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Old 01-19-2023, 04:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Frank@theShop View Post
Not all dealers accept defective products. It is well within a dealership's right to refuse a unit that they feel has too many defects to repair in a reasonable amount of time. It is not in the dealers interest to accept a unit that will be "unsellable" and "waiting on parts" for months. In the RV industry, what a unit is worth at this time, is NOT what it will be worth 6 months from now. 6 months is roughly equal to 4-7% is retail value. Well managed dealerships are aware of this and refuse a unit they do not think they will be able to sellable within weeks, if not days. Oh, and defects are usually marked in blue tape, not red. Sometimes yellow.
Are you aware of a dealer sending back a defective RV to the builder? I suspect not. At best the two will agree on a discount.

But in most cases, even with significant defects, the dealer will suck it up, fix the problems over time, and then use that experience in negotiating his deal with the builder when it is time to renew.

David

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Old 01-19-2023, 05:09 PM   #22
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I think the manufacturing problem may be piecework. They pay these people a crappy base wage then a bonus based on how many units out the door per shift.
Back in the early 70's I worked in a plant that made parts for Chrysler. We made minimum wage and bonus based on how many pieces we got out the door. After I moved on, I was told they finally started paying the workers a decent wage and got rid of the bonus system due to many parts rejected by Chrysler.
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Old 01-19-2023, 06:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DavidEM View Post
Are you aware of a dealer sending back a defective RV to the builder? I suspect not. At best the two will agree on a discount.

But in most cases, even with significant defects, the dealer will suck it up, fix the problems over time, and then use that experience in negotiating his deal with the builder when it is time to renew.

David
I am very aware of dealers declining defective units. I have done it. I work at a Thor dealer. At one time I was the one that checked the new units in. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. The most recent example we tried to decline, Thor asked that we accept it and they sent a team of factory techs to repair it at our facility. It is financially reckless for a dealership to accept a unit that needs so many repairs that it will not be ready to sell for months. By the time it is ready, it will be worth less as next years models will be getting ready to come out. What typically doesn't happen David is "the two will agree on a discount". Do some dealers accept RVs they should have declined? Absolutely. As I said previously, better managed dealerships are careful with things like that.
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Old 01-19-2023, 06:55 PM   #24
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In my lifetime there has been at least 100 companies come and go trying to make it in the RV industry. We had several plants in the Midwest, not Indiana, that all were in place years ago. Hitchhiker was one that had a huge plant.

They all probably think they can overcome the problems and issues they see and hear about.

All of them are long gone and you still see relics that are abandoned and a few still used.

Tough business and Thor is the winner big time in the industry. Pretty amazing when you look at the history and the current situation as well.
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Old 01-19-2023, 09:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Frank@theShop View Post
Not all dealers accept defective products. It is well within a dealership's right to refuse a unit that they feel has too many defects to repair in a reasonable amount of time. It is not in the dealers interest to accept a unit that will be "unsellable" and "waiting on parts" for months. In the RV industry, what a unit is worth at this time, is NOT what it will be worth 6 months from now. 6 months is roughly equal to 4-7% is retail value. Well managed dealerships are aware of this and refuse a unit they do not think they will be able to sellable within weeks, if not days. Oh, and defects are usually marked in blue tape, not red. Sometimes yellow.
You sound like you work for a dealer. I toured the factory a while back and saw the tape process in QC. "RED TAPE" ain't a good thing and it is what they used on the units I looked at...it was quite obvious it was marking broken items. I was AT the dealership I spoke of and they told me exactly what I quoted. It isn't theory or opinion. What is your theory for all the red tape I saw?
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Old 01-19-2023, 09:09 PM   #26
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Here's the other piece of the vicious circle.
While a dealership's techs are busy fixing the s**t work on the RV's delivered from the factory they have no time to do the actual warranty work required on the rigs the dealership has sold.
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Old 01-20-2023, 12:06 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Frank@theShop View Post
I am very aware of dealers declining defective units. I have done it. I work at a Thor dealer. At one time I was the one that checked the new units in. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. The most recent example we tried to decline, Thor asked that we accept it and they sent a team of factory techs to repair it at our facility. It is financially reckless for a dealership to accept a unit that needs so many repairs that it will not be ready to sell for months. By the time it is ready, it will be worth less as next years models will be getting ready to come out. What typically doesn't happen David is "the two will agree on a discount". Do some dealers accept RVs they should have declined? Absolutely. As I said previously, better managed dealerships are careful with things like that.
I am curious to hear how the process works where Dealer decline any ordered RV? Specifically when? (meaning where was the RV when it was declined and for what reasons?)

