Why do we accept this? New 2020 Venetian L40

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by lwmcguire

I am sure most of you have seen the younger work force and no not including everyone in that group

We don't have a lot of workers with good skill sets available

As an investor with some investments being in the RV industry I often read the annual reports for RV manufacturers. One of the greatest challenges to firms such as Thor Industries is finding and retaining skilled labor and retaining unskilled labor after they have been trained.

Elkhart County Indiana has the largest concentration of RV manufacturers in the country and there is a tremendous demand for labor with the RV component suppliers and RV manufacturers all competing for a limited pool of skilled personnel. All too often once an individual is trained and gains experience at a firm like Thor they leave and go to another firm such as Newmar or Winnebago for a dollar an hour more or leave altogether to become an independent RV technician.

The issue of a skilled labor shortage is industry wide which impacts suppliers, manufacturers and dealers.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

As an investor with some investments being in the RV industry I often read the annual reports for RV manufacturers. One of the greatest challenges to firms such as Thor Industries is finding and retaining skilled labor and retaining unskilled labor after they have been trained.

Elkhart County Indiana has the largest concentration of RV manufacturers in the country and there is a tremendous demand for labor with the RV component suppliers and RV manufacturers all competing for a limited pool of skilled personnel. All too often once an individual is trained and gains experience at a firm like Thor they leave and go to another firm such as Newmar or Winnebago for a dollar an hour more or leave altogether to become an independent RV technician.

The issue of a skilled labor shortage is industry wide which impacts suppliers, manufacturers and dealers.

Exactly, I have run several manufacturing organizations; some with union presence or similar. Sometimes hands are tied, in that you can't just readily pay one assembly employee more because of the fact that their skills, output, and quality is greater than another. I have seen very good employees leave for .25 cent more and hour (20 years ago; so do some adjustments if you will) But that is not a fault of employee. It is problem we could never fix. Unions can be strong with good intentions, but adverse impacts, you don't want to just pick up and move to another area (actually we did move some facilities to Mexico).

I think the shortest path for RV industry to fix itself is to transform their entire business model. More accountability is needed at door when RVs are being carted off to the Dealers. The entire selling process with MSRP being 20 - 40 % over actual sells price is a factor. It is a hot mess. From problems I read mostly on this site from Thor, most of the issues will NOT be fixed even if Thor had the best RV labors in the world. Sure it helps to have better, but in my view it is simplistic to the industry's root cause problem.

i.e, From what I read on this site; a lot of problems are with windshields, levelers, batteries, use/store switches converters being defective, cheap upholstery, cheap radios, cheap TVs, AC units not cooling enough, defective generators, stabilizers, rough rides, even defective engines etc. etc. I don't know that better skilled Thor employees fix those concerns. It is more of designs for manufacture, producibility, procurement, vendor quality management and Thor's commitment to a true company wide Quality Program.

[Bob Denman]

A bidet from a baby elephant skull?
Dude... I want to know where you shop!!

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

A bidet from a baby elephant skull?
Dude... I want to know where you shop!!

I took that post down.
It might have been hurtful.


I'll synopsize:

Some people aren't happy unless they aren't happy.
An rv must be like Christmas morning to those folks.
And then they tell us about it. Every... Little... Sawdust behind the panel under the microwave... Detail.

[Bob Denman]

folks don't grow "tough feelings" anymore...
You always have to be so careful about bruising them.
They're more sensitive than a ripe pear!

[16Pal36.3]

I hope you have a better experience with Thor than I did when I bought a new end of model year Thor Palazzo 36.2 in 2016 from a dealer 600+ miles away. Even with a pretty careful PDI I still started discovering problems 200 miles down the road. Deep down it is a good Freight liner chassis and exactly the floor plan we wanted. I wound up fixing most of the problems myself as their warrantee support network is very weak in my area. I actually discovered the last defect about a year ago when the residential refrigerator tipped into the aisle when I hit a bump on the right side only. The double sided tape was not adhered to the top of the refrigerator. I called tech support and verified how to fix it, and did it. It won't move now.

You didn't even have a chance to do a PDI.

[sandiegobrass]

Originally Posted by Carrollco

You are correct. The dealer sucks. The industry is as sleazy as they come.

