Best leveling system (yes, another thread on that!)

[Mr Sunshine]

We had the HWH kick down jacks on our Vegas for 6 years and hundreds of nights. They worked flawlessly and could easily raise the front tires off the ground. I am pretty sure they could raise the rears enough, too.

I do know they would raise enough that on a slope the emergency brake and gears wouldn't hold. (Don't ask how I know this!)

[taylorbob1]

Originally Posted by pkasan

Do you feel you have lost any ground clearance with the BF leveling jacks? I'm debating whether to go with the HWH kick downs ot the Big foot platinum for Ford E350.

If the ground clearance is fine without having to kick down at four points then that seems highly preferable. Less moving parts to be concerned about. It also looks like the BF has the travel to get the vehicle off the ground for a tire change (with support jack). I'm not sure the kick down system has the enough travel for a tire change lift.

It’s all abt cost
Big Foot is the best value
HWH kick-downs the most expensive

The kick downs have the most ground clearance but the foot is very small so you need blocks all of the time to eliminate sinking into ground
That said, you can change a tire, just add more blocks under the feet.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by pkasan

Do you feel you have lost any ground clearance with the BF leveling jacks? I'm debating whether to go with the HWH kick downs ot the Big foot platinum for Ford E350.

If the ground clearance is fine without having to kick down at four points then that seems highly preferable. Less moving parts to be concerned about. It also looks like the BF has the travel to get the vehicle off the ground for a tire change (with support jack). I'm not sure the kick down system has the enough travel for a tire change lift.

I have Big Foot Platinum on the Ford E-350 chassis. Yes... there IS enough piston (ram) travel to completely lift all 4 tires off the ground... I just did that a couple weeks ago to bleed air from the system.

A couple notes... Big Foot did NOT recommend the Snap Pads, due to ground clearance on the Ford E-series chassis, so I did not get them. I have had no problem with clearance of the jacks - even on hilly, unlevel campsites. The steel feet seem to be up high enough to avoid dragging.

As was stated - use extra pads (I use heavy rubber mat squares) under the feet for additional lift if needed.

[pkasan]

Originally Posted by Metalman

I have LCI levelers. They have and continue to give me problems. One leveler leaks when up, had to replace the driver's control panel, get an error message almost every time the RV is started. Also, the pistons look much too feeble to last long. Junk. The levelers that retract with springs might not be as high tech as the ones that apply hydraulic pressure to keep the levelers up, but replacing springs has to be easier and cheaper than replacing hydraulic levelers that will not hold pressure when the jacks are in the up position.

Thanks. I will avoid LCI and specify a system with springs.

[pkasan]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I have Big Foot Platinum on the Ford E-350 chassis. Yes... there IS enough piston (ram) travel to completely lift all 4 tires off the ground... I just did that a couple weeks ago to bleed air from the system.

A couple notes... Big Foot did NOT recommend the Snap Pads, due to ground clearance on the Ford E-series chassis, so I did not get them. I have had no problem with clearance of the jacks - even on hilly, unlevel campsites. The steel feet seem to be up high enough to avoid dragging.

As was stated - use extra pads (I use heavy rubber mat squares) under the feet for additional lift if needed.

Thanks. Very useful Info. Incidentally, I meant to say that I was looking at the BF Platinum 450 since my Axis is 350 vs 450. I'm not sure if BF distinguishes between 350 and 450.

[atreis]

Originally Posted by pkasan

Thanks. I will avoid LCI and specify a system with springs.

Neither of the recommended systems, HWH kick-down and Bigfoot, have springs. I'm not sure any of the systems for smaller units have springs. IMO, specifying that is not necessary.

I have Bigfoot and am very happy with them, but with the low ground clearance of the E-350 I'd likely go with HWH kick-downs. (My Express 4500 has more ground clearance. Enough that adding snap pads during installation was no concern.)

[taylorbob1]

Originally Posted by atreis

Neither of the recommended systems, HWH kick-down and Bigfoot, have springs. I'm not sure any of the systems for smaller units have springs. IMO, specifying that is not necessary.

I have Bigfoot and am very happy with them, but with the low ground clearance of the E-350 I'd likely go with HWH kick-downs. (My Express 4500 has more ground clearance. Enough that adding snap pads during installation was no concern.)

