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Old 03-12-2022, 03:19 PM   #1
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Batteries and Green Power Article

(I did not write this, a friend shared it with me)
What is a battery?' I think Tesla said it best when they called it an Energy Storage System. That's important.
They do not make electricity – they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.
Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?"
Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs."
Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.
In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.
The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.
Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it's back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.
A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of the ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of the ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of the ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."
Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"
I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earth neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.
There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. "Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal and are easily espoused, catchy buzz words, but when you look at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's environment than meets the eye, for sure.
If I had entitled this essay "The Embedded Costs of Going Green," who would have read it? But thank you for your attention, and good luck.
Our flag does not fly because the wind moves it; it flies with the last breath of each soldier/sailor/Marine/airman who died to protect it.

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Old 03-12-2022, 03:49 PM   #2
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One first must understand the REAL meaning of "going green", "green energy" and similar terms containing the word "green". It's a cartel code word for wealth transfer. When the word "green" enters the conversation, it's a strong clue to hold on to your wallet... it's about to become much lighter!

I'm all for preventing pollution, etc... but there always seems to be ulterior underlying motives rooted in $$$. Just a little bit unethical and hypocritical...
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Old 03-12-2022, 04:14 PM   #3
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Mr. McGuire:

Your friend's essay was very well done, except for his reference to Einstein's E=MC2. All of the alternate energy sources have embedded emissions and once you properly account for them, they may be as bad or worse than fossil fuels.

Ethanol is a perfect example. Once you add up planting, fertilizing, harvesting, drying and the CO2 produced by fermentation, ethanol uses more energy and makes more CO2 than the gasoline it is supposed to replace. Why does the government mandate it's use, well the big farmers and agrobusiness lobbying that's why.

So there may be no way to reduce our carbon output. In other words, we are truly screwed, so we might as well keep burning coal and other fossil fuels and live with a hotter planet with flooded sea shores.

Let's get back to talking about something fun, like camping in RVs. This is too depressing.

David
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Old 03-12-2022, 07:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by DavidEM View Post
Mr. McGuire:

Your friend's essay was very well done, except for his reference to Einstein's E=MC2. All of the alternate energy sources have embedded emissions and once you properly account for them, they may be as bad or worse than fossil fuels.

Ethanol is a perfect example. Once you add up planting, fertilizing, harvesting, drying and the CO2 produced by fermentation, ethanol uses more energy and makes more CO2 than the gasoline it is supposed to replace. Why does the government mandate it's use, well the big farmers and agrobusiness lobbying that's why.

So there may be no way to reduce our carbon output. In other words, we are truly screwed, so we might as well keep burning coal and other fossil fuels and live with a hotter planet with flooded sea shores.

Let's get back to talking about something fun, like camping in RVs. This is too depressing.

David
I agree about the getting back to Happy Thoughts and Happy Days Ahead

Just food for thought, what effect do you think millions of tons of silt entering the oceans every day on top of the manmade debris dumped there has on the rising level? I don't think the warmer temps affect it at all and perhaps help as the greener the planet (biologically) the increased vegetation not only feeds us but slows down run off. Plants consume greenhouse gasses and as you know don't live without them

Our family has been in AG since the beginning of recorded history. I as well aware of the Ethanol energy balance. The primary good aspect of Ethanol is the use as an Oxygenate.

CN has it right as to run when you here Green Energy
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Old 03-13-2022, 12:31 AM   #5
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lwmcguire - thank you for sharing. I have been saying (and thinking) this forever. Will electric vehicles reduce local emissions? Yes. Do electric cars eliminate emissions? No.