...

Politics aside Covid is not something we are willing to risk

...

All I want is the coach to be properly repaired and safe to drive down the road. Is that asking to much?

Thank you for sharing your story!! My wife and I are both among the COVID vulnerable.

My experience is similar in that for COVID reasons I purchased a Thor product for the express purpose of getting 2000 miles across country to visit my 100 year old mother so as to have minimal and controllable interaction with people. So far, 4 weeks after delivery, not ready.

I purchased remotely, had a virtual walk down/inspection, had it delivered.

To tell the whole story would be a hijack of your thread, so let me just say that my 42 year old Southwind (1978) that I decided was too old to make the 2000 mile trip has fewer problems than the 2020 “new” coach.

If someone was interested, I’d share the whole story. (another thread), otherwise be aware I have walked in your shoes and share the misery.

I can re-engineer or fix anything; that has been my 57 year career, but why should I? My 6th and 7th grade grandchildren have better workmanship (e.g. science projects) than some of these problem issues.

I can say that Thor factory customer service, so far, has been very approachable and responsive. My guess is that they are moving in the right direction.

Jim (SDB)

[gibbyid]

I understand, I sold rv's years ago and know what to do and they still got me. I retired from sales. This is part of there marketing ploy, we do not expect to buy something that is broke our minds say it will be ok and it's late and Mom is ready to go an we do not want to explain to here why we are buying some thing that is broke.
The salesman says we will take care of it our brains thank it is like our car we bring it in tomorrow they will fix it and be on our way.
dealers know we don't do this every day and use it for there benefit

[ducksface]

It's a kit.
Entry level rv's are kits.
Rv's on the low end are kits.
You buy BASIC labor
You buy BASIC build.
They Lended you a toilet until you can buy the macerator bidet you want. In the meantime they did not charge me $6,000(yup) for the macerator toilet I DID NOT WANT.


I ask every time someone complains and no one has the gumption to answer.

Would you have paid $20,000 more for the same unit if it didn't have sawdust behind the access panel to the fridge(or whatever is wrong)?

Would you pay it?

[sandiegobrass]

Originally Posted by ducksface

It's a kit.
Entry level rv's are kits.
Rv's on the low end are kits.
You buy BASIC labor
You buy BASIC build.
They Lended you a toilet until you can buy the macerator bidet you want. In the meantime they did not charge me $6,000(yup) for the macerator toilet I DID NOT WANT.


I ask every time someone complains and no one has the gumption to answer.

Would you have paid $20,000 more for the same unit if it didn't have sawdust behind the access panel to the fridge(or whatever is wrong)?

Would you pay it?

Yes I would and yes I will, if I can find it... and more than $20,000 more.. probably in a much higher end coach "well shaken".. a couple years old... and after I get this one "shaken" to the point I can use it and sell it with a straight face... (now that I've been properly schooled in "low end" RVs.)

I get your point, and you are correct, it is a "kit"... I'm a pilot and a plane builder.. but when I bought an airplane "kit", it was sold as a "kit", not a completed flying airplane... and they lied about how long it would take, too.. and years later when that "kit" hasn't been completed, I bought a flying airplane... I wanted to fly, ... That is the misrepresentation (I wanted to say fraud) in my mind. they don't tell you it is only 99% complete (or what ever) .. and that it was put together by those that, if skilled, weren't demonstrating it.

Give you another example.. I just spent half the day, R&R-ing the entry step installation. It was installed crooked and all "wonky".. like a spring board... They had drilled the mounting holes in the wrong place, only three of the four holes could accept bolts.. one of the "elevator" bolts was sticking up 3/8" under the tread... and instead of re drilling the holes and doing it correctly, they attached the loose corner with a half dozen self drilling lag screws... Okay, call it a "kit", but don't put it together wrong... throw it in a bag and let someone do it right..

[sandiegobrass]

A problem with your solution is that the OP and I purchased for specific COVID related missions. Not sure he did a PDI; mine was virtual (and worthless). I don’t think adding any $$$ could have made the outcome any different.

