it easier for us to help you figure things out.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:16 PM   #10
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Yeah, it's a learning experience for sure.



Today I finally got a set of schematics from Thor for our coach. After the very generic user manual they give you, I was shocked on the how specific they are! Full CAD drawings of the exact floorplan. Electrical, water system, HVAC, plumbing, propane, pretty much everything in one PDF. I had tried a year ago and got nowhere, but a Thor CSR emailed it to me immediately after giving the VIN.
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Old 06-06-2020, 12:53 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by SharkTank View Post
Yeah, it's a learning experience for sure.



Today I finally got a set of schematics from Thor for our coach. After the very generic user manual they give you, I was shocked on the how specific they are! Full CAD drawings of the exact floorplan. Electrical, water system, HVAC, plumbing, propane, pretty much everything in one PDF. I had tried a year ago and got nowhere, but a Thor CSR emailed it to me immediately after giving the VIN.
Well that diagram says you have a BIM instead of a BIRD and Trombetta so the BIM is what you need to troubleshoot regarding the charging house batteries from the alternator.
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Old 06-06-2020, 01:40 AM   #12
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Yeah, looks that way. Our RV is stored off-site -- I'll need to go look at it. The "ISO relay" that I'm to looking for this?

http://precisioncircuitsinc.com/prod...ion-manager-2/

Perhaps the relay has failed. What's the proper test methodology for one of these? I can measure the voltage across the ground, chassis, and coach posts on the current unit, but I'm not 100% certain on the correct behavior state. Is this the expected results of a voltmeter on a functional BIM?
  • Measuring ground to Chassis battery (constant): 13+V
  • Measuring ground to Coach battery (when chassis ignition off): 0V
  • Measuring ground to Coach battery (when chassis ignition on): 13+V
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Old 06-06-2020, 10:56 AM   #13
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Oops no, I realized measuring BIM posts would be like this if still connected
  • Measuring ground to Chassis battery (engine off): 12.6V
  • Measuring ground to Coach battery (engine off): 12.6V
  • Measuring ground to Chassis battery (engine on): 13.8V
  • Measuring ground to Coach battery (engine on): 13.8V
And if it's failed, the ground to coach battery would stay unchanged when chassis is running? Then check to see if it's getting a signal voltage from the chassis.
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Old 06-07-2020, 04:26 PM   #14
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I did some measurements on the BIM and now I'm a little uncertain what to make of it. The BIM has an A and B posts that go to coach and chassis batteries. Here's what I measured:
  • On shore power, 13.6V on both battery posts.
  • After unplugging, 13V on both battery posts, dropping down to 12.4V after a few min. 1.4V on the "SIG" post. 0V on the the "IGN" post.
  • Start the chassis motor, and it stays at 12.4V for both battery posts. 1.4V on the "SIG" post. 14.2V on the "IGN" post.
I assume SIG is for the emerg start switch. It looks like the IGN wire was carrying 14V is coming from the alternator when it was running. So that's working. But the BIM not showing the same 14V voltage on either battery post. Just writing this out makes me think, maybe mis-wired on the chassis battery side? I can go check that.


I also left the coach disconnected from shore power overnight to see what state the batteries are in when I check it later today. That's an entirely different issue.
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Old 06-10-2020, 05:14 PM   #15
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For anyone ever having a similar problem, I think I got this solved. I was checking all the battery connections and I noticed that the cable ends still had a lot of the red corrosion protection that gets sprayed on by the factory. I took off all the cables at the house and chassis batteries, cleaned them really well with a wire brush, reconnected them solidly, and sprayed protectant. That seems to have done the trick. The alternator is now charging the house batteries and it went over 24 hours on the house batteries a kept a decent voltage. There must have been enough resistance in the cables that the BIM would not send the alternator current to charge the house batteries. The mice problem seems to have been a red herring.
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Old 06-10-2020, 06:29 PM   #16
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I have a 2016 37RB. I'm *still* mouse proofing it. Somehow they are getting into the storage compartment under the bed. They have to be jumping over the back wall of the bed storage area - and once they do that, they are trapped ..for life..

I believe the 2017 and 2016 have the same fridge. My stock house batteries would drop to 11.9 over a single night. Then I noticed that the fridge defrost mode was drawing so much current that it tripped an internal breaker and was trying again every 50 minutes. But, when running on shore power, the fridge makes it though the defrost cycle and resets the timer for another 20 hours... not sure why it's not 24 hours
I wish I could figure out how to tell that fridge WHEN to run a defrost cycle..
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Old 06-10-2020, 07:46 PM   #17
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I had a similar power issue and Thor replaced and upgraded my inverter and I added some solar and it has made a huge difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkTank View Post
Have a 2017 Outlaw 37RB with some power issues, hoping someone has suggestions since I am a bit of a newbie. We had a rodent problem over the winter. I had to clear out a mouse nest in one of the outside compartments, and they got inside the cabin too. I did mitigation to clean it up and sealed up several easy entry points with foam (I hadn't realized quite how terrible a job the factory does at this, it was pretty pathetic).

The RV is running 4 x 6V house batteries and a resi fridge that runs off the inverter. Now it has problems keeping the battery voltage up even overnight. When plugged in to shore power, everything works fine, shows 13.8V at the inverter and panel. Same thing when running on the genset. After unplugging, it starts around 12.8V. That seems a bit low. By morning the house battery voltage is fluctuating and dropping below 11V. I assume the fluctuation comes with the sporadic draw of the fridge/freezer running. The inverter starts making a low voltage alarm beep.

I replaced the chassis and all 4 house batteries a couple of months ago. I charged them overnight with an 10A external charger. So I'm assuming the batteries are good, though I only checked with a voltage meter. I tried toggling the store switch and it seems to work correctly. Same with the emergency start switch.

One thing -- running the chassis motor does *not* raise the house voltage. I thought that it should charge the system, but now I can't recall for sure, I never had this issue last year.

It's certainly possible the rodents chewed an important wire somewhere, would that cause a draw like this? That would be frightening, fire hazard. I didn't find anything like that, but there's lots of places you can't see easily. Possibly a bad transfer switch? Is that what controls what charges the batteries on these systems? But I would have thought that would be either good or bad, not marginal. Would love suggestions of where to look next. Next stop is a shop with an electrician.
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:05 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by lmichel View Post
I have a 2016 37RB. I'm *still* mouse proofing it. Somehow they are getting into the storage compartment under the bed. They have to be jumping over the back wall of the bed storage area - and once they do that, they are trapped ..for life..
I feel your pain. I am now leaving a "rolling log" style bucket trap inside the RV whenever it is left for storage. I caught several mice that way and (I think) it's now clear.

After exclusion, my ongoing strategy is to systematically find all the entrance points and block them to make access into the compartments and cabin much more difficult. I spent a fair amount of time crawling underneath the chassis and in all the compartments looking for openings, especially where cables are routed. I sprayed expanding foam on spots that Thor missed. There were lots. The battery and water compartments were really obvious ones. Next to the water tank there is an open heating duct, I assume that's for keeping the water tank from freezing. The battery compartment is open to air by necessity, but the exits to the adjoining compartments need to be sealed. The storage area under the bed has a huge hole in the floor directly to the outside, behind the electrical panels next to the converter. That can be covered with wire mesh.
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:07 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dadsbum View Post
I had a similar power issue and Thor replaced and upgraded my inverter and I added some solar and it has made a huge difference.

Thanks, I was wondering if I might need to do that. What year and model, and what inverter was the replacement?
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