My theory and please inject where I may be wrong because I do not know, but hey I can jump in to stir the pot.

1. Dealer Orders RV and pays for it.
2. RV Mfg say it is ready; so Dealer schedules pick up
3. Dealer sends a Driver to pick up RV and the drive may be hundreds maybe 1,000s of miles.
4. The Driver does QC, and signs off. Unless it is missing engine or tires; what motivation will driver have to return empty handed?
5. I doubt major damage or issues are ever found anyway, what is found is part of the make ready where it is 1st received on Dealers lot and a thorough inspection is supposed to performed
6. Dealer either fixes or not
7. I say most dealers do not fix everything preferring to see if the buyer will notice or say anything.
8. Dealers make money because buyers buy what others may call crap. The ones that complain the loudest usually have been hoodwinked by the Dealer whom they trusted and assume could do no wrong.

Saying Thor is poor Quality Mfg is like saying, Wal Mart is lousy dept store. Yup you can find a few things wrong, but you don't become #1 because all you do is make junk. TMC is guilty of same thing that Wal Mart is, trying to provide the best affordable product for the masses. But perhaps worse than Wal Mart because their sales model assumes a Thor Dealer Network to ensure customers get a good working product. Some dealers do and other do not.
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Old 01-20-2023, 12:23 AM   #28
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You sound like you work for a dealer. I toured the factory a while back and saw the tape process in QC. "RED TAPE" ain't a good thing and it is what they used on the units I looked at...it was quite obvious it was marking broken items. I was AT the dealership I spoke of and they told me exactly what I quoted. It isn't theory or opinion. What is your theory for all the red tape I saw?
He said he works at a dealer.
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Old 01-20-2023, 12:27 AM   #29
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I think the manufacturing problem may be piecework. They pay these people a crappy base wage then a bonus based on how many units out the door per shift.
Back in the early 70's I worked in a plant that made parts for Chrysler. We made minimum wage and bonus based on how many pieces we got out the door. After I moved on, I was told they finally started paying the workers a decent wage and got rid of the bonus system due to many parts rejected by Chrysler.
What makes you think higher pay will result in a better product? Look at state and federal government employees. Highly paid with good benefits and produce nothing but junk in the way of service, provided you can talk to someone.

Higher wages does not equal increased quality.
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Old 01-20-2023, 01:37 AM   #30
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After hearing these stories, glad we have a pre-covid Thor. Seems to be a big difference in quality control since my 2020 was built (in 2019).
Same here 2020 built 2019.
25,000 happy miles.
Fingers crossed 🤞
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Old 01-20-2023, 03:17 PM   #31
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When we picked up ours, there were 2 Motorhomes next to ours that looked 1/2 disassembled. Dealer said it was the Thor Factory team doing the work.


I wished I knew enough to ask more questions.
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Old 01-20-2023, 03:56 PM   #32
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At one of the Dealers, they (The Sales guy) actually called the Thor Account Manager and let me talked with them on the phone about the items I had identified that Dealer was saying they could not fix. For every line item I had; Thor said it was a Dealer issue. Even for a newbie it was common sense what TMC was saying and it made sense. The Sales guy was livid because Dealer's management (his bosses) would not budge. The Dealer's attitude was if I don't buy someone else will and the Dealer was right. Both RVs were sold, and I am sure they did not fix those items. I always wonder if the person that bought the RVs ever came to this site and just took TMC to task for poor quality?