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by sandiegobrass

A problem with your solution is that the OP and I purchased for specific COVID related missions. Not sure he did a PDI; mine was virtual (and worthless). I don’t think adding any $$$ could have made the outcome any different.

Your virtual pdi instead of hiring someone to be your stand-in is not understandable.

Having faith in any vehicle related sales team goes against not just American cultural teachings but perhaps world culture.

I'm not saying they can't be trusted.
I'm saying expecting them to not be diligent is as ingrained in our society as Christmas and bears/woods.

I hope everyone takes your story to heed and never considers something like a virtual pdi.
$500 would have hired a personal advocate to stand in your stead.


Yours is a valuable story.
Not about Thor quality but about what shouldn't be done during a purchase.

Thanks for the post.
Hopefully you've made someone considering a virtual pdi to think in a more rational direction instead of taking that path.

[twovillagers]

I have had minimal issues with the 2019 Thor Vegas 24.1 we bought 10 months ago. Most were repaired by me and I had good support from the dealer on a couple of others. There are a couple of minor things that I'll just overlook. I feel we got a good deal on a leftover 2019 and most of my cost and work has been upgrades to an entry level RV. Honestly, if someone is not reasonably handy and not willing to thoroughly learn their RV, they should not buy one considering the quality level of the industry..

I don't really view my RV as something that will have much value in 5-7 years. We will mentally write it off as the cost of vacations and sell it for what we can get at the end of its use. I'll continue to enjoy the RV we own, but would not buy another or trade up!

My question is WHY should a buyer have to do a comprehensive PDI?? I'm not going to be critical of the OP for not being an RV inspection expert and not spending hours going over the build issues. It is the manufacturer's responsibility to do the PDI, and secondly, the dealer. The OP had a right to expect perfection in a coach with a $400,000 MSRP. He was not buying a "starter kit" or entry level RV. He spent big money!! By comparison, I own a 5 year old Mercedes. it was flawless when it was delivered and has NEVER had a factory defect. I would strongly argue this buyer should have received at least general automotive quality.

It's going to get worse, not better. The Chinese Virus crisis has created mega-demand and there is little incentive for the RV industry to improve. I certainly would not want to buy any of the RV's built in the last six months.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by twovillagers

My question is WHY should a buyer have to do a comprehensive PDI??

For the same reason you don't close on a home purchase until you complete the walkthrough.

The fact that some people (mostly newbies) continue to buy sight unseen or without a comprehensive PDI, does not help the case of bringing accountability to Mfg and Dealers. For the coaches that do fail multiple PDIs, and thus do not sale; all the dealer do is keep reducing the price until someone buys.

At some point you can buy so low; that fixing some of the items or the frustrations can be worth it.

[dkoldman]

QUOTE Duckface

Would you have paid $20,000 more for the same unit if it didn't have sawdust behind the access panel to the fridge(or whatever is wrong)?

Would you pay it?

Originally Posted by sandiegobrass

Yes I would and yes I will, if I can find it... and more than $20,000 more..

I will take a $20,000 check from ANY new Thor buyer and personally guarantee that their coach will have no problems out of the gate. (Must be contracted with me before the purchased and grant me power of authority over PDI documents). I will promise to ensure there are no Thor workmanship issues Should there be ANY Thor Mfg defects, I will guarantee that is it repaired under warranty at 100%.

Any Dealer or Customer damage not included, and all OEM mfgs warranty revert to OEM warranties. (i.e. batteries going bad is not a Thor mfg defect, broken cabinet doors, rust, missing keys, fobs, parts etc. are things that happen on the Dealer lot, but with proper time to review for such defects/ failures they to can be resolved within the 1st year.

PM me for payment information
Note: Service is offered nationwide in the Continental US

[ducksface]

I think we should take the post above and make it a standard response to those who sah
'I paid so much...'

Punchline is:
No, you didn't.
You paid the least, for the least.

Any one of them could have bought 20 hours worth of labor from the dealer to have the walls torn into and screws replaced and swarf flushed from pipes.
$3,200 to erase all Thor things they should have known of in advance..fixed as a condition of contract.

AND THEY DIDN'T SPEND THE TWO PERCENT(A LOUSY TWO PERCENT) OF MSRP TO BE FLAWLESS.
but
Had the dealer done it in advance and added $3,200 they'd be here
screaming like a smashed cat
due to unfair dealer mark-up.

