Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Tech Forums > Modifications and Updates
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-29-2016, 03:15 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
SuperD's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2017 Windsport 29M
State: Indiana
Posts: 3,692
THOR #5196
The device shown in the picture is not a stabilizer, it is a steering dampener. The purpose of the dampener is the same as a shock absorber, it lessens feedback to the wheel from small road bumps and provides resistance to quick inputs from the wheel or the road. A steering stabilizer is a self centering device which not only lessens feedback to the wheel, but is also self centering. With the exception of the self centering from a spring, the internals of a dampener and a stabilizer are very similar. In the event of a front tire blow-out the stabilizer provides a great deal more control due to the self centering action of the spring.

__________________
USMC Veteran
FMCA 101070S

Dave & Myra
One day your life will flash before your eyes,
make sure it's worth watching!
SuperD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 03:22 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 5,115
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkb View Post
Each time this subject is discussed, we intend to post a photo of our front end undercarriage. ...cut....
Nice picture.

Steering stabilizers are of little interest to me (figuring manufacturers should build these motorhomes right from the onset), but details in background from a different perspective are revealing. It's not something you see everyday.

Details of the entry step, battery box, and frame extension are a lot more interesting to me. Thanks for posting.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 03:24 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
Hudsoner's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 29D
State: Florida
Posts: 248
THOR #5756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-FL View Post
I can pretty much follow, and agree, with everything you said. However, either the Ford F53 chassis doesn't come with a OEM steering stabilizer or someone stole mine, because there isn't one on the front of it.
Sadly enough, the F53 chassis has no steering stabilizer. One can get aftermarket solutions, such as the Steer Safe System (SteerSafe.com » How Does It Work?), or a variety of steering dampeners. I have the Steer Safe installed, but I am not sure if that was such a good investment, but I will try to tweak it a little more and see if I want to add an additional steering stabilizer.
__________________
Hudsoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 03:28 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
SuperD's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2017 Windsport 29M
State: Indiana
Posts: 3,692
THOR #5196
Go to you tube and search motor home crashes, watch the video of the MH having a blow-out and swerving in to the median, might change your mind. Changed my mind immediately!!!
__________________
USMC Veteran
FMCA 101070S

Dave & Myra
One day your life will flash before your eyes,
make sure it's worth watching!
SuperD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 03:50 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 5,115
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperD View Post
Go to you tube and search motor home crashes, watch the video of the MH having a blow-out and swerving in to the median, might change your mind. Changed my mind immediately!!!
Playing Devil's Advocate:

Do you know for a fact that that motorhome didn't have a steering stabilizer already?

Even if it didn't, do we know that a stabilizer would have prevented "that" crash?

Do we even know that steering stabilizers aren't more likely to cause crashes due to blowouts?


I've seen the demo video of the staged blowout to suggest these things prevent loss of control, but it proves nothing of real value. Motorhomes have blowouts all the time without losing control, so one more proves nothing.

Besides, not all blowouts are the same. Not even close. Forces exerted on the steering vary drastically depending on where the tire ruptures and let's go.

It's easy to make marketing claims but proving something is a lot tougher. It requires a lot of data and analysis of "many" crashes with and without stabilizers.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 04:10 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
TyCreek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.2
State: Idaho
Posts: 533
THOR #1944
SuperD, I've seen many videos and experience a couple fronts go over the years... I'm not sure how an RV crash is really evidence ... I still think it's what the driver does in those first moments that effects the outcome most. Just one thought ... Could heavily dampened feedback cause the driver's reaction to be slower or inappropriate for the situation?
__________________
Axis 24.2 "was" tug'n a JK
TyCreek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 04:26 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 5,115
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyCreek View Post
SuperD, I've seen many videos and experience a couple fronts go over the years... I'm not sure how an RV crash is really evidence ... I still think it's what the driver does in those first moments that effects the outcome most. Just one thought ... Could heavily dampened feedback cause the driver's reaction to be slower or inappropriate for the situation?
It goes beyond that. The premise of the argument is that a steering stabilizer will keep the wheels pointed straight ahead, but if it were strong enough to make that happen, how would you then steer the MH for quick maneuvers if needed?

Not only that, but there is statistical proof that vehicles like mine (and many others) are more likely to lose control when a rear tire blows than a front one, and rear tires can't steer themselves away from straight ahead when on a solid axle. If simply keeping a tire pointed ahead was better, then why are rear blowouts more dangerous on most 4-wheel vehicles.

I know why this happens, and it's complicated. The point is that things can't be over-simplified.

