Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Tech Forums > Modifications and Updates
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-03-2017, 03:11 PM   #1
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New York
Posts: 38
THOR #1727
Four Deep Cycle Batteries

Hi all,
I could use some knowledge from you experienced owners.
I just purchased a 2017 Hurricane 35M.
It has Two house Batteries, I have four new Deep Cycle Batteries that I want to install in my coach.
Will this help my Dry Camping?
Will I need to Change out my Inverter or Converter?
Will my current Charging capabilities be ok or will I need to do something different to charge 4 Batteries instead of the Two Batteries.

We are in Arizona right now at a Camp Ground hooked up to Shore Power 50 Amps.
It is chilly here so I am using to 110V Electric Heaters to save my Propane.
So using the Heaters, Wife using Washer and Dryer Units, TV on and some lights on I noticed my Xantrex Meter will show 11.5 Volts. Is this Normal? I thought being on 50 Amp service my Batteries should not show a draw on them.
Also some kind of an Automatic Breaker will kick off and then come back on. I lost almost all power in most of my outlets.
Electrically Challenged Toolman Butch.
__________________

__________________
toolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 05:04 PM   #2
gmc
Senior Member
 
gmc's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 32A
State: Florida
Posts: 1,824
THOR #2829
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman View Post
Hi all,
I could use some knowledge from you experienced owners.
I just purchased a 2017 Hurricane 35M.
It has Two house Batteries, I have four new Deep Cycle Batteries that I want to install in my coach.
Will this help my Dry Camping?
Will I need to Change out my Inverter or Converter?
Will my current Charging capabilities be ok or will I need to do something different to charge 4 Batteries instead of the Two Batteries.
It depends... Need specifications of the existing and new batteries...
Are all batteries 12v? (some use 6v in series...)
I assume the existing coach batteries are 'flooded' (wet cell)...
WHat is the battery chemistry? Are the new flooded, AGM (absorbed glass mat), Gell?
What are the amp hour capacities of existing and new?

In general the higher the amp hour capacity, the longer you can run on batteries... As safe rule of thumb - half the rated capacity is available to use...

The battery chemistry will determine if current converter can be used to charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman View Post
We are in Arizona right now at a Camp Ground hooked up to Shore Power 50 Amps.
It is chilly here so I am using to 110V Electric Heaters to save my Propane.
So using the Heaters, Wife using Washer and Dryer Units, TV on and some lights on I noticed my Xantrex Meter will show 11.5 Volts. Is this Normal? I thought being on 50 Amp service my Batteries should not show a draw on them.
Also some kind of an Automatic Breaker will kick off and then come back on. I lost almost all power in most of my outlets.
Electrically Challenged Toolman Butch.
When plugged in to shore power - the inverter can be turned OFF... (Some include a transfer switch so they will bypass and allow shore/generator power thru - but without that you could still be running 110 off 12v for the inverter controlled outlets...)
Sounds like the inverter is tripping out on low voltage - and waiting for batteries to charge again...
11.5 is VERY LOW voltage for a 12v system.
__________________

__________________
Greg
Not yet retired...
Florida (Michigan transplant)
2014 Hurricane 32A
2000 Infinity (previous)
gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 03:11 PM   #3
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New York
Posts: 38
THOR #1727
My Batteries

The 2 batteries are with no name but I believe they are 20 AH 12V Flooded 12 V made by Exide J16. A label on them has 27MDP. I googled this # and I came up with these specs that I listed.
My four new Batteries are Trojan 30XHS 12V C-16 130AH at 20Hrs or 105AH at 5Hr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmc View Post
It depends... Need specifications of the existing and new batteries...
Are all batteries 12v? (some use 6v in series...)
I assume the existing coach batteries are 'flooded' (wet cell)...
WHat is the battery chemistry? Are the new flooded, AGM (absorbed glass mat), Gell?
What are the amp hour capacities of existing and new?

In general the higher the amp hour capacity, the longer you can run on batteries... As safe rule of thumb - half the rated capacity is available to use...

The battery chemistry will determine if current converter can be used to charge.



When plugged in to shore power - the inverter can be turned OFF... (Some include a transfer switch so they will bypass and allow shore/generator power thru - but without that you could still be running 110 off 12v for the inverter controlled outlets...)
Sounds like the inverter is tripping out on low voltage - and waiting for batteries to charge again...
11.5 is VERY LOW voltage for a 12v system.
__________________
toolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 03:59 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,282
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman View Post
....cut....

My four new Batteries are Trojan 30XHS 12V C-16 130AH at 20Hrs or 105AH at 5Hr.
That's impressive specifications for a 66-pound battery. Their specific energy density looks very good for a 12-Volt battery.