I spoke with TMC a lot, and NEVER had a bad experience with them. Their Customer Service was polite and always tried to help me. Maybe once you buy they turn into Satan; but I don't think so. I think TMC does what they say. If I am wrong, I was just blessed to have dealt with crappy Thor Dealers to never find out.
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Old 01-20-2023, 05:19 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
At one of the Dealers, they (The Sales guy) actually called the Thor Account Manager and let me talked with them on the phone about the items I had identified that Dealer was saying they could not fix. For every line item I had; Thor said it was a Dealer issue. Even for a newbie it was common sense what TMC was saying and it made sense. The Sales guy was livid because Dealer's management (his bosses) would not budge. The Dealer's attitude was if I don't buy someone else will and the Dealer was right. Both RVs were sold, and I am sure they did not fix those items. I always wonder if the person that bought the RVs ever came to this site and just took TMC to task for poor quality?

I spoke with TMC a lot, and NEVER had a bad experience with them. Their Customer Service was polite and always tried to help me. Maybe once you buy they turn into Satan; but I don't think so. I think TMC does what they say. If I am wrong, I was just blessed to have dealt with crappy Thor Dealers to never find out.

I totally agree with this statement. My experience with Thor has always been stellar and my initial warranty fix hit list at the factory service center in 2019 was a great experience. What I saw recently and what most are experiencing is the fallout on the assembly process. They use inferior fasteners, they don't control the torque and tons of screws and staples get driven in so hard they route out the base seat or get shot through the material. Too large of fasteners are used in too soft of a wood base causing splits (no pre-drilling). They see and know this but no one stops to correct it. It's all covered up as production numbers just don't allow it. The unit sits on a static floor looking great...until it hits a bump...after purchase. Everything I recently witnessed on the units at this dealership is directly related to the hap-hazard assembly rush...not the engineering or design. I've always been an advocate of Thor...not a blaster. BUT...what I saw this week really hit my heart hard for all those who have serious issues with little to no avenue for help. I asked the salesgirl...if I purchase this, will y'all fix these things today before we do papers. She said..."we will try" but our shop is two months out and we are way short on technicians. You can leave it with us or bring it back later "and we'll be glad to fix it". Of course, I knew the answer before I asked the question. They will not perform the PDI and walk-through until after the customer signs all the papers. They wanted a $5,000 deposit immediately...even though it was going to be a cash deal in a few minutes at same day closing. You think they know something??
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Old 01-20-2023, 05:37 PM   #34
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I totally agree with this statement. My experience with Thor has always been stellar and my initial warranty fix hit list at the factory service center in 2019 was a great experience. What I saw recently and what most are experiencing is the fallout on the assembly process. They use inferior fasteners, they don't control the torque and tons of screws and staples get driven in so hard they route out the base seat or get shot through the material. Too large of fasteners are used in too soft of a wood base causing splits (no pre-drilling). They see and know this but no one stops to correct it. It's all covered up as production numbers just don't allow it. The unit sits on a static floor looking great...until it hits a bump...after purchase. Everything I recently witnessed on the units at this dealership is directly related to the hap-hazard assembly rush...not the engineering or design. I've always been an advocate of Thor...not a blaster. BUT...what I saw this week really hit my heart hard for all those who have serious issues with little to no avenue for help. I asked the salesgirl...if I purchase this, will y'all fix these things today before we do papers. She said..."we will try" but our shop is two months out and we are way short on technicians. You can leave it with us or bring it back later "and we'll be glad to fix it". Of course, I knew the answer before I asked the question. They will not perform the PDI and walk-through until after the customer signs all the papers. They wanted a $5,000 deposit immediately...even though it was going to be a cash deal in a few minutes at same day closing. You think they know something??
Sounds like the dealer (and Thor) are making a great case to keep your old RV. That's our plan. Besides, who wants to start all over modifying a new RV to fit your needs when the old one has already been upgraded?