On the other hand if people feel safer, then it's probably worth every penny -- whether it helps or not.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 04:33 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
SuperD's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2017 Windsport 29M
State: Indiana
Posts: 3,692
THOR #5196
I don't know if the coach had a stabilizer or not. The forces generated by a front blow-out are tremendous, does a stabilizer help, I think so. NTSB, and many private companies have conducted tests, these tests were done to examine exactly what occurs when a tire blows, the tests were not done to sell products. First instinct for most drivers is to brake, extensive tests have shown that is exactly the wrong thing to do, this generates even more side force increasing the chance of loosing control. There are videos and articles which demonstrate and explain the physics of a blow-out. In my opinion a steering stabilizer is another safety device not unlike antilock brakes or seat belts, something else to assist the driver in an emergency. I'm not trying to sell anything, I just believe stabilizers work. The video I referenced was dramatic and I seriously pray it NEVER happens to anyone, but to me it merely demonstrated what CAN happen. Some people drive fords, some chevys, the choice is always your preference.
__________________
USMC Veteran
FMCA 101070S

Dave & Myra
One day your life will flash before your eyes,
make sure it's worth watching!
SuperD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2016, 03:10 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 37GT
State: Florida
Posts: 809
THOR #5246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
It goes beyond that. The premise of the argument is that a steering stabilizer will keep the wheels pointed straight ahead, but if it were strong enough to make that happen, how would you then steer the MH for quick maneuvers if needed?

Not only that, but there is statistical proof that vehicles like mine (and many others) are more likely to lose control when a rear tire blows than a front one, and rear tires can't steer themselves away from straight ahead when on a solid axle. If simply keeping a tire pointed ahead was better, then why are rear blowouts more dangerous on most 4-wheel vehicles.
Since I don't have a Safe-T installed I don't know the exact answer. But I have looked at them and they are not built to lock the wheels straight. I am pretty sure you can turn the steering freely. If you are traveling down the interstate at 65mph and you think one of the maneuvers available to you is swerving, like you may be able to do in your car, then you have no business ever getting behind the wheel of a large MH anyway.

Chance, since your signature never lists what type of unit you may have, only lists "still looking", are you basing the opinions on certain articles, experience in a 28' MH, 38' MH, 45' DP?????

I can assure you that based on real life experiences (retired IL State Police) that for the average driver a front steer tire blow out is much more dangerous for trucks, RV's, cars, and motorcycles alike, rather than a rear blow out on a vehicle. Why do you think Federal transportation regulations (plus many states) require a different tread depth on front tires than rear tires on commercial vehicles?
__________________
Full Time in 2017 Newmar Ventana 4369
pulling a 24' enclosed (Mini Cooper/Harley/Kayak)
(traded 2014 Thor Challenger)
US Army 70-73 Retired LEO
Joe-FL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2016, 09:34 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 5,115
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-FL View Post
Since I don't have a Safe-T installed I don't know the exact answer. But I have looked at them and they are not built to lock the wheels straight. I am pretty sure you can turn the steering freely. If you are traveling down the interstate at 65mph and you think one of the maneuvers available to you is swerving, like you may be able to do in your car, then you have no business ever getting behind the wheel of a large MH anyway.

Chance, since your signature never lists what type of unit you may have, only lists "still looking", are you basing the opinions on certain articles, experience in a 28' MH, 38' MH, 45' DP?????

I can assure you that based on real life experiences (retired IL State Police) that for the average driver a front steer tire blow out is much more dangerous for trucks, RV's, cars, and motorcycles alike, rather than a rear blow out on a vehicle. Why do you think Federal transportation regulations (plus many states) require a different tread depth on front tires than rear tires on commercial vehicles?
The highlighted part is a fair question. I started driving trucks as a teenager, initially before I even had a license. Sometimes pulling trailers with very heavy loads. As in heavy tractors.

During high school I often drove large furniture delivery trucks; both on the highway and in cities. If you think backing up a modern motorhome at a campground is tough, try a large truck onto someone's driveway or yard that's not set up for it. And without aid of rear-view cameras and sometimes without a spotter.

As an adult I've owned and rented many motorhomes and trailers, and have driven them all over the US without issue. Not a single incident.

For years I've been driving an E-350 Ford van out of choice. I like small. When I need more space I just rent it. Within reason I can buy (or rent) and drive anything I may want -- I just don't like what they are making recently.


Having answered that question, my opinions on steering stabilizers have nothing to do with my driving experience or knowledge (or lack thereof if you prefer to see it that way). My opinions are mostly based on an engineering education that included the study of dampers. What they do and what they can't do. It also included how they work.

No doubt as a policeman you've been at more crashes than I have, but I honestly don't see the relevance, or how that would make you better at understanding vehicle dynamics.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2016, 11:28 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: Georgia
Posts: 2,540
THOR #4735
I will weigh in here because I not only have owned a FordV10 ClassA, but also my current Thor Palazzo Diesel Pusher(Cummins 300hp).