Most "experts" (which definitely doesn't include me) normally don't recommend having 4 batteries wired in parallel. If you tied them all together you'd have 6, and they would be of different sizes, brands, and age. Experts would certainly not recommend that.

These batteries seem ideal for a light golf cart or other 48-VDC device where the batteries would be connected in series. That's not to say they can't be connected in parallel in a 12-VDC system, although you'd want to keep cables of equal length to insure batteries charge and discharge as evenly as possible.


I'm curious how or why you selected these new batteries?
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 11:48 PM   #5
gmc
Senior Member
 
gmc's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 32A
State: Florida
Posts: 1,824
THOR #2829
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman View Post
The 2 batteries are with no name but I believe they are 20 AH 12V Flooded 12 V made by Exide J16. A label on them has 27MDP. I googled this # and I came up with these specs that I listed.
My four new Batteries are Trojan 30XHS 12V C-16 130AH at 20Hrs or 105AH at 5Hr.
Well - that will be a significant upgrade in capacity...
The Trojan 30XHS shows to be a flooded deep cycle - so the on board converter is usable without damaging the new batteries...
But a much larger capacity - it may take a longggg time to charge. See what the output of the converter is - may be worth an upgrade as well.

I would not ADD the batteries to the current 2 - but replace them (assuming you can fit all four... even 2 of those would be a good upgrade). They will not be happy together (the lower capacity batteries will get severely overcharged while charging the larger ones...) Batteries joined in series or parallel should be matched in capacity and age.

They should be wired with short leads between the batteries - with the positive take off at one end of the bank and negative at the other. The intent to balance the load ACROSS the bank... (drawing all from one side will have more power drawn from the first battery... and less from each as you go down the line (electricity always follows path of least resistance...)
__________________
Greg
Not yet retired...
Florida (Michigan transplant)
2014 Hurricane 32A
2000 Infinity (previous)
gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 12:06 AM   #6
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New York
Posts: 38
THOR #1727
I was setting up a Solar System in my Class C. Things changed so we purchased this Hurricane 35M. I had a expert on Solar tell me that these are very good Batteries for a RV Solar System. I had them installed in my Thor Chateau Class C. Solar Panels kept them charged up to 14.8V's.
So now I want to install these 4 Trojans in my 35M. I have plenty of space. I do not want to use the Solar Panels. So my questions of will y current charging system handle doing the 4 Batteries? This I have no knowledge of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
That's impressive specifications for a 66-pound battery. Their specific energy density looks very good for a 12-Volt battery.

Most "experts" (which definitely doesn't include me) normally don't recommend having 4 batteries wired in parallel. If you tied them all together you'd have 6, and they would be of different sizes, brands, and age. Experts would certainly not recommend that.

These batteries seem ideal for a light golf cart or other 48-VDC device where the batteries would be connected in series. That's not to say they can't be connected in parallel in a 12-VDC system, although you'd want to keep cables of equal length to insure batteries charge and discharge as evenly as possible.


I'm curious how or why you selected these new batteries?
__________________
toolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 12:07 AM   #7
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New York
Posts: 38
THOR #1727
I was setting up a Solar System in my Class C. Things changed so we purchased this Hurricane 35M. I had a expert on Solar tell me that these are very good Batteries for a RV Solar System. I had them installed in my Thor Chateau Class C. Solar Panels kept them charged up to 14.8V's.
So now I want to install these 4 Trojans in my 35M. I have plenty of space. I do not want to use the Solar Panels. So my questions of will y current charging system handle doing the 4 Batteries? This I have no knowledge of.[
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmc View Post
Well - that will be a significant upgrade in capacity...
The Trojan 30XHS shows to be a flooded deep cycle - so the on board converter is usable without damaging the new batteries...
But a much larger capacity - it may take a longggg time to charge. See what the output of the converter is - may be worth an upgrade as well.

I would not ADD the batteries to the current 2 - but replace them (assuming you can fit all four... even 2 of those would be a good upgrade). They will not be happy together (the lower capacity batteries will get severely overcharged while charging the larger ones...) Batteries joined in series or parallel should be matched in capacity and age.