Our class A is not huge, but the time for car camping in hatchbacks and camping in converted vans (both of which I did when younger, as well as truck camping with a topper) is behind us.

The dealer is probably just as happy to see you head down the road: the last thing they want is an educated customer.
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Old 01-20-2023, 05:47 PM   #35
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When Thor, who has 45% of the RV market, and Forest River, who has 40% of the RV market, purchases another RV manufacture, the quality has always sunk. It may take a year or two, but cost cutting for the bottom line of the corporate owner is the bottom line. Thor corporation and Berkshire Hathaway have the 95% of the market. So now it is what it is.
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Old 01-20-2023, 06:11 PM   #36
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Sounds like the dealer (and Thor) are making a great case to keep your old RV. That's our plan. Besides, who wants to start all over modifying a new RV to fit your needs when the old one has already been upgraded?

Our class A is not huge, but the time for car camping in hatchbacks and camping in converted vans (both of which I did when younger, as well as truck camping with a topper) is behind us.

We actually made a deal with RV One in Jacksonville for a "no-slide" JAYCO Melbourne Prestige 24NP with the diesel generator option. Huge rear lounge area and seems to be built pretty solid. Lots of features will make setup and breakdown so much easier. We can also use it more as a day cruiser around home and while on the road from campgrounds. Best of all...as we head out west in a couple months...my calculations show I will gain 110+ more miles per day on the same daily amount of fuel we normally use in the Chateau. As we unload ours now, I was amazed at how much stuff we had packed into it...and never used...and we thought we were packing light already. My experience with RV One has been excellent. It's nice to be treated and respected as a customer. Their reviews are very good as well. They do have a service priority system for their own customers that will eliminate having to wait for service and they have a lot of locations around the country. Heading over Sunday night for a Monday delivery. It's buying season!! This will be a huge adjustment for us where size and space is concerned but we've been talking this out for quite some time and we are ready. Excited about the Mercedes chassis. They build them on the "premium" chassis package with all the features we have in the Cadillac. And...I can stand straight up from the drivers seat and not have to crawl back.


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Old 01-21-2023, 08:09 PM   #37
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This is not labour problem, but management problem. It is actually mismanagement. They have no QA (quality assurance), or management ignores their findings. Thay have no standardization so they cannot puzzle majority parts easily together. There is very poor supervision letting people on the floor do their tasks by their own way and experience…..

It must cost them fortune to deal with all those warranty defects. Poor customers spending fortunes of after tax money to spend months of dealing with the warranty work. It is stressful holiday in constant worry that something will happen in the second and following years when warranty is over. There is practically no one to fix those fancy and complicated rigs. Shame on them. It is embarassement.
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Old 01-21-2023, 08:24 PM   #38
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Ahhh, but when you and the dealer resolve all of the issues you then have a coach as nice as the 15 yr old one was when it was new. Well not quite but maybe close.
Yes. I think that is the flip side of the coin.

We bought our current RV used, and since I had spoke with the previous owner and since he had been moderately honest with me, I knew the RV had issues. I bought one of the Good Sam ESP plans for the first year and then just went on to fix what I could and have fixed what I could not fix myself. Now I have an RV that seems to have its issues taken care of, and I saved a bunch of money because it was used when we got it.
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Old 01-21-2023, 08:26 PM   #39
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My biggest concern of recent is what you said at the end...no service available anywhere anymore...let alone poor service. The Super C is one complicated mass of moving parts that you can't get to. We're heading out west soon...last thing I wanna do is get stuck in the desert with a failed slide or captive structural issue...(front cap). Plus...4 years later to present...its time for big preventative maintenance. Tires, roof sealing, slide topper and awning replacement, lots of plastics up top baking in the sun for 4 years...a lot of things I would have done soon. Totals around $10K. Thus, trade. It cost me $4,000 to own this for 4 years and we bought the new one at 27% off MSRP.
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Old 01-21-2023, 09:01 PM   #40
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We own a 2022 Thor Tiburon FB and we are happy. Have a little over 13,000 miles on it.
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