While there is little comparison to a gas unit/ford chassis versus the ride of a diesel pusher/freightliner chassis with air brakes and air bags, the ClassA gas units made by any manufacturer are ALL the same, ride and handling wise, no matter whether a Coachmen, or a Newmar, or anything in between.

I now also DELIVER these units from the factory to dealers all over the country and can attest that whether it's a Fleetwood Bounder, a Newmar CanyonStar, or any ClassA gas from any manufacturer, the factory can not really do anything about the actual basic ride of the unit itself, only what they build on top of it.

Yes, they all are pushed by the wind, pushed by other traffic, and ride pretty rough over anything other than completely smooth surfaced roads. They are loud, compared to DPs, but also have very loud gear downshifting when on even slight hills, especially if you leave it on cruise control.

Having said that, ClassA gas units are probably MUCH easier to work on and diagnose issues with than the diesels, especially rear radiator DPs. The controls are the same/similar to your truck or car, and it's much less daunting than when first driving DPs. The price also reflects the lower cost engines and systems with gas engines.
__________________
TurnerFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 01:15 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 37GT
State: Florida
Posts: 809
THOR #5246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
The highlighted part is a fair question. I started driving trucks as a teenager, initially before I even had a license. Sometimes pulling trailers with very heavy loads. As in heavy tractors.

During high school I often drove large furniture delivery trucks; both on the highway and in cities. If you think backing up a modern motorhome at a campground is tough, try a large truck onto someone's driveway or yard that's not set up for it. And without aid of rear-view cameras and sometimes without a spotter.

As an adult I've owned and rented many motorhomes and trailers, and have driven them all over the US without issue. Not a single incident.

For years I've been driving an E-350 Ford van out of choice. I like small. When I need more space I just rent it. Within reason I can buy (or rent) and drive anything I may want -- I just don't like what they are making recently.


Having answered that question, my opinions on steering stabilizers have nothing to do with my driving experience or knowledge (or lack thereof if you prefer to see it that way). My opinions are mostly based on an engineering education that included the study of dampers. What they do and what they can't do. It also included how they work.

No doubt as a policeman you've been at more crashes than I have, but I honestly don't see the relevance, or how that would make you better at understanding vehicle dynamics.
At the risk of turning this into a contest to see "how far each of us can pee", I only responded to your first post due to the inaccurate statement:

"If simply keeping a tire pointed ahead was better, then why are rear blowouts more dangerous on most 4-wheel vehicles."

I do not have any type of degree or computer model that would indicate that to me. I too began driving big rigs at an early age, when my government decided I would look good in green. Drove in Germany, Viet Nam, and then all over the U.S. Early 70's began my 34 year observation period of how people react when one of their front tires suddenly deflate at highway speeds. In about 50% of the cases that front tires blow out will result in some type of bleeding. In about 90% of the cases that back tire blow out will result in someone changing a tire along the shoulder.

Not only is your statement false, it is dangerous to mislead folks driving large heavy motorhomes. Any piece of equipment, like the Safe-T, that would help in the least little bit in the case of a front tire rapid deflation should not be discouraged. Remember, there is a wide range of folks driving these RV's, from 30 year old professional truck driver's to 85 year old grandma's.


Now can we get back to the intent or my original post?
__________________
Full Time in 2017 Newmar Ventana 4369
pulling a 24' enclosed (Mini Cooper/Harley/Kayak)
(traded 2014 Thor Challenger)
US Army 70-73 Retired LEO
Joe-FL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 02:34 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 5,115
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-FL View Post
....cut....

Opinions please.
Yeah, next time write:

"Opinions that agree with me please"
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 03:58 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
TyCreek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.2
State: Idaho
Posts: 533
THOR #1944
Now that ^^^ cracks me up

Recommendations to blindly add a stabilizer to fix a chassis handling issue is simply bad advice. Good advice would be to "ensure" there are no chassis issues first. Stabilizers can mask issues that can increase the probability for a blowout.

To fine tune a chassis, consider disconnecting your steering shock so you can feel the behavior.

Personally I like a heavy dampened stabilizer/shock but also experienced a masked chassis issue on a brand new RV with STP unit added that I later discovered as excessive tire wear. That was an example where my adding the STP was actually a dangerous choice because I used it to "fix" a chassis issue. It allowed me to blissfully drive comfortably down the road. For me as the driver it worked wonderfully and initially I became one of the religious folk preaching the praises of STP ... until the realization of increased blowout risk set in.

Look at a stabilizer for what it really is ... they are simply dampeners for the link arm with choices of biasing and shock valving preferences. They do not appropriately fix bushings, lash or alignments that are out of spec.
__________________
Axis 24.2 "was" tug'n a JK
TyCreek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 04:54 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
petew's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Vegas 24.1
State: North Carolina
Posts: 292
THOR #5374
We purchased our Vegas 24.1 at a dealership that was 3 hours drive from our home. The trip home exposed some handling characteristics that I did not like but I figured they went with driving a large loaf of bread at 65 mph.