They should be wired with short leads between the batteries - with the positive take off at one end of the bank and negative at the other. The intent to balance the load ACROSS the bank... (drawing all from one side will have more power drawn from the first battery... and less from each as you go down the line (electricity always follows path of least resistance...)
__________________
toolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 12:51 AM   #8
gmc
Senior Member
 
gmc's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 32A
State: Florida
Posts: 1,824
THOR #2829
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman View Post
I was setting up a Solar System in my Class C. Things changed so we purchased this Hurricane 35M. I had a expert on Solar tell me that these are very good Batteries for a RV Solar System. I had them installed in my Thor Chateau Class C. Solar Panels kept them charged up to 14.8V's.
So now I want to install these 4 Trojans in my 35M. I have plenty of space. I do not want to use the Solar Panels. So my questions of will y current charging system handle doing the 4 Batteries? This I have no knowledge of.[
Can you see (in the envelope of papers that came with the rig or reading the label) what converter you have? Want to take a look at the specs to see what it is capable of to be able to give a better answer.
In my 2014 Hurricane 32A - the converter is under the bed... May not be the same place in yours.

Definitely sounds like a good set of batteries (solar or not)...
__________________
Greg
Not yet retired...
Florida (Michigan transplant)
2014 Hurricane 32A
2000 Infinity (previous)
gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 02:11 PM   #9
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New York
Posts: 38
THOR #1727
First of all so grateful for the help. I have a 55Amp Deckmount AC converter. Also a XM1800 Watt Inverter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmc View Post
Can you see (in the envelope of papers that came with the rig or reading the label) what converter you have? Want to take a look at the specs to see what it is capable of to be able to give a better answer.
In my 2014 Hurricane 32A - the converter is under the bed... May not be the same place in yours.

Definitely sounds like a good set of batteries (solar or not)...
__________________
toolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 06:30 PM   #10
gmc
Senior Member
 
gmc's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 32A
State: Florida
Posts: 1,824
THOR #2829
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman View Post
First of all so grateful for the help. I have a 55Amp Deckmount AC converter. Also a XM1800 Watt Inverter.
OK... so your 4 batteries have between 400-500AH capacity.
Your charger is capable of 55Amp... so simplified (not taking into account the different modes of charge - bulk, absorption, float) a fully discharged 450A battery will take 8 hours to charge at 55Amps.

Now er shouldn't be running the batteries down to that level... 50% is safe - (I believe Trojan says you can go deeper) - so normal use down to 50% will take 4+ hours to recharge.

It will work if those timeframes are acceptable to you.
A higher capacity converter would allow you to charge faster which may be important if recharging by generator each day.
(A 75amp converter will shorten those times to 6 hours for fully discharges... 3 hours for 50%...)
__________________
Greg
Not yet retired...
Florida (Michigan transplant)
2014 Hurricane 32A
2000 Infinity (previous)
gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 06:50 PM   #11
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New York
Posts: 38
THOR #1727
Ok now I am getting to understand. Is this using Shore Power and or Generator Power. Thank you so much for your help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmc View Post
OK... so your 4 batteries have between 400-500AH capacity.
Your charger is capable of 55Amp... so simplified (not taking into account the different modes of charge - bulk, absorption, float) a fully discharged 450A battery will take 8 hours to charge at 55Amps.

Now er shouldn't be running the batteries down to that level... 50% is safe - (I believe Trojan says you can go deeper) - so normal use down to 50% will take 4+ hours to recharge.

It will work if those timeframes are acceptable to you.
A higher capacity converter would allow you to charge faster which may be important if recharging by generator each day.
(A 75amp converter will shorten those times to 6 hours for fully discharges... 3 hours for 50%...)
__________________
toolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 08:06 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Yosemitebob's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Four Winds 33SW, Diesel
State: Washington
Posts: 319
THOR #3195
There is a trade off using a higher capacity charger, it will shorten your battery life overall. Make sure you have a equalizing phase on your charger, if not higher capacity charger will shorten you batter life even faster. I installed a TrueCharge 2 just for the equalizing of my batteries, and I do use a 60a charger. (the TruCharge 2 is higher just to keep my batteries exercised and in good shape).
__________________
Yosemitebob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 10:35 PM   #13
gmc
Senior Member
 
gmc's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 32A
State: Florida
Posts: 1,824
THOR #2829
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolman View Post
Ok now I am getting to understand. Is this using Shore Power and or Generator Power. Thank you so much for your help.
Either one... By the time power gets to the converter - it doesn't know where it came from.
The transfer switch handles the cutover from shore to generator - nothing else on board knows the difference (except the residents hearing the genny running )
__________________
Greg
Not yet retired...
Florida (Michigan transplant)
2014 Hurricane 32A
2000 Infinity (previous)
gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 05:46 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,282
THOR #2121
Should also consider what may happen when engine alternator tries to charge four batteries with a total of 520 Amp-hours.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 08:41 PM   #15
gmc
Senior Member
 
gmc's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 32A
State: Florida
Posts: 1,824
THOR #2829
From some searches, appears since 2008 that Ford is using 175amp alternator in the f53 chassis (was 95 before that).