Some people aren't happy unless they aren't happy.

Spend two percent. Whatever discount they offer you, spend two percent.
We go in and beat them to (hopefully) their bottom dollar, and expect the world.
Pay msrp and see how your appointments and work is accelerated.

[twovillagers]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

For the same reason you don't close on a home purchase until you complete the walkthrough.

The fact that some people (mostly newbies) continue to buy sight unseen or without a comprehensive PDI, does not help the case of bringing accountability to Mfg and Dealers. For the coaches that do fail multiple PDIs, and thus do not sale; all the dealer do is keep reducing the price until someone buys.

At some point you can buy so low; that fixing some of the items or the frustrations can be worth it.

I'm not disputing the NEED to do a PDI and you are correct that it helps bring accountability to the dealers and manufacturers.
What I'm attempting to point out is that shifting the burden and cost of quality inspections to the buyer on a brand new RV is never justifiable.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

For the same reason you don't close on a home purchase until you complete the walkthrough.

The fact that some people (mostly newbies) continue to buy sight unseen or without a comprehensive PDI, does not help the case of bringing accountability to Mfg and Dealers. For the coaches that do fail multiple PDIs, and thus do not sale; all the dealer do is keep reducing the price until someone buys.

At some point you can buy so low; that fixing some of the items or the frustrations can be worth it.

Most dealers will just let the unit sit until a rookie gives them the asking price without an inspection or test drive. Might take one or two additional weeks of inventory time but they might even get more in the long run.

A knowledgeable buyer is a hassle to deal with for some dealers and they prefer you leave so they can get back to business their way.

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by twovillagers

...
What I'm attempting to point out is that shifting the burden and cost of quality inspections to the buyer on a brand new RV is never justifiable.

Many here have admitted their point of failure, wearing it as some badge of honor by essentially saying:
'I spent more time examining for bruises, the nine apples I bought than I spent time inspecting my $200,000 motorhome.'

We read it here three times a week.

The Mercedes comparison?
Yeh, that missing sunroof you didn't buy saved you a flabberghasting $4,200.
Believe me, Mercedes did the dead minimum they could get away with then charged you for niceties. Should the stove in a Thor be a 1,000% marked up option?

When Mercedes were hand-built and they installed the old style toilets in them, they were about the quality of a Chrysler k car.

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by twovillagers

I have had minimal issues with the 2019 Thor Vegas 24.1 we bought 10 months ago. Most were repaired by me and I had good support from the dealer on a couple of others. There are a couple of minor things that I'll just overlook. I feel we got a good deal on a leftover 2019 and most of my cost and work has been upgrades to an entry level RV. Honestly, if someone is not reasonably handy and not willing to thoroughly learn their RV, they should not buy one considering the quality level of the industry..

I don't really view my RV as something that will have much value in 5-7 years. We will mentally write it off as the cost of vacations and sell it for what we can get at the end of its use. I'll continue to enjoy the RV we own, but would not buy another or trade up!

My question is WHY should a buyer have to do a comprehensive PDI?? I'm not going to be critical of the OP for not being an RV inspection expert and not spending hours going over the build issues. It is the manufacturer's responsibility to do the PDI, and secondly, the dealer. The OP had a right to expect perfection in a coach with a $400,000 MSRP. He was not buying a "starter kit" or entry level RV. He spent big money!! By comparison, I own a 5 year old Mercedes. it was flawless when it was delivered and has NEVER had a factory defect. I would strongly argue this buyer should have received at least general automotive quality.

It's going to get worse, not better. The Chinese Virus crisis has created mega-demand and there is little incentive for the RV industry to improve. I certainly would not want to buy any of the RV's built in the last six months.

Would that it were so. But comparing any Thor to a Mercedes is pretty flawed. The car is a high end product and the coach is entry level. Yugo to BMW perhaps. You can buy a “road bicycle” at Walmart for $300 or you can buy a mid line Trek for $3500 and it’s not fair to compare them on quality or performance. Just because it’s expensive doesn’t mean it’s high end. Not condoning shoddy work just telling it like it is.