My HWH straight acting jacks have springs

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by pkasan

Thanks. I will avoid LCI and specify a system with springs.

Just because one person has an issue doesn’t mean an overall system is bad. Nobody on this site can tell you a failure rate based on total systems sold because LCI is used on more than just Thor and Thor may install systems differently than other RV manufacturers or LCI themselves.

As a A note the LCI Level Up system on our prior Challenger worked great with no issues for 5 years and I always used auto level.

[Mr Sunshine]

My HWH kick down jacks had springs too. That's what brings them up to retract. The feet aren't very big, but never gave me a problem and I never used pads or blocks under them. Maybe that was because the Vegas wasn't super heavy.

[10scDust]

We have the LCI system on our 2016 Thor.
Bought the RV in 2018 with about 12K miles on it, so it was fairly still new.
The leveling system seemed to over do itself and get the entire rig too high going back and forth in auto level.
Learning to manually level, through this Forums, has led me to do it that way with more desirable results.

Seems like it has always wanted to give an error, with a beeping sound, to clear whenever you start it and put it into drive.
Then you must go back and clear it, or listen to it beep!

I had one of the logic valves fail on me, it was sticking on occasion, so I troubleshot the system and corrected the problem. Buying the valve, the supplier had a minimum $$order, so I have get extra valve to fulfill being able to purchase ($75 for two and all my labor/troubleshooting & repairs).

Been working fine since, then the main control component, not the keypad, needed replaced to keep us going.
Now, the external sensor error appears constantly upon clearing and I cannot get the system to cooperate and level the rig. (This has been intermittent for 6 months as I think I corrected it to reappear again).
At this point, 2 external sensors later, I am believing the wiring may be chaffed/grounded out & shorted somewhere.

I will check that out when weather cooperates crawling around underneath the thing. I've already bought the wires to replace the entire length, plug-in to plug-in if needed.

Frustrating yes, I have hydraulics as a background in machine repair trade, I can troubleshoot the electronics with a guide or guidance sometimes. I think logically through all these experiences and have tackled many.

Justify replacing the LCI with BF? Do I want to spend that kind of cash? I mean after all, it is a Thor product and you never know where something else will need to be addressed, that equaling cash out once more.... I digress. (It has been a bad year on failures within the RV) ugh.

I wonder if you can use the LCI jacks with a BigFoot system? Maybe the pump system too? This surely could cut some expense if you could when changing over.

Has anybody hermorphradited their system as such?

[Chateau_Nomad]

Has anybody hermorphradited their system as such?

... Well, I learned a new word today! Definitely gonna add that one to my RV slang vocabulary!!

[paulwadley]

I had The Equalizer System installed on my Mercedes Benz Sprinter Chassis and love them. Some Class A motor homes have the same system. They don't use the springs to retract the rams. The system works great.

Paul

[MLP]

Even with levelers, I check on how many degrees the rig is off. I add blocks, amount depends on how many degrees, under the tires and then use the levelers to stabilize the rig. Don't allow the tires to lift off the ground.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by MLP

Even with levelers, I check on how many degrees the rig is off. I add blocks, amount depends on how many degrees, under the tires and then use the levelers to stabilize the rig. Don't allow the tires to lift off the ground.

Ooops! Guilty as charged...

[CHS]

I have the big Foot system (very happy with it also) That said, I also use the "Level Mate Pro" to see how much the unit is off before leveling. I have found that the front tires want to come off the ground due to the front end ending up lower when parking. I then add a few blocks under the wheels first before I level.

As for clearance. The issue I have is with the rear stabilizers that came with my unit (E450 chassis) They hang so low that if and when the rear end bottoms out due to a low gas station driveway or similar situation, they make contact with the ground before it hits those metal V shaped skid protection. By the way, great Engineering Thor.
I had them in for warranty repair and they could not understand why (if not being able to work) did they get bent. Now I know why.
Going to take them off this winter.

[Chateau_Nomad]

I've thought a LOT about the "wheels off the ground" scenarios with hydraulic levelers. My conclusion:

All "big three" leveling manufacturers/installers will recommend against having ANY wheel/tire off the ground - from strictly a liability perspective.