Didn't find specific info on 2017, but think it will be fine.
__________________
Greg
Not yet retired...
Florida (Michigan transplant)
2014 Hurricane 32A
2000 Infinity (previous)
gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 08:54 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,282
THOR #2121
I'd check to make sure the alternator doesn't overheat if asked to work at full capacity for hours. I'm not sure how these alternators are rated (duty cycle). I'd also check to make sure alternator-to-house controls don't short-cycle.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 12:23 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Yosemitebob's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Four Winds 33SW, Diesel
State: Washington
Posts: 319
THOR #3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
I'd check to make sure the alternator doesn't overheat if asked to work at full capacity for hours. I'm not sure how these alternators are rated (duty cycle). I'd also check to make sure alternator-to-house controls don't short-cycle.
I have the BIRD, it controls this, I also have two alternators one at 220a and the other at 175a in the engine compartment. There is no bad effect on them. I've had 4 6v for over a year in this MH and 5 years in a 5th wheel the same version.

BIRD:
Intellitec’s Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay ( BIRD )offers a new approach to charging batteries in an RV application. Unlike prior systems that only allowed charging the RV battery from the engine’s alternator, the Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay charges both batteries when either one is being charged. When the coach is being driven, both batteries will be charged from the engine’s alternator. When the coach is plugged into shore power, both batteries will be charged from the converter. If neither battery is being charged, the batteries are fully isolated. The controller also senses heavy loads on either battery to prevent the wrong battery from being inadvertently discharged.
__________________
Yosemitebob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 01:26 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,282
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemitebob View Post
I have the BIRD, it controls this, I also have two alternators one at 220a and the other at 175a in the engine compartment. There is no bad effect on them. I've had 4 6v for over a year in this MH and 5 years in a 5th wheel the same version.

BIRD:
Intellitec’s Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay ( BIRD )offers a new approach to charging batteries in an RV application. Unlike prior systems that only allowed charging the RV battery from the engine’s alternator, the Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay charges both batteries when either one is being charged. When the coach is being driven, both batteries will be charged from the engine’s alternator. When the coach is plugged into shore power, both batteries will be charged from the converter. If neither battery is being charged, the batteries are fully isolated. The controller also senses heavy loads on either battery to prevent the wrong battery from being inadvertently discharged.
The question is what limits current?

If someone adds more and more house battery-bank capacity to the point that a single alternator can't supply enough current while also maintaining adequate voltage for chassis needs (as programmed in BIRD) what will happen? I have a pretty good idea, but is that something you'd want?

Most of these motorhomes come with one or two batteries, with a total capacity of probably 80 to 160 Amp-hours. My point is that if someone plans to more than triple that to 520 Amp-hours, they should make sure they consider the effect on everything.

Not saying they shouldn't do it; just to anticipate issues and correct in advance if possible.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 02:22 PM   #19
Axis/Vegas Enthusiast
 
JamieGeek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Michigan
Posts: 8,486
THOR #1150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance
If someone adds more and more house battery-bank capacity to the point that a single alternator can't supply enough current while also maintaining adequate voltage for chassis needs (as programmed in BIRD) what will happen? I have a pretty good idea, but is that something you'd want?
Typically what happens in systems that can't provide enough current is that the voltage drops. When the voltage drops below the BIRD's set point it will disconnect the battery bank.

The question is: When that happens is it already too late?
__________________
2014 Thor Axis 24.1
2018 Chevy Bolt
blog - https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
JamieGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 03:34 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,282
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
Typically what happens in systems that can't provide enough current is that the voltage drops. When the voltage drops below the BIRD's set point it will disconnect the battery bank.

The question is: When that happens is it already too late?
Exactly what I'd expect if battery bank overwhelms alternator's excess capacity, which could be less than 100 Amps if running other chassis needs -- lights, A/C fan, engine electronics, etc...

I would guess that after the house batteries are disconnected due to low voltage, the chassis battery voltage would increase fairly quick, at which point the BIRD may try to reconnect again after a time delay. And because the house batteries would still be in same state of charge, or lower, the same thing "could" happen over and over again. That's what I meant by short cycling. It may not happen at all, but it's worth checking before it could cause an issue.

This is one reason I like a dedicated alternator for "large" systems with high capacity battery banks. That way if something goes wrong (and it should be much less likely due to simplicity) it wouldn't affect the vehicle's ability to be driven in any way.
__________________

__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 01:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×