Shortly there after I checked the tire pressures (they were in spec) ,had the alignment checked (it was also in spec) and I installed a Safe-T-Plus . I did the job myself and was very careful about getting it calibrated .

We just got back from a 2000 mile trip with our Vegas and can tell you that the Safe-T-Plus cleaned up the handling issues and made the Vegas a pleasure to drive. It does take a little more effort to make a hard turn because you are fighting the STP to some degree but the highway performance is worth that slight increase in effort.

I highly recommend the Safe-T-Plus .
__________________
petew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 05:43 PM   #36
Kev
Senior Member
 
Kev's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Windsport
State: Florida
Posts: 742
THOR #3918
Stp

Quote:
Originally Posted by petew View Post
We purchased our Vegas 24.1 at a dealership that was 3 hours drive from our home. The trip home exposed some handling characteristics that I did not like but I figured they went with driving a large loaf of bread at 65 mph.

Shortly there after I checked the tire pressures (they were in spec) ,had the alignment checked (it was also in spec) and I installed a Safe-T-Plus . I did the job myself and was very careful about getting it calibrated .

We just got back from a 2000 mile trip with our Vegas and can tell you that the Safe-T-Plus cleaned up the handling issues and made the Vegas a pleasure to drive. It does take a little more effort to make a hard turn because you are fighting the STP to some degree but the highway performance is worth that slight increase in effort.

highly recommend the Safe-T-Plus .
Had the exact same results on my Vegas 25.2. I would also highly recommend the alignment check first. I also add the Sumo Springs a couple of weeks later.

Kev
__________________
Kev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 07:55 PM   #37
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Freedom elite 26he
State: Iowa
Posts: 34
THOR #5830
Joe-Fl
I just got a new 2017 freedom elite 26he, and do not know anything about MH. can you explain to a newbie what the CHF and saf-t-plus upgrades are?
__________________
Rickosterloh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 11:09 PM   #38
Axis/Vegas Enthusiast
 
JamieGeek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Michigan
Posts: 9,432
THOR #1150
Since the Freedom Elite's are Class-C's on the E-Series chassis the CHF (Cheap Handling Fix) doesn't apply (its for F-53 chassis).

The Saf-t-plus is a steering stabilizer that replaces the OEM stabilizer. It provides resistance to sharp steering road inputs (like when one of the front tires blows out--of course someone else will reply with a more specific description).
__________________
2014 Thor Axis 24.1
2021 Mach-E
blog - https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
JamieGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2016, 11:54 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
SuperD's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2017 Windsport 29M
State: Indiana
Posts: 3,692
THOR #5196
Sorry, but I fail to understand how a rear blowout is more dangerous.
__________________
USMC Veteran
FMCA 101070S

Dave & Myra
One day your life will flash before your eyes,
make sure it's worth watching!
SuperD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 12:02 PM   #40
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 37GT
State: Florida
Posts: 809
THOR #5246
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyCreek View Post
Now that ^^^ cracks me up

Recommendations to blindly add a stabilizer to fix a chassis handling issue is simply bad advice. Good advice would be to "ensure" there are no chassis issues first. Stabilizers can mask issues that can increase the probability for a blowout.

To fine tune a chassis, consider disconnecting your steering shock so you can feel the behavior.

Personally I like a heavy dampened stabilizer/shock but also experienced a masked chassis issue on a brand new RV with STP unit added that I later discovered as excessive tire wear. That was an example where my adding the STP was actually a dangerous choice because I used it to "fix" a chassis issue. It allowed me to blissfully drive comfortably down the road. For me as the driver it worked wonderfully and initially I became one of the religious folk preaching the praises of STP ... until the realization of increased blowout risk set in.

Look at a stabilizer for what it really is ... they are simply dampeners for the link arm with choices of biasing and shock valving preferences. They do not appropriately fix bushings, lash or alignments that are out of spec.
I think some of the experienced folks on here (which isn't me) have made it clear that you should have your front end aligned and make sure everything is working before setting out on the CHF and add-ons.

When I started this post I knew my coach needed some handling improvements and wanted suggestions from folks that had been through it. My buddy and I did the CHF front and rear. While under the unit we inspected everything. In about an hour the front end will be aligned and the professionals will be inspecting everything again.

If others have installed the Safe-T or other devises and are happy, or not with them I am glad to hear about it. If someone has no experience with adding these things or doesn't even have a large MH with handling issues, then don't try to hijack the thread with false facts about front end blow outs being less dangerous compared to rear ones.
__________________
Full Time in 2017 Newmar Ventana 4369
pulling a 24' enclosed (Mini Cooper/Harley/Kayak)
(traded 2014 Thor Challenger)
US Army 70-73 Retired LEO
Joe-FL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 03:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2