When I level, I use ALL FOUR jacks FIRMLY planted, which removes all suspension induced movement. Even the jack at the highest corner is planted firmly enough to prevent rolling of the wheel. BUT - I still chock two of the wheels on the "downhill" side, probably from a combination of habit and fear/ignorance of the unknown.

Thinking critically... If you have a 12,000# structure supported on FOUR non-moving stilts with a low center of gravity, how in the world is it going to tip or roll?? The jacks would either have to collapse/bend or either slide. And with those jacks firmly planted, HOW are the wheels going to roll?? Think of an Outer Banks condo on stilts.

The ONLY scenario where I think rolling is a danger is if ONLY two (end) jacks are firmly planted and TWO wheels (opposite end) are in full contact with the ground. Then a strong enough inertial force could overcome the two jacks - causing them to collapse. But WHO would only use TWO of their FOUR leveling jacks - unless they completely are unaware of physics and their instruction manual??

[sportcoupe]

I have Equalizer Leveling system installed on my Vegas E350 chassis. All four are 8" off the ground when retracted. The rears are so far behind the axle that departure angle is reduced. Backing into a parking spot with a curb at the rear results in scrapes. Backing into my level driveway (tiny slope to meet the street), again results in scrapes.

I fixed this and improved handling by installing rear air bags. The bags gave me an additional 1.5" clearance in rear at levelers, now 9.5" clearance. As a bonus, I don't need an upgraded rear sway bar anymore, the air bags reduce sway greatly if connected for separate fill.

[ericmac450]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I've thought a LOT about the "wheels off the ground" scenarios with hydraulic levelers. My conclusion:

All "big three" leveling manufacturers/installers will recommend against having ANY wheel/tire off the ground - from strictly a liability perspective.

When I level, I use ALL FOUR jacks FIRMLY planted, which removes all suspension induced movement. Even the jack at the highest corner is planted firmly enough to prevent rolling of the wheel. BUT - I still chock two of the wheels on the "downhill" side, probably from a combination of habit and fear/ignorance of the unknown.

Thinking critically... If you have a 12,000# structure supported on FOUR non-moving stilts with a low center of gravity, how in the world is it going to tip or roll?? The jacks would either have to collapse/bend or either slide. And with those jacks firmly planted, HOW are the wheels going to roll?? Think of an Outer Banks condo on stilts.

The ONLY scenario where I think rolling is a danger is if ONLY two (end) jacks are firmly planted and TWO wheels (opposite end) are in full contact with the ground. Then a strong enough inertial force could overcome the two jacks - causing them to collapse. But WHO would only use TWO of their FOUR leveling jacks - unless they completely are unaware of physics and their instruction manual??

Where are the jacks located? On the frame or further out? I could see a situation where too much internal weight got to one side on a slideout or something....my kids are young but when all 4 get to running around, I could see anything happening, lol (even with the wheels on the ground.)

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

The ONLY scenario where I think rolling is a danger is if ONLY two (end) jacks are firmly planted and TWO wheels (opposite end) are in full contact with the ground. Then a strong enough inertial force could overcome the two jacks - causing them to collapse. But WHO would only use TWO of their FOUR leveling jacks - unless they completely are unaware of physics and their instruction manual??

How would this "inertial force" be generated since the MH is stationary and not moving?

Originally Posted by https://www.britannica.com/science/inertial-force

inertial force, also called Fictitious Force, any force invoked by an observer to maintain the validity of Isaac Newton’s second law of motion in a reference frame that is rotating or otherwise accelerating at a constant rate. For specific inertial forces, see centrifugal force; Coriolis force; d’Alembert’s principle.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

How would this "inertial force" be generated since the MH is stationary and not moving?

I'll be more specific: Let's say uncle Isaac is in your motorhome and decides to demonstrate a new break dance he learned under the apple tree today.

While executing his "dance moves"... he applies a force opposite in direction to an accelerating force acting on "his" body (created by him) and equal to the product of the accelerating force and the mass of said body - created by him.

In other words... He rocks the motorhome to & fro... it's not tied down - who knows where it will go!

Answer to another question... the levelers were installed in the Big Foot facility in White Pigeon MI. They are welded to the frame rails - the fronts are roughly even with the front of the cab doors; the rear ones are about midway between the rear axle and the rear of the 25' long coach.

With all four jacks down and wheels/suspension lifted about 6", it's not going anywhere.