I love technology and hope we will eventually find a cold fusion solution (just saying).
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:10 AM   #6
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Too bad the smart people are not smart, or possibly honest, enough to understand the reality of the green movement.
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwmcguire View Post
(I did not write this, a friend shared it with me)
What is a battery?' I think Tesla said it best when they called it an Energy Storage System. That's important.
They do not make electricity – they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.
Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?"
Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs."
Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.
In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.
The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.
Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it's back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.
A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of the ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of the ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of the ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."
Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"
I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earth neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.
There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. "Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal and are easily espoused, catchy buzz words, but when you look at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's environment than meets the eye, for sure.
If I had entitled this essay "The Embedded Costs of Going Green," who would have read it? But thank you for your attention, and good luck.
Our flag does not fly because the wind moves it; it flies with the last breath of each soldier/sailor/Marine/airman who died to protect it.
On top of that, there are not enough mines on the planet to achieve the utopia goal of the greens by 2035. Even if we open new mining in the U.S. tomorrow. It would take decade to get permits approved. My hope would be that they put the first strip mine in downtown DC.
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Old 03-13-2022, 04:41 AM   #8
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Are there huge lithium deposits in Ukraine? Just asking for a friend...
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Old 03-13-2022, 11:56 AM   #9
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There are many areas of interest in the Ukraine that are valuable

For those following closely, did you notice the Dam blocking the water flow to Crimea was the first structure destroyed? It had reduced water flow by 85%

Water has a huge value if you're thirsty or hungry

There is a lot going on and you have to wonder what the true end game is
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:11 PM   #10
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Are there huge lithium deposits in Ukraine? Just asking for a friend...
An escalated or prolonged conflict between Russia and Ukraine could negatively impact Ukraine's long-term ability to supply the raw material gases neon, argon, krypton, and xenon needed for semiconductor production, according to researchers at TrendForce. Ukraine supplies nearly 70 percent of the world’s neon gas capacity. They also supply 17% of world's wheat.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:05 PM   #11
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[QUOTE=HMCSW) My hope would be that they put the first strip mine in downtown DC.[/QUOTE]

Doc - I agree with your thinking but the first one should be in Nancy P's front yard.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:24 PM   #12
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Doc - I agree with your thinking but the first one should be in Nancy P's front yard.
I never disagree with a Masterschief.
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Old 03-14-2022, 12:40 AM   #13
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Nice post but when your children or grandchildren run out of oil they won't be riding bicycles across the US. They will need some type of transportation in the future
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Old 03-14-2022, 01:09 AM   #14
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Nice post but when your children or grandchildren run out of oil they won't be riding bicycles across the US. They will need some type of transportation in the future
You seem to forget that people travelled long distances before the automobile was invented. But, newer technologies and increases in efficient uses of current tech should keep us in our cars for a couple of hundred years.
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Old 03-14-2022, 02:12 AM   #15
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Nice post but when your children or grandchildren run out of oil they won't be riding bicycles across the US. They will need some type of transportation in the future
Flux Capacitor for the great great great great grand children

In the meantime, a couple of generations from now everything will be Nuclear (or similar).

I’ve also read abt “Goo”.
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Old 03-14-2022, 04:17 AM   #16
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Technically, every method of energy creation on a large scale is polluting in one way or another. How you spin it and to what degree depends on your agenda. Everyone knows about fossil fuels. Solar is attacked because of raw materials mined for panel production. And nuclear... oh boy, that can spread radiation and cancer everywhere.

It's foolish to argue about finite resources. It's also foolish to refuse to admit how "crapping in our own nest" is killing us. That being said... it's VERY foolish to allow both of these mindsets to be controlled by groups with a profit making agenda at the expense of everything and everyone.

Deep down inside, people know we MUST evolve - it takes tremendous courage to initiate change... AND do it for right reasons.
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Old 03-14-2022, 11:47 AM   #17
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And then on top of all that, we now have to worry about Guam tipping over.
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Old 03-14-2022, 11:56 AM   #18
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We spent 20 years in Afghanistan, spent trillions of dollars and countless American troops died (for nothing). Brandon pulled us out and now China is negotiating with them for Lithium mining rights. Possibly the largest deposit in the world. Tell me thats not completley *&cked up.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/18/busin...ing/index.html
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Old 03-14-2022, 02:13 PM   #19
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Warning, entering the political realm.
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Old 03-16-2022, 07:14 PM   #20
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Nice post but when your children or grandchildren run out of oil they won't be riding bicycles across the US. They will need some type of transportation in the future
We are never going to run out of oil. To think otherwise is to ignore economics.

As oil gets more difficult and expensive to find other fuels will become more attractive and oil consumption will go down naturally. When and if oil is ever really rare its price will be so high that no one will use it.

Supply